Banner Advertiser

Saturday, December 17, 2016

[mukto-mona] In Pakistan, five girls were killed for having fun. Then the story took an even darker twist.



    

In Pakistan, five girls were killed for having fun. Then the story took an even darker twist. 

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - It was just a few seconds, a video clip of several young women laughing and clapping to music, dressed for a party or a wedding in orange headscarves and robes with floral patterns. Then a few more seconds of a young man dancing alone, apparently in the same room. The cellphone video was made six years ago, in a village deep in Kohistan, a rugged area of northwest Pakistan. It was the last time the young women, known only as Bazeegha, Sareen Jan, Begum Jan, Amina and Shaheen, have ever been definitively seen alive. What happened to them remains a mystery. Their fates have been shrouded by cultural taboos, official inertia, implacable resistance from elders and religious

Washington Post

In Pakistan, five girls were killed for having fun. Then the story took an even darker twist. 

Washington Post                                  

                                                                                 
                                                                              
                   December 17 at 7:00 AM 

 It was just a few seconds, a video clip of several young women laughing and clapping to music, dressed for a party or a wedding in orange headscarves and robes with floral patterns. Then a few more seconds of a young man dancing alone, apparently in the same room.

The cellphone video was made six years ago, in a village deep in Kohistan, a rugged area of northwest Pakistan. It was the last time the young women, known only as Bazeegha, Sareen Jan, Begum Jan, Amina and Shaheen, have ever been definitively seen alive.

What happened to them remains a mystery. Their fates have been shrouded by cultural taboos, official inertia, implacable resistance from elders and religious leaders suspected of ordering their deaths, and elaborate subterfuges by the families who reportedly carried out those orders.

Even in Pakistan, where hundreds of  "honor killings" are reported every year, this case was extreme. According to court filings and interviews with people who investigated it, the families confined the girls for weeks, threw boiling water and hot coals on them, then killed them and buried them somewhere in the Kohistan hills.

Later, when investigators appeared, relatives and community leaders insisted that the girls were still alive and produced a second set of similar-looking girls to prove it. They even disfigured one girl's thumbprints so she couldn't be checked against the identity of the victim she was supposed to impersonate.

The story illustrates many of the reasons Pakistani officials have failed to curb the problem of honor killings. These include the cruel sway of traditional tribal councils, known as jirgas, over uneducated villagers; the lengths to which such leaders may go to defy state authority; and the casual worthlessness they assign to the rights, lives and even identities of young women. 

Today, the truth is finally beginning to emerge, mostly through the efforts of a few individuals including Afzal Kohistani, a young man whose brothers were killed as a result of the incident. He spent years seeking help from local and provincial officials, then petitioned the Supreme Court. In 2012, his case was dismissed, but last month the high court reopened it and ordered a new investigation that has produced a chilling report.

"This has destroyed my family. The girls are dead, my brothers have been killed and nothing has been done to bring justice or protect us," said Kohistani, 26, who has received death threats. "I know I will probably be killed, too, but it doesn't matter," he said in an interview last week. "What happened is wrong, and it has to change."

Renewed judicial interest in these long-ago events coincided with another encouraging development: the passage of a new law in Parliament that strengthened judicial powers in honor-killing cases. Often, even when such crimes manage to reach the courts, there is no punishment because the law allows victims' families to "forgive" the perpetrators — who are often their own relatives.  

The new law, passed in October, gives judges more ammunition to impose life sentences for honor killings in extreme circumstances, allowing them to overrule personal deals by making the murder a crime against the state. But supporters fear that cultural and political resistance will continue to prevent justice being done.

"We don't know yet whether the law will make much difference. Punishment is still not mandatory, and forgiveness can still negate justice," said Benazir Jatoi, a lawyer who works on women's rights. "Until there is more political will, I don't think the lives of ordinary women threatened with honor violence will change."

The Kohistan case unfolded in a conservative rural region where social mingling between genders is taboo. The girls' participation in a coed singing party was risky enough, but someone posted the video on the Internet, where it spread rapidly, bringing shame on their community before the vast virtual world. 


