I can not understand what you two are upto. so much of energy being spent writing, quoting to argue some points, those are already established. if you do not take it, that is any argument will not make it acceptable to you, either it is our religion or Bush's policies. Mr. Turkman if - 'I had finished ALL my religious education at 16, .. and become mufti', - I have a serious reservation. All the Imams spent their life time to learn our religion and its values, is it your arrogance or carelessness. Your comments on invasion of Afghanistan is misplaced and completely aligned you with the Bush doctrine or its policies, whatever you say. You're completely sold out, your total allegiance who ever with, but not certainly with our people or religion. That only I can read from your write up. Best of luck, may Allah guide you towards humanity and your religion.
--- On Wed, 4/6/08, S Turkman <turkman@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
From: S Turkman <turkman@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [ALOCHONA] Human Rights and Migrants
To: alochona@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "7 ro" <sa7rong@yahoogroups.com>, "mo t" <motamoth-owner@yahoogroups.com>, "u t" <uttorshuri@yahoogroups.com>, dhakamails@yahoogroups.com, "t t" <tritiomatra@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, 4 June, 2008, 9:41 PM
My comments are inserted below.
mufassil islam <mufassili@hotmail. com> wrote: Dear Mr. Turkman:
I must bring to your notice that you are not aware that calling someone racist is a crime (eh as per your law of the land under Law of Tort) but not calling Molla or religious fanatic and it will take pages to rpove my argument. TURKMAN: Calling someone a Racist is not a crime. Proving to be a Racist is a Crime. I have called Bush a Moron more than few times on Internet Forums of Americans and I live in USA. Nobody came to arrest me. I have called some Punjabis living in USA, 'Racist Ethnic Bigots' and 'Tribal Brain Savages' on more than a few Internet Forums numerous times. I have never been arrested. ------------ --------- --------- -- Hence I would request you to refrain from using such words. I am rather enjoying my arguments with you and I am rational enough to keep it that way. Nobody is perfect and not all of my logics have to be accepted by you or anyone but I would - as always would prefer data based responses which you always refrain from giving. Therefore, I will now embark again on refuting and answering your counter-arguments. TURKMAN: I agree. Nobody's perfect. ------------ --------- -------
1. I am not againt any colour and I think you need to read my letters again but what I am against is racism from any colour and unfortunately we - the people of the East are on the firing line. There are racism in the form of jealousy in every society - even among Bangladeshis and I think you have already read my article 'Being Fair to Fairness' in daily star - if haven't, please read again to my mentality. But we do not kick about people for that. In the west there have been several racial attacks on migrants. I myself was a victim and if you want you can call the London (Mile End) Police Station to varify the CCTV and I will give you the authority to do that. I wonder whether you have seen the British Big Brother programme on national TV where Shilpa Shetty was racially abused by some white pretty girls live on telecast. If you did not - I refer you to any search engine to type Shilpa Shetty and racial abuse to find details. It is true that law and education has boosted morality to many western people and they are generally ofcourse much well behave than many Eastern people - but true morality lies in helping the poor by cancelling the G8 or doing more in Global Worming and sticking to Kyoto Protocol and helping Africans who never even had a chance to life. Bill Gates can feed half of Africa with his money - what does he do? He hoards it in Banks. I am ofcourse not defending the Saudis or other Super Rich Bangladeshis. TURKMAN: Bill Gates spends hundreds of millions for Economic Development programs in Africa. Please learn a bit more about him ...! ------------ --------- -------
2. When I made comments about US bombing million Afghanis - very well even you know I did not mean they killed million Afghanis - rather million suffered the torments of the invasion. TURKMAN: Even this is not true. All Afghans were relieved that they would no more be starving. Their mothers, wives, sisters, daughters and they themselves would not get beat-up on the streets by Fashion Police of Taliban. They would not be forced to do 'Nmaaz' according to Taliban way of praying in the Mosques and would not be herded like Cattle to Mosques at every Prayer Time. Haven't you been reading too much pro Taliban Mollaa Propaganda, sir? ------------ --------- --------- --------- -- I am all againt fanatic Talibans but that does not mean you just push aside the UN - does it? Do you not realise what implications it has created on global international law? What if India now invades Bangladesh with the excuse of religious fanatics operating in Bangladesh when they have their own Hindu fanatic who burnt thousand Muslims in Gujrat? TURKMAN: Your analogy is wrong. Of course if a Terrorist Group of a Saudi based in Bangladesh causes a 9/11 in India and Bangladesh refuses to deport him back to Saudi Arabia or put that man on trial despite receiving proof, definitely India has a right to invade Bangladesh. Would we ignore if the same is done by Chakma Tribes to Dhaka? ------------ --------- --------
3. I am happy to know that you never liked Bush and you realised that this has ushered the downfall of the US. But I personally do not want US to fall as I have my child who is an American. All I wich for and it has started that the US people wake up to international reality. TURKMAN: They are awake. Its just that their leaders have kept fooling them. ------------ --------- ------
4. I have been working on Social Anthopology for decades and on religious issues as well. I am not blind and refuse to be called so when I am - as always providing evidence to my assertions as that is my habit and part of my professional conduct. When I say Jesus was not white - he was not white. My basis? Read the Bible.
