Mr. Q. Rahman
Your pint size inquisitiveness is buried deep in religious faith. If you had read religious literature,e.g., Quran and Hadith, even moderately, your faith would have developed holes. Say about the verse on Abu Lahab, could such hatred be divine? If it were so, how the person and the prophet could be related by marital alliance?
The problem with you is that graduate course of comparative religion are not meat for a freshman, and you do not have the aptitude of even a freshman. Please read the holy Quran, along with Bukhari, Tirmizi, Muslim and other hadith. Also read Tabari, and occasionally read the ex-Muslim critiques. Zaki Ameeni, Abul Kashem etc. have encyclopedic knowledge on Islam. The attachment I gave earlier entitled "Prophet of Doom" may also be helpful. Develop enough intelligence to differentiate between a good and a bad post.
A final advice, stop using the Jewish 'Shalom' at the end. Your Muslim brothers could call you an apostate.
The first biography of the prophet was written over a hundred years after his death by Ibn Ishaque. I hope you know his name. There is, however, no reason to believe the authenticity of the biography or that of the person.
>>>>>>>>> Help me understand what you are saying. Do you agree with "One scholar" that, prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did not exist?
I have spent more time than many studying religious literature, and am confident that I have more information than these recent net browsers. The believers in the holiness of their religion may read the attachment.
>>>>>>>>>> I am glad to hear that you know a lot about religion. I hope your future posts will reflect your deep knowledge of this subject.
I need your help to understand something. Your attachment was the "Qur'an" and we were discussing prophet Muhammad (PBUH). So prophet's life should be part of the hadith texts.
Do let me know HOW do I learn about prophet's life from text of the Qur'an?
Appreciate your kind attention.
Shalom!!
-----Original Message-----Sent: Sun, Nov 20, 2011 9:12 am
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society? [1 Attachment]
[Attachment(s) from Kamal Das included below]The first biography of the prophet was written over a hundred years after his death by Ibn Ishaque. I hope you know his name. There is, however, no reason to believe the authenticity of the biography or that of the person. I for one don't need fifteen minutes of fame, neither do the persons I refer to as scholars. I have spent more time than many studying religious literature, and am confident that I have more information than these recent net browsers. The believers in the holiness of their religion may read the attachment.
On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 3:59 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
Member M. Rahman,
Member Das was talking about my comments not yours. However I did not call him dumb but I called the question "Dumb". If Jesus, Moses or Muhammad (PBUT) ever existed are asked by people who want to stir up the pot a little. Going after 15 minutes of fame. People who quote these "Media attention hungry" people often do not know enough of these topics but want to "Shake up" discussions or situations.
As I said, I welcome honest questions and critics on any topic (Including religion). However if someone ask if Muhammad bin Abdullah (PBUH) ever existed, it is only FAIR to call that QUESTION dumb. I have not called any member by any names. I think this part was misunderstood. Neither I am interested to relegate our discussions/debate to that level.
Throwing down absurd comments about the holy prophet's janaja or circumcision ( Who the heck going to verify that???) is a cheap way to get someone agitated. BUT in response all I asked to learn more about "Sources" of such information.
It is interesting to note that, the whole Muslim world never worried about such issues but some of our atheist friends are!!
Which says a lot about the level of desperation.
I still welcome all comments or questions about topics I discuss. ( Recently posted one about Jesus son of Mary and Christianity).
I am not here to preach to people but ONLY to replace wrong/false information with correct information.
====================================================
Being dumb yourself, you see others as dumb.
Member Das,
Hope you understand the I did NOT call you dumb. Rather my comment was directed at the quality of the comment. I do stand by that.
I do not consider myself as scholar but even with my limited knowledge I can EASILY prove to anyone that, prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did exist. The German scholar is also welcome.
Despite our differences of opinions, I enjoy your passion in our discussion.
Shalom!!