The mingling of young men and women at a village singing party, along with the spread of this

video, was considered a dishonor to their community in a conservative rural region of Pakistan. (TWP)

Go to   https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-pakistan-five-girls-were-killed-for-having-fun-then-the-story-took-an-even-darker-twist/2016/12/16/f2adbd5e-c13a-11e6-92e8-c07f4f671da4_story.html?utm_term=.d3ea76ffff33   to watch the video 

The head of the local jirga, a Muslim cleric, allegedly issued a religious decree ordering the five girls to be killed for dishonoring their tribe, along with the boy seen dancing and every member of his family. There was no resistance from the community. After the girls were disposed of, several brothers of the boy were also caught and killed. The rest of the family, including Kohistani, fled the area.

There things stood for more than a year. No crimes were reported and no one came to investigate. Kohistani, a college graduate from one of the area's wealthier families, said he repeatedly approached local and provincial officials, reporting the killings and seeking protection, but was chided for opposing the jirga's verdict. 

"No one in my district or my province has ever spoken against honor killing. They tell me I have defamed my culture, my religion, my tribe," Kohistani said this month. "Everybody knows what happened, but no one is ready to come forward. This an illegal, unconstitutional and un-Islamic tradition, but people don't even consider it a crime."

Finally, with assistance from a lawyer in Islamabad, Kohistani appealed directly to the Supreme Court. Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry, a liberal activist, personally took up the case in 2012 and ordered two fact-finding missions sent to the remote area by helicopter.  

When the visitors demanded to see the girls, their families at first refused, but eventually presented three girls and said they were the ones in the video. The three delegates had no chance to speak to the girls in private, but they compared their faces to images from the video. Two were convinced of the likenesses; the third, Farzana Bari, said she had doubts. 

"I was upset and confused. We had no translators who knew their dialect, and everyone there insisted these were the same girls," recounted Bari, an academic in Islamabad. "When we got back the second time, I filed a dissenting report, but the judge closed the case. I still feel terrible."

After that, life in the village apparently returned to normal for several years. One journalist sent photos of both groups of girls to analysts in England, who found only a 14 percent chance they were the same individuals. That evidence was taken to a provincial court, but it declined to take action. Kohistani, in the interview, named each of the original girls and their replacements, who he said were similar-looking sisters, cousins and sisters-in-law. 

Finally, last month, Kohistani's crusade got an unexpected break when the Supreme Court, under a new chief justice, agreed to accept his petition. Once more, a fact-finding mission was sent to the village. This time, it included a district judge and two police officers, armed with government ID records with the heights and thumbprints of the missing girls. 

What they encountered was hair-raising. 

In his report afterward, Kohistan Judge Shoaib Khan said the village elders were "unanimous" in insisting that the girls were alive. But two of the girls they produced were much younger than the victims, according to their official birth dates. A third could not be identified because both thumbs had been burned; her parents insisted that it was from a cooking accident. He concluded that at least two girls did not match the ones in the video and that the others were probably also impostors.

"All this leads to the suspicious conclusion that something is wrong at bottom," Khan wrote. The case, he advised, "needs exhaustive inquiry."

On a recent day, Kohistani, wearing a conservative suit and carrying a copy of the judge's report, walked up to the Supreme Court. He smiled slightly as he shook hands with his attorney, and they went inside to wait for the next hearing. 

Pakistan honors Nobel winner in physics 37 years late. But his religion still stirs anger.                                                         
                                                                           
                                  

                                                                                 
                                                                              
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                                                                

                                                                                 
                                                                              
                                                                           
                                                                           
                                  


__._,_.___

Posted by: "Jamal G. Khan" <M.JamalGhaus@gmail.com>


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190





__,_._,___

Re: [mukto-mona] Now, America, You Know How Chileans Felt



Yes, democracy would be considered a relatively imperfect system even in a paradise setup. We simply have not figured out any better system during the last two centuries since Jefferson drafted the first draft of American constitution. Third world democracy? What is it really? Awamis stealing ballot boxes?


On Saturday, December 17, 2016 4:12 PM, "'mahfuzur@aol.com' mahfuzur@aol.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
   " It sounds like, American electoral system is no better than any third world country's system..."

Dear Anisur Rahman, perhaps you do not know the third world as well as you might believe you do. When was it you last visited your birthplace at election time or cared about finding out what goes on out there ?  Sure, sometimes the American election system ( I think that is what you meant and not the electoral) deserves two cheers instead of three. But that is at least one more than do most countries in the third world. It hurts me to say that, though.