Revelation 1:14-15 â€" His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters.You tell me. What is brass colour? He was tant. TURKMAN: Brass out of Furnace is shiny gold color with reddish tint, not tan. All White people being too much in Sun look Reddish or Reddish Brown not Brown or Dark. Even Ancestors of many Brown people in Indian Sub Continent used to White, when they moved in thousands of years ago. The real dark or Blacks in the Sub Continent could be a separate race but all the rest are a part of White Race. ------------ --------- --------- -- Well if you want to say Bible was wrong - then the verse like many other verses should be thrown out. Or were the Western priests who were so crazy in having a western jesus - knew that people will be finding out after many years that Jesus was white. Please forward me you unambiguous research work. I am waiting to read it - no matter how long. TURKMAN: You are knit-picking. You mis-translated one part of Old Testament and ignored the other. Were there any Jews before birth of Prophet Ibrahim? Why you missed his and his wife Hzt. Sarah's Physical Appearance? Was not Prophet Ishaq their son? Was not Prophet Israel (Yaqoob) Ishaq's son? Don't Jews start from word Israel? Were Hzt. Israel's sons Hzt. Yousef and Hzt. Ben Yamin dark? Mariam was Niece of Prophet Idris, the Chief Kahan of 1st Qibla of Moslims called BaiTol MoqaDDis. Was he Brown or dark? Was Hzt. Mariam Brown or dark? Do all the Jews, who have lived in Jerusalem since those days, Brown or dark? Please stop boasting about your knowledge of Old Testament, when you are using your personal Racial Prejudice to declare Jesus a Black or Brown Man ...! ------------ --------- --------- ---
5. You have already framed pre-conceived ideas about me that I am a racist man which is stopping you to think rationally. Please note that Muslim countries were not chaining Africans to build the Subway system in the UK and USA and they were not enslaving the Africans in their own country as to a horrendous numbers like the traders in the West. TURKMAN: I would provide all the proof against the above if you could. ------------ --------- --------- ------
6. I hope you will also refrain from illogical hurling of abuses. I am not hiding on my verse and I am whole-heartedly in Quran. If you think any verse of the Quran is obsolete - I challenge you to mention one. TURKMAN: Qur'an 9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and (then)ambush them using every stratagem of war." ... Do you want more ...? ------------ --------- --------- --------- -- People change - systems change - but morality and peinciples remain unchanged. I am the guy who read Satanic Verses in Bangladesh when it was banned and I am the guy who has always kept himself abreast with opposing views.