-----Original Message-----
From: MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com>
To: Mukto-mona Mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 5:49 am
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
Mr Kamal Das,
I did not call you dumb. But if you are going to read and quote sources who are critics of Islam as you seem to be, then what can be done? You will continue to bring out absurd claims like the "Prophet was not circumcised" in this Forum with the sole intention of maligning this great man !! Detractors and faultfinders of Islam and its Messenger with continue to come up with atrocious claims in the garb of intellect.
Mustafizur Rahman
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: kamalctgu@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 07:45:47 &# 43;0600
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
Mr. Rahman
Being dumb yourself, you see others as dumb. I did not present the question you deem dumb, it is the theory of Professor Sven Kalisch. He teaches Islamic history and culture at a German University. You can debate with him if you like. Apparently, you don't know that after the prophet was missing for days the news spread of his death. Even Hajrat Umar did not believe it and came with an unscathed sword to the abode of Ayesha where he met Abu Bakr who cooled him down. Then Abu Bakr and Umar belonged to one group who coerced others into submission to the caliphate of Abu Bakr. The last sermon had nothing to do with his death.
By the way do you know that the prophet was not even circumcised. Thus he broke the covenant of Abraham with God.
On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 1:30 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
Member Das,
No mainstream Muslim scholar agrees with YOUR narratives on Islam or our holy prophet (PBUH). Earlier you presented a dumb question by asking IF the last messenger of God (PBUH) ever existed? I have read many DIFFERENT commentaries and spoken to many scholars and NEVER heard such absurd claims.
Either way, the prophet (PBUH) did die a natural death and last time I checked English speaking world does not label that as "Dubious"!! NO way!!
Before the death of the noble prophet (PBUH) he gave his famous sermon during the last hajj, which was so complete and powerful that, it indicated the end of his work on earth. He started by saying...
"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY....................................
[ Source: Last hajj sermon]
http://soundvision.com/info/hajj/lastsermon.asp
I cannot stop writing on religious issues as long people like yourself come up with ridiculous and false information about Islam. Someone needs to supply correct information about it. That is all I am doing. Earlier, I have supplied books about the noble prophet by world famous scholars from all corners of the globe and NONE of them talks about the "FICTIONAL" topic YOU brought up here ( About janaja). If this was one time mistake, I would have accept it as such. However you keep coming up with WRONG information about Islam!!
Logically it cannot be an accident. It is deliberate and it says a lot about you!!
Mainstream narrative of Islam and the last prophet (PBUH) is well known. The last prophet (PBUH) was probably the most documented human being on the face of the earth. His speeches, practices, ideals, values were preserved by his followers as per his direction.
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/sunnah/
I am unable to see what was so dubious about his death? People were shocked, sad and confused. When a beloved leader dies, it is the natural response from people.
I have given names of books and scholars in an earlier post. If Islam and prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is always in your mind, I invite you to read about him. It would be helpful if you know about the topic you want to critic.
Shalom!!
-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 17, 2011 5:27 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
If you need the sources on the death of the prophet, you should stop writing on religious issues. Ask any maulana and find out or read the Cambridge History of Islam, or 'Islam and the West' by Norman Daniel.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:44 AM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
Even the prophet died under dubious conditions and did not get janaja.
>>>>> SOURCES PLEASE???
-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:31 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
If Mr. Mustafizur Rahman does not see that the dominant contemporary religions are based on the geocentric model of the universe, and sees the ancient and medieval periods were not bad periods, no debate is possible. Nobody can single a period that was good. As he is a believer in Islam, may I point out that out of the four 'rightly guided' Caliphs, the first one was poisoned to death while the rest were killed. While Omar was bleeding to death, he requested the majlis members not to make his son the Caliph under any condition. Usman was killed by a group of assassins in the mosque while reading the 'holy' Koran, and Ali was speared to death. The killers of Usman asked Ali to take over the Caliphate, his dead body was left without a janaja for days. Even the prophet died under dubious conditions and did not get janaja. The Shias insist that he was killed by two of his wives, daughters of th e first two Caliphs.