Mahfuzur Rahman


-----Original Message-----
From: Farida Majid farida_majid@hotmail.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2016 9:54 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Now, America, You Know How Chileans Felt

 

Now, America, You Know How Chileans Felt

 

<<  Six weeks earlier, Salvador Allende, a democratic Socialist, had won the presidency in a free and fair election, in spite of the United States' spending millions of dollars on psychological warfare and misinformation to prevent his victory (we'd call it "fake news" today). Allende had campaigned on a program of social and economic justice, and we knew that the government of President Richard M. Nixon, allied with Chile's oligarchs, would do everything it could to stop Allende's nonviolent revolution from gaining power.  >>

The C.I.A. says Russia rigged the U.S. election. The same C.I.A. that helped overthrow my country's democracy.




From: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 5:39 AM
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Election Fraud in Detroit Looks 'Organized, and Government Involved'
 
 
It's an irony that, people who are involved in the voter-fraud are the people, who call themselves democrat.
Just because some democrats committed voter-fraud does not mean system is bad. Good thing about US election system is that, any candidate, even with < 1% votes, can challenge the outcome. Also, think about it - democrats are still hoping to reverse the election outcome. Where can you find such a system in the world?
Jiten Roy



From: "ANISUR RAHMAN anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Election Fraud in Detroit Looks 'Organized, and Government Involved'

 
It sounds like, American electoral system is no better than any third world country's system - vote rigging, corruption and pregnant ballot papers etc are ripe. This America wanted to sell their democracy to Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and other countries. It is a good thing that the product had been rejected by the customers.

- AR 


On Thursday, 15 December 2016, 23:49, "Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

I am sorry, I sent the mail without reference before.

This mail was especially for forever-confused Farida Majid, and others like her, who have been trying to delegitimize the US election.

 

Thanks to the recount efforts by the Dem, we can now see how they have committed voters' frauds in the last election.

 

In many polling centers at Detroit and other counties, government polling agents were piling up votes for Hillary by scanning the same vote over and over again. They repeated such scanning so many times that the total votes cast surpassed the number of total voters in the registry. Hillary got 95% of those inflated votes. Job well done, Dems! 

 

Jiten Roy



From: "Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 6:16 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona]

 
 
 
Judge Napolitano: Election Fraud in Detroit Looks 'Organized, and Government Involved'
By Debra Heine December 14, 2016
Judge Napolitano: Election Fraud in Detroit Looks 'Organized, and Government Involved'
Recount workers Sheryl Abrams, left, and Diane Russell begin the recount of Wayne County ballots during the statewide presidential election recount at Cobo Hall in Detroit Tuesday morning, Dec. 6, 2016. The presidential recount in Michigan expanded Tuesday to its largest county, which includes Detroit, and five other counties. (Tanya Moutzalias/The Grand Rapids Press via AP)
Jill Stein's recount efforts in Michigan have uncovered what looks like systemic election fraud in Detroit, where roughly 95% of the votes cast were cast for Hillary Clinton. Sixty percent of precincts in Wayne County had to be disqualified from the statewide recount because of "irregularities." According to Fox News judicial analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano, those irregularities look "organized" and "government involved."
County records prepared at the request of The Detroit News after ballot irregularities were discovered revealed that 37 percent of Detroit precincts registered more votes than voters during the election.
Detailed reports from the office of Wayne County Clerk Cathy Garrett show optical scanners at 248 of the city's 662 precincts, or 37 percent, tabulated more ballots than the number of voters tallied by workers in the poll books. Voting irregularities in Detroit have spurred plans for an audit by Michigan Secretary of State Ruth Johnson's office, Elections Director Chris Thomas said Monday.
The Detroit precincts are among those that couldn't be counted during a statewide presidential recount that began last week and ended Friday following a decision by the Michigan Supreme Court.
Democrat Hillary Clinton overwhelmingly prevailed in Detroit and Wayne County. But Republican President-elect Donald Trump won Michigan by 10,704 votes or 47.5 percent to 47.3 percent.
Overall, state records show 10.6 percent of the precincts in the 22 counties that began the retabulation process couldn't be recounted because of state law that bars recounts for unbalanced precincts or ones with broken seals.
The problems were the worst in Detroit, where discrepancies meant officials couldn't recount votes in 392 precincts, or nearly 60 percent. And two-thirds of those precincts had too many votes.
"There's always going to be small problems to some degree, but we didn't expect the degree of problem we saw in Detroit. This isn't normal," said Krista Haroutunian, chairwoman of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers.
State officials are planning to examine about 20 Detroit precincts where ballot boxes opened during the recount had fewer ballots than poll workers had recorded on Election Day.
"We're assuming there were (human) errors, and we will have discussions with Detroit election officials and staff in addition to reviewing the ballots," Thomas said.
The Detroit News last week was first to report that more than half of Detroit would be ineligible for the recount because of the irregularities. The results were based on county reports obtained by The News.
The new report, compiled by Wayne County elections officials, sheds light on the extent of the problems and shows a systematic tendency toward counting more votes than the previous Wayne County report, which didn't specify if precincts had over-counted or under-counted ballots.
Republican state senators last week called for an investigation in Wayne County, including one precinct where a Detroit ballot box contained only 50 of the 306 ballots listed in a poll book, according to an observer for Trump.
City officials have told state officials that ballots in that precinct were never taken out of a locked bin below the voting machine tabulator on Election Day, said Secretary of State spokesman Fred Woodhams.
"That's what we've been told, and we'll be wanting to verify it," Woodhams said. "At any rate, this should not have happened."
Sponsored
On Fox Business' Varney and Company Wednesday, Napolitano said that the the over-counting of Democrat votes is an example of the "government defrauding itself."
Host Stuart Varney described the type of"human error" that caused the discrepancies. "The poll worker takes the ballot, and puts it into a scanning machine, and says, 'oh good gosh, it jammed.'" The poll worker then proceeds to rescan the ballot "again, and again, and again."