7. Mr. Turkman - it seems you are a nice man at heart as tears roll down your cheek at proverty but it is about time as well you should read the Holy Quran with Tafsir and a teacher. Have you tried? Do you feel ashamed to read it as others - may be even in the family laughs at you saying - that's a good Muslim - not a terrorist. Read and then decided. TURKMAN: You should do that instead of telling me this. I had finished all my Religious Education at 16 and had earned even degree of Mufti. ------------ --------- --- "And when does Quran becomes understandable, just by the tongue we cannot understand Quran, or just by listening we cannot try to understand Quran. The center which Allah (swt) has granted us to understand the Quran is our heart (qalb). But on this heart, many seasons pass over it, many a harvesting goes over this, it has different states. Sometimes this heart becomes very hard “Qal Hijaara aw ashaddo qaswatan�, sometimes it is like a stone, infact even harder than a stone. Sometimes this heart is “Am Alaa Quloobin Aqfaluha� means sometimes the hearts gets locked, and sometimes the hearts develop dirt and filth. According to the expression of the Quran “Rana ala Quloobehim�, which means layers of dirt has developed on their hearts. Their hearts are sealed by Allah (swt), “Khatamaallaho Ala Quloobehim�, the sealed hearts. That’s it, some hearts are stones, some are harder than stones, some hearts are those which are locked, some are those on which seals have been placed, some are those on which dirt has developed, some hearts are those which has developed multitude layers. Now to get these hearts associated with the Quran, to bring them near to the Quran, Allah (swt) has granted us this opportunity (this holy month). Without our asking, just by realizing our needs the essence of Allah (swt) has blessed us with this opportunity. This holy of month of Ramadhan is the month of spring of hearts. This means those hardened hearts, those harder than stone hearts, those locked and sealed hearts, and these also in this month become tender."
About your other assertions - if you still remain unconvinced - and if you think you will be alienated by even your own children as they are so called moderate Muslims??? Please wake up. I did. As a Muslim brother I welcome you as well. There is no pride in accepting logic.
Sura Al Araf says:
174. Thus do We explain the Ayâ´ (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail, so that they may turn (unto the truth).175. And recite (O Muhammad  ) to them the story of him to whom We gave Our Ayâ´ (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), but he threw them away, so Shaitâ® (Satan) followed him up, and he became of those who went astray.176. And had We willed, We would surely have elevated him therewith but he clung to the earth and followed his own vain desire. So his description is the description of a dog: if you drive him away, he lolls his tongue out, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls his tongue out. Such is the description of the people who reject Our Ayâ´ (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.). So relate the stories, perhaps they may reflect.I think I do not have to prove that I am a Human Rights Advocate, rather my crtifiactes do not count. But endeavours should count towards that. Mufassil M M Islam Human Rights Advocate TURKMAN: My conclusion is, you are actually Brain-washed by JehaaDi Mollaas. Please stop conversing with me because I don't think, you can not be straightened out. I do not want to waste more time answering your crazy theories.
To: alochona@yahoogroup s.com Thanks for addressing me like this. Moslims normally get so mad if someone opposes their views that they start throwing obscenities at them instead. My comments are inserted below wipe-out your crazy Racist and Religious theories, sir. mufassil islam <mufassili@hotmail. com> wrote: Dear Mr. Turkman:
Thank you for a categorical response. I do support some of your views but for the rest - note the following:
1. Go back to Bangladesh? Why? After the west has sucked our blood for over tow hundred years and now telling us we were ruled for less than one hundred? looted our Kohinoor and crowned the Queen? Go back? This going back notion has crumbled the US economy to dire straits and put the history's worst and most unpopular man as President (even now voted vy Americans as the most unpopular) and he keeps on referring to stupid remarks like being a broker in Palestinian causes and taking the sides of the Zews openly and saying - they are the people of the book. What a fanatic. History will throw him to the bin when he refers to history as 'who cares about history - we will all be dead'. An idiot man who ravished lands for a handfull of fanatics who cannot be controlled with all the money and CIA power and you have to bomb millions of Afghnis. TURKMAN: Your Knowledge is superficial. Proof? "Only 1400 of our men have been dead ...", statement of Ambassador of Talibani Afghanistan to Pakistan published in all Pak Newspapers a month after fall of his government and you claim, USA bombed millions of Afghans. ... Though I was not against bombing of crazy Taliban, I was against invasion of Iraq. Please tell me, how can God start fall of nations like USA, if He does not make its people elect someone like Bush Jr. to run their country in 21st Century West? ------------ --------- --------- ----