I am really impressed by the depth of ignorance of these mullahs who are using this forum to spread the 'values' of Islam.
2011/11/14 MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com>
Equal opportunity critic to all religions? Why? Why criticize all religions? Medieval period was not a bad period. In English literature this word is at times used in a negative sense. Human progress went through - as the West has categorized it - stages like iron period, bronze period, medieval period etc. Can you single out one period that was bad? If you disbelieve in the very existence of God, that is a different matter. But what will you do with the billions of people who do believe in the existence of a Creator and seek His assistance?
Mustafizur Rahman
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: qrahman@netscape.net
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:36:52 -0500
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
You have been sharing orientalist myths about Islam. Modern day scholars do not buy these any more. Such orientalists also spread lies against Hindus as well. Which prompted Swami Vivekananda to visit USA over hundred years ago. He went there to answer to those myths and explain his faith to the west.
Over and over I have asked you to share SOURCES of your info but only got unclear answers. Please clarify your positions or take this opportunity to learn something new.
Peace.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Nov 13, 2011 8:39 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
I do not spread venom against Islam. I am an 'equal opportunity' critic to all religions, and every medieval tendency to invoke God as an answer to all problems. I refer to historical facts when some 'religious' men use this forum to spread Islam.
2011/11/12 MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com>
Kamal Das, Jiten Roy etc,
Will you STOP taking advantage of this Forum and refrain from spreading your venom against Islam?
Mustafizur Rahman
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: kamalctgu@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:07:31 +0600
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
The core message was not convincing enough even to Abu Talib, the mentor and the protector of the prophet. The message is to obtain 72 houries and 28 gillmans in the afterlife with an everlasting erection. Even Ibn Sina wondered, how the prophet, being the intelligent man that he was, spread such rubbish. Then he came up with his own intelligent solution! Consider the intelligence of the average people of medieval times, and you have the answer.
About the animal sacrifice, it is the practice in many cultures. The poor animal dies to serve the religion. In the primitive times, the first child was to be sacrificed as an expiation to the cardinal sin from which every child is born. Abraham himself was a butcher in the temple of Melech. As he was not sure of his fatherhood of his children, given his age and inability to sire any during his life, he exiled Ismael and Hagar to Mecca, and took Isaac to sacrifice as burnt offering to Moloch. But he changed his mind later and told the Canaanites that God intervened in the last moment. Abraham was used to telling lies. Earlier he passed Sarah as his sister to gain material advantages.
Animal sacrifice has been a common practice across the world. There was no cheaper way to feed people in feasts. Cow sacrifice by Indian Muslims are intended only to anoy the local Hindus. Such practice is not the Arabian norm.
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 4:48 PM, sentu tikadar <sentu92003@yahoo.com> wrote:
What is the core message of Islam?Tolerance to other Faiths?Deny others' Faiths and indirectly condemn others' Faiths five times a day? And brain washing five times per day (like advertisement) later the uncivilised indisciplined Beduin forget Mohammad ? So much endeavour to be remembered by ppeople just like a politician sex maniac.What is the teaching? Killing people who would not accept his Faith and used the women of the defeated people. Told something good in Mecca and the same thing told in a reversed way in Medina. He had written( actually by other) a Book copied from other Book (Bible) because he knew he could not write a completely new Book out of nothing.So he had taken the easiest and ready- made way. Just Copy and relate him with taht Book's men. So intelligent he was.Just see the Qurbani in Idd? How people can cut throat the cow which he garlanded with flowers? Giving flowers garland means showing respect to it? After showing respect and / or love it is cut. Desert culture has ruined us. It had divided us. It had killed us. It had made us animals from human. That's why Saudi never allows other to follow their religions in open? In Kashmir, In Pakistan, in Bangladesh , even in India (Deganga of West Bengal) temples' deities demolition is a noble job.They don't feel any pity to that cow? In Pakistan some children stay night with the cow or goat putting flower garlands around its neck. In the morning that animal is cut throat? Height of cruelty !!! This is the culture mid east had given to us. We borrowed the hard religion from desert while we were not the desert people.Is this the teaching of real Allah? Giving pain to a living being Allah feels happy? Don't believe that Allah who is biased. Allah is not a democratic fellow? So the believers of that Allah can not be democratic. That's why most of the Allah believers democratic country are failed country. Who will accept Allah he must be ruled with iron hand otherwise he will loose faiths. So many trics Mahammad had understood and apllied. A real dictator of 1400 years ago.