__._,_.___

Posted by: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190





__,_._,___

Re: [mukto-mona] Now, America, You Know How Chileans Felt



What has happened recently in the USA is nothing compared to what happened in Chile in September 1973. So there is no reason to think that the recent US presidential election would make Americans realize how the Chileans felt in 1973.



SuBain

======================


On Saturday, December 17, 2016 4:12 PM, "'mahfuzur@aol.com' mahfuzur@aol.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
   " It sounds like, American electoral system is no better than any third world country's system..."

Dear Anisur Rahman, perhaps you do not know the third world as well as you might believe you do. When was it you last visited your birthplace at election time or cared about finding out what goes on out there ?  Sure, sometimes the American election system ( I think that is what you meant and not the electoral) deserves two cheers instead of three. But that is at least one more than do most countries in the third world. It hurts me to say that, though.

Mahfuzur Rahman


-----Original Message-----
From: Farida Majid farida_majid@hotmail.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 17, 2016 9:54 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Now, America, You Know How Chileans Felt

 

Now, America, You Know How Chileans Felt

 

<<  Six weeks earlier, Salvador Allende, a democratic Socialist, had won the presidency in a free and fair election, in spite of the United States' spending millions of dollars on psychological warfare and misinformation to prevent his victory (we'd call it "fake news" today). Allende had campaigned on a program of social and economic justice, and we knew that the government of President Richard M. Nixon, allied with Chile's oligarchs, would do everything it could to stop Allende's nonviolent revolution from gaining power.  >>

The C.I.A. says Russia rigged the U.S. election. The same C.I.A. that helped overthrow my country's democracy.




From: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2016 5:39 AM
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Election Fraud in Detroit Looks 'Organized, and Government Involved'
 
 
It's an irony that, people who are involved in the voter-fraud are the people, who call themselves democrat.
Just because some democrats committed voter-fraud does not mean system is bad. Good thing about US election system is that, any candidate, even with < 1% votes, can challenge the outcome. Also, think about it - democrats are still hoping to reverse the election outcome. Where can you find such a system in the world?
Jiten Roy



From: "ANISUR RAHMAN anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Election Fraud in Detroit Looks 'Organized, and Government Involved'

 
It sounds like, American electoral system is no better than any third world country's system - vote rigging, corruption and pregnant ballot papers etc are ripe. This America wanted to sell their democracy to Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and other countries. It is a good thing that the product had been rejected by the customers.

- AR 


On Thursday, 15 December 2016, 23:49, "Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 

I am sorry, I sent the mail without reference before.

This mail was especially for forever-confused Farida Majid, and others like her, who have been trying to delegitimize the US election.