2. I wonder how US people were fooled again in voting this man for his utterly fear factor game of politics. 'Vote me I will save you'. I wonder why most of the Americans hate him now. Have you woke up or are you still in love with this man? TURKMAN: I had hated him before he got elected as an American Citizen. ------------ --------- --------- -----
3. It is true that we have serious social stigmas and I abhor the idea that the faiere the prettier. Look we have a white Jesus from the middle east with blue eyes. The answer I had from a Baptist Chrich in UK - Jesus cannot be ugly. Hypocrats. I challenged the 'fair and lovely product' in Bangladesh and its publicity and many medias now have banned the product's advertisement which uses to decrade the less white skin. TURKMAN: Look. It would make this post very long if I published my research to prove that not only Jesus but also Prophet Ibrahim was a White man. Stop being a Racist ...! In Mexico, they portray Jesus as a brown man but its because of the hate against Whites, not because of their research. Modern Scientific DNA Gnome research also proves that Jews are not brown people and Jesus was a Jew by birth and had nothing to do with Africa or India to be Black or Brown. ------------ --------- --------- ----- My following article shows the views: http://www.thedaily star.net/ law/2007/ 11/02/opinion. htm But do you know the reason? We are so much in love with the West that we have lost our self-esteem. The ruler was white - the whiter - the better. Britush standard specification - the correct - the Western democrarcy - even if many people take to the streets against the war in London - democracy delivers the right voice - well the leaders Tony Blair said - a leaders at times have to sacrifice popularity for something good? Huh? Isn't popularity the basis of democracy? And my guess was right - you do have a personality problem - you are in a limbo - you do have Western people in the family - no wonder how true I was. But I think you have been blinded. You want to remain close to them more - you want to become unquestionably part of the West by westernising your thoughts. How else I could pry that information out. Your ideas have been blinded with foolishness and apathy. TURKMAN: Are we at some kind of Racial War with the West, sir? You are proving again that you are a Racist. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --
4. Why US allows migrants? Alas you do not know the history of constitution. You do not know how Mohicans and all other races were systematically wiped out in thousands from Americans. I request the readers to read history of any country especially of any South Anmerican countries in Wikipedia - how they were brutalised. The land belongs to all the God's people - not only to Europeans. They just cannot go there a few hundred years ago and seal our entry by saying ' Go back' - Immigration law applies. What a stupid idea. Only until a few years ago - the american newspapers used to allow only one page out of 1000 pages of their daily newspapers - for international news. What a boxed up arrogant world. But good thing is they are reading more international news now - in fact more than any other nation. Are you? TURKMAN: Of course European Colonists were Racists in 15th Century and much later just like we still are but why are you claiming they still are, when they are no more and since 1952 USA has been permitting citizenship to people of all Races? Have we reached 1600's, when Christians had started granting immigration of Non Whites and Non Christians in their lands yet? If so, please tell me the name of such a Moslim Country ...! Which Moslim Country is open for any Bangladeshi to Immigrate for good to? In all advanced Christian Countries, Moslim Immigrants make at least Minimum Wage and the one's who still can't afford are helped by charity of the state in the shape of Cash Welfare monthly payments, Food Stamps, Subsidized Housing, free Medical, free lunch for their school-going children, no School Fees etc. Please tell me, why Bangladeshi Immigrants to Pakistan live under Tin Roofs in Karachi next to 'Un-touchable' Schedule Caste 'Bhangi' or Shit Picking people, working as House Maids and Cleaning Men and when I was on an assignment in Karachi, why my Teenage Bangladeshi Maid was surprised to learn that some Bangladeshis can really be rich enough to afford her? She was also surprised to learn that some Bangladeshis could be White. She was so poor that looking at Dry Kidney Beans and Black Eye Peas, she asked me, what were they? Tears were in my eyes after hearing her question. ------------ --------- --------- ---
5. If you are so much in love with the west - and hate our ethos and morals so much - why bother coming to Alochona online? Sorry I had to be harsh - bt your unfounded brandishing of people like me with a mere excuse of Osama or Mulla does not stand logic. You have simply lost the plot with your shouts.