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
Date: Thursday, November 10, 2011, 5:47 AM
Killing of the Ahmediyas by the followers of Mowdoodi in Pakistan, killing and raping of freedom loving Bengalis in 1971, bombing of mosques to kill innocent Shiites in Pakistan and Iraq and somewhere else----are all these the acts by the secularists?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are right these were acts of half educated idiots who do not understand the core message of Islam.
However atheist people have done more murdering of innocents than any religious people. Stalin, Mao (Of china) etc done their part in killing anyone who had a different point of view.
-----Original Message-----
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 10, 2011 6:37 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
Killing of the Ahmediyas by the followers of Mowdoodi in Pakistan, killing and raping of freedom loving Bengalis in 1971, bombing of mosques to kill innocent Shiites in Pakistan and Iraq and somewhere else----are all these the acts by the secularists?
From: S A Hannan <sahannan@sonarbangladesh.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2011 2:16 AM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
Respected all,Atheists and secularists (who believe in naturalism and rationalism only and who deny role of religion in public life) are more menace to humanity, morality, civilization as history shows. Most of the wars including first and second great wars were waged by them.Most of the people of religions are good people. Many of them are misguided by secular political leaders or some ignorant and aggressive religious bigots.Religious people of all religions should fight these exploiters and stand for humanity, morality and social welfare.Shah Abdul HannanFrom: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jiten Roy
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:42 AM
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?@Nihar Singh:The true religious people - who are they? Whether they bother anybody or not - is not the issue. The issue is how much is their contribution towards the advancement of the modern society? Are people, who take part in the communal riots or blowup innocent people in the name of religion, any less religious? You may think so - but they don't.@Kamal Das:The New Testaments does not contain many of the violent verses of the Old Testament means these are not absolute truth. This is the point I am trying to make.Thanks.From: nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
To: "Mukto-mona" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, November 7, 2011, 7:12 PMAre some religious people menaces in the society?I have been asking this question lately to myself. I tried to find the roles and contributions (I mean, real contributions) of religious people in the society that brought us here from the beginning of time. What I envisioned is that - religion played a very insignificant role towards our social, moral, and scientific developments in this world. Most of these developments are made by religiously indifferent people. The religious people mostly deal with and talk about things that are out of this world. As a result, many of these religious people are misfits and menaces in the society.Many argue that religion builds our moral character, and we learn good and bad from religion, etc. etc. I, on the other hand, think – good and bad we learn from our ancestors, and from our own experiences; religion has nothing to do with it. You might ask where our ancestors learned them from, in the first place. They learned good and bad from their ancestors' experiences, so on, and so forth. Most Chinese do not have any religion. When I asked a Chinese man - how most people there learn about good and bad without religion, he told me - they learn them from their elders' wisdoms. That's right; our ancestors transferred their knowledge and wisdom to us. Therefore, I truly believe – this world would have been a much better place without religion. Religions have divided us into many sectarian hateful clans, which are constantly fighting with one another.Many of us believe that religious doctrines and dogmas are heavenly absolute entities. They forget that - many of those doctrines, dogmas, and interpretations have already been modified from the original preaching during emancipation. For example, Old Testament has been replaced by the New Testament, many Quranic interpretations have been changed, and many Vedic/Puranic practices and interpretations have been changed, etc., etc. That means - religious teachings and practices are subject to change with the time, which means they are not so heavenly endowments as we believe them to be. This is a critical point to remember. Those who think otherwise are the menaces in the society.Jiten Roy
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