 

Thanks to the recount efforts by the Dem, we can now see how they have committed voters' frauds in the last election.

 

In many polling centers at Detroit and other counties, government polling agents were piling up votes for Hillary by scanning the same vote over and over again. They repeated such scanning so many times that the total votes cast surpassed the number of total voters in the registry. Hillary got 95% of those inflated votes. Job well done, Dems! 

 

Jiten Roy



From: "Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 6:16 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona]

 
 
 
Judge Napolitano: Election Fraud in Detroit Looks 'Organized, and Government Involved'
By Debra Heine December 14, 2016
Judge Napolitano: Election Fraud in Detroit Looks 'Organized, and Government Involved'
Recount workers Sheryl Abrams, left, and Diane Russell begin the recount of Wayne County ballots during the statewide presidential election recount at Cobo Hall in Detroit Tuesday morning, Dec. 6, 2016. The presidential recount in Michigan expanded Tuesday to its largest county, which includes Detroit, and five other counties. (Tanya Moutzalias/The Grand Rapids Press via AP)
Jill Stein's recount efforts in Michigan have uncovered what looks like systemic election fraud in Detroit, where roughly 95% of the votes cast were cast for Hillary Clinton. Sixty percent of precincts in Wayne County had to be disqualified from the statewide recount because of "irregularities." According to Fox News judicial analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano, those irregularities look "organized" and "government involved."
County records prepared at the request of The Detroit News after ballot irregularities were discovered revealed that 37 percent of Detroit precincts registered more votes than voters during the election.
Detailed reports from the office of Wayne County Clerk Cathy Garrett show optical scanners at 248 of the city's 662 precincts, or 37 percent, tabulated more ballots than the number of voters tallied by workers in the poll books. Voting irregularities in Detroit have spurred plans for an audit by Michigan Secretary of State Ruth Johnson's office, Elections Director Chris Thomas said Monday.
The Detroit precincts are among those that couldn't be counted during a statewide presidential recount that began last week and ended Friday following a decision by the Michigan Supreme Court.
Democrat Hillary Clinton overwhelmingly prevailed in Detroit and Wayne County. But Republican President-elect Donald Trump won Michigan by 10,704 votes or 47.5 percent to 47.3 percent.
Overall, state records show 10.6 percent of the precincts in the 22 counties that began the retabulation process couldn't be recounted because of state law that bars recounts for unbalanced precincts or ones with broken seals.
The problems were the worst in Detroit, where discrepancies meant officials couldn't recount votes in 392 precincts, or nearly 60 percent. And two-thirds of those precincts had too many votes.
"There's always going to be small problems to some degree, but we didn't expect the degree of problem we saw in Detroit. This isn't normal," said Krista Haroutunian, chairwoman of the Wayne County Board of Canvassers.
State officials are planning to examine about 20 Detroit precincts where ballot boxes opened during the recount had fewer ballots than poll workers had recorded on Election Day.
"We're assuming there were (human) errors, and we will have discussions with Detroit election officials and staff in addition to reviewing the ballots," Thomas said.
The Detroit News last week was first to report that more than half of Detroit would be ineligible for the recount because of the irregularities. The results were based on county reports obtained by The News.
The new report, compiled by Wayne County elections officials, sheds light on the extent of the problems and shows a systematic tendency toward counting more votes than the previous Wayne County report, which didn't specify if precincts had over-counted or under-counted ballots.
Republican state senators last week called for an investigation in Wayne County, including one precinct where a Detroit ballot box contained only 50 of the 306 ballots listed in a poll book, according to an observer for Trump.
City officials have told state officials that ballots in that precinct were never taken out of a locked bin below the voting machine tabulator on Election Day, said Secretary of State spokesman Fred Woodhams.
"That's what we've been told, and we'll be wanting to verify it," Woodhams said. "At any rate, this should not have happened."
Sponsored
On Fox Business' Varney and Company Wednesday, Napolitano said that the the over-counting of Democrat votes is an example of the "government defrauding itself."
Host Stuart Varney described the type of"human error" that caused the discrepancies. "The poll worker takes the ballot, and puts it into a scanning machine, and says, 'oh good gosh, it jammed.'" The poll worker then proceeds to rescan the ballot "again, and again, and again."












__._,_.___

Posted by: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190





__,_._,___