Mufassil M M Islam
Human Rights Advocate TURKMAN: Its a habit of Racists and Mollaas to be harsh because they are only following some of their 7th Century obsolete verses in Qoraan. Since they are brain-washed, its hard for them to find humility and Human Instincts. They take a refuge pretending to be Human Rights Advocates just to oppose right-mindedness in the West using all their hate against the West with punity in this disguise hiding their Racism and Mollaaism that they have been raised in. Allaho Akbar ...!
From: turkman@sbcglobal. net
My comments are inserted below.
mufassil islam <mufassili@hotmail. com> wrote: Dear Mr. Aziz, Mr. Turkman and Other Readers:
It is easy to get carried away into the vortex of conflicting issues if we do not take on board, patience and constructive critocims of opposing view holders on board.
I agree that the nourishment of freedom of speech in EU (sorry but I do have further reservations about the US) is held high but these rights are often manipulated and misguided in the name of atrocious laws as rightly said by Karl Marx once that law is the toll of oppression by the ruler. Al must agree that during and soon after second world war - may fundamental human rights were currauled even for the UK citizens in UK for the sake of national security and I believe these sorts of checks should be allowed when national security is doomed but the question is for how long and for how much? TURKMAN: Until the problem exists. ------------ --------- --------- ---- The recent atrocities and threats of atrocities in the West has very reasonable justifications of putting a check on people at random or even basing on their religious and national entities whilst visiting the West - esxpecially the US. I was more than once checked by the authorities and I have had no reason to worry as the authorities did explain that it was a random checking even though it did appear to me that the system did target me. It is also true that the criminals do not necessarily have to wear a beard to pose a threat and even may be of European origin. TURKMAN: I think, profiling is a better way and they should only check the teens to the ones up to 38 years old because all the Terrorists are covered in that age group. Women and Children should be spared because not many children and women have blown themselves up. The problem is, I have seen a 90 years old White American Lady being picked for special screening and a famous Jewish Movie Actor here in USA. ------------ --------- --------- --
But it is not true as well that we are not curtailed of our freedom of expressions in the West. It is not at all right to presume that our thoughts can be told at full. Here are some examples:
The issue of Palestinians blowing themselves up - although I do not support the act at all but it is also true that these acts do emanate from decades of utter frustration and from series of torture by the Israeli regime which is being backed blindly by the US government. Mrs. Blair was subjected to severe criticisms and even calls were made by the media to boycot her when she had expressed that she did feel the utter frustration of the Palestinians. TURKMAN: Palestinian cause is a victim of 9/11. ------------ --------- --------- --
There are criminals and crazy people in Iraq who are against peace but its is also true that there are people in that country who want to see the Americans go and if they declare war and pick up arms in defence of the liberty of their motherland - West will never allow them to be called 'freedom fighters' as under the 'glorification' clause of the Terrorims Act 2006 in UK or under the Homeland Security Act of the US. An example of this is the comments against George Galloway MP (UK) when he had done so. What about many MPs in UK who had lost their party nominations after they had mentioned that the UK parliament was a poodle of the zionist regime? Or what about the Historian who had questioned the depth of the authenticity of the German atrocities on the zews? Or what about the several examples of money lending scandals from the zewish peers in UK and what about Mr. Lor Levi being posted as a Minister even though he was part of the money lending scandal in the British Government? TURKMAN: Democracy is, what majority of people think, not what you think. Osama and Mollaas should have thought about it before starting it. ------------ --------- --------- ---
I don't know why Mr. Turkman talks as always baselessly and without examples. I challenge that the Western view is not democratic. TURKMAN: Whichever system creates a better society and keeps people satisfied giving them all their rights is Democratic. Does any of our systems do that? If you do not like Western views, go back to Bangladesh and fight with your Mollaas ...! ------------ --------- ------ We do go their for practical means of survitude and benefits of this world but that does not mean we the people of the East are blindly unethical. What do you call the US policy or the Amnesty International' s report about US being the worst violators of Human Rights in the world? TURKMAN: Not really 'the worst'. USA is the only country of the world where Illegal Aliens have a right to come on the streets to protest and vandalize demanding they should be granted citizenship. Tell me, which country of the world permits this kind of attitude? ------------ --------- -------- If you do not know the statistics - please ask me brother but Mr. Turkman's utter use of bad and vulgar language proves the point that either he has a close relative in the family who is White Christian American and that has pushed him to be utterly biased or he has lost the plot simply because he is uninformed. We do not have any grudges about white, yellow or blue or even against people of other faiths but we must not be carried away blindly. TURKMAN: Yeah, this is why, when I was a Teenager, my country's people used to make fun of me because of my too fair complexion and good looks that my mother must have had slept with an Iranian to have a boy like me. Of course, I had Anglo-Indian Christian Friends before I arrived in USA and all my wife's relatives and a lot of my friends are White American Christians and they are a lot better people than my Daishi Moslim, Hindu and Sikh friends. ------------ --------- --------- --
As for Islam I have only a few excerpts from the Quran and that should suffice for Muslims travelling to other country:
Sura Al Araf:
On Entry into new city:
161. And (remember) when it was said to them: "Dwell in this town (Jerusalem) and eat therefrom wherever you wish, and say, '(O All�h) forgive our sins'; and enter the gate prostrate (bowing with humility). We shall forgive you your wrong-doings. We shall increase (the reward) for the good-doers."
And we must respect their laws but not at the cost of our souls and you want us out of there? TURKMAN: That Verse was for the city, where 1st Qiblaa of Moslims was located, not for any Western City. Allah doesn't consider those Moslims, who live amongst Non Moslims. Read Verse 8 : 72 ...! I'm violating that verse myself because I think, its now obsolete. I haven't sold my soul. Your Soul is possessed by Demon of Tribalism and backwardness and this is why becoming civilized means selling your soul to you. ------------ --------- --------- ---- Surprised - how you became a poodle as you decided not to enter into the world of intellectual battle. Allah made us poor financially but spiritually rich so that we can all work for the spread of Islam - the only peaceful life. Read Sura Al Araf it also teaches us to be patient as people will surely hurl abuses. TURKMAN: Spread the word for what? To make USA become another corrupt country like Bangladesh or Pakistan? And I can see, how patient you are by hurling abuses at me, calling me a Poodle. ------------ --------- --------- ---
I don't know under law of which country the Government can cease passports for ever as suggested by Mr. Turkman but is a good advise to lecture the prospective migrant to advise them about foreign culture as adopted by Phillipines (Post Departure Seminar) - Mr. Turkman you forgot to give an example and I am giving it for all.
Read my latest article
http://www.thedaily star.net/ law/2008/ 05/05/index. htm
Sincerely,
Mufassil M M Islam
Human Rights Advocate TURKMAN: You are again showing lack of your General Knowledge. Passport has been Government Property of the country that issues it since the first Passport was issued in this world. It can be confiscated, whenever any issuing Government wants to. Go Read the Booklet smart Alec ...! Passport is not a right. Its a privilege. Stop acting like a Know-all, when you are a Knows-nothing ...! Best of all, learn to spell words instead of giving readers such a hard time trying to understand, what the hell you have written ...! You have more than a dozen spelling mistakes in your above post. Please do not converse with me Mollaa, I have no time for illiterate ignorant nuts like you.
From: turkman@sbcglobal. net
I have no idea, why these people can find a Conspiracy Theory behind everything that goes wrong with our saintly people anywhere. Nilkanto Chowdhury <nilkanto@myway. com> wrote: There are people who are working against Bangladeshi in Middle East so that they can ruin Bangladeshi job market there and get benifite from that. Our government and people should speak up about that. Please be aware of that kind of people and media. Well, people from all nations are doing nusty things. We don't blame the full nation for that, do we? Why then Bangladeshi?
| . 
Get Started! |
