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Sunday, September 23, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Fw: [ModerateMuslims] Was Jesus a Muslim? // response to Mubashir



This guy, a fool, is quoting from the Old Testament, which is the Jewish sacred book and not followed by the Christians.  Obviously, his views are not worth discussing.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:58 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
 

And Jesus did not forbid idol worshiping for his followers. His followers worship idols of baby Jesus, vargin Mary, cross, and thousands of saints.

>>>>>>>>>> If you read the scriptures carefully, you will see that, all Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) spoke about one God and spoke against idol worshiping. The idol worshiping part was added by the Romans many years AFTER Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) left this world.

Jesus did not forbid alcohol and pork meat consumption to his followers. Then, what kind of Muslim was he? Obvious, not the kind we know.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Again Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) did not introduce any new religion and like the Jews he forbade his followers from consuming pork. It is still in the Bible and the read question to ask is WHY do "Modern Christians" consume pork while Jesus was NEVER known for consuming pork.

If you take the time to read what Jesus said (As per Bible), you will discover he said......



Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

[ Source: The Holy Bible Matthew 5:17 - 18 ]

Here Jesus is referring to the Old testament of the Bible. The part that was revealed to prophet Moses before Jesus (PBUT).  He ALSO said, his mission was ONLY to educate and guide the tribe of Israel NOT Rome, China, Korea or India. The verse below is STILL in the Bible but ignored by ignorant Christians.


I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (The Bible, Matthew, 15:24)

Now let us take a look at what the laws of OT says about consuming pork.....

Lev 11:7

And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.


[ Source: The Holy Bible Lev 11:7 ]






And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.


[ Source: The Holy Bible Deuteronomy 14:8 ]


If any of you ask a learned man/woman of Christianity, he/she will say that, Jesus was a practicing Jew. Which means he kept sabbath (Which means pray on Saturday and no work for Saturday). However Christians don't follow Jesus but they follow a mixture of Roman rituals (Sunday was the holiday in per-Christian Rome). Therefore, modern Christianity does not conform to what the scripture says about the religion.

In this context, it has some similarities with Hinduism. As I was told there is no reason for Hindus for not consuming beef (As per scripture) but not eating beef has been more to do with "Tradition" than religion.

So I would say, member Roy asked some valid questions here. I tried to answer them in a short post ( I can discuss it in much greater detail with references but I did not want to overload the forum with information). If any member want to know more about my observations, feel free to ask any question on it.

There are very sound logical reason behind calling Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) a Muslim. But I'll rest that discussion for another post for now.

Shalom!
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 23, 2012 7:22 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Fw: [ModerateMuslims] Was Jesus a Muslim? // response to Mubashir

 
Was Jesus a Muslim?
Jesus did say - there is only one God. Even Hinduism say that also. Idol worshiping is not about worshiping God. It has different purpose. And Jesus did not forbid idol worshiping for his followers. His followers worship idols of baby Jesus, vargin Mary, cross, and thousands of saints. Jesus did not forbid alcohol and pork meat consumption to his followers. Then, what kind of Muslim was he? Obvious, not the kind we know.
Frankly, I do not know enough to say more than this about the question.
Jiten Roy 

--- On Sat, 9/22/12, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@gmail.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Re: Fw: [ModerateMuslims] Was Jesus a Muslim? // response to Mubashir
To: "Mohiuddin Anwar" <mohiuddin@netzero.net>
Cc: farida_majid@hotmail.com, syed.aslam3@gmail.com, shahadathusaini@hotmail.com, kamalctgu@gmail.com, srbanunz@gmail.com, mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com, americanbangladeshi@googlegroups.com, baainews@yahoogroups.com, sonarbangladesh@yahoogroups.com, jnrsr53@yahoo.com, subimal@yahoo.com
Date: Saturday, September 22, 2012, 8:22 PM

 
""Islam isn't a religion – it is a way of life." I have heard both Muslims and non-Muslims express this sentiment."

So, who are these non-Muslims, who are expressing the same sentiment? Please, do not shove such idiotic statement on other people' throats, who do not even subscribe Islam's teachings or tenets. Is it a better way of life? So, how come people are fleeing to the West? The proof is in the pudding!
-SD

On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 3:58 PM, Mohiuddin Anwar <mohiuddin@netzero.net> wrote:


---------- Forwarded Message ----------
From: Student of the Quran <irtaza1@yahoo.com>
To: moderatemuslims@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ModerateMuslims] Was Jesus a Muslim? // response to Mubashir
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2012 08:21:55 -0700 (PDT)

 
 
SAME CONCEPT OF GOD:
 
Christian Scripture: "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." [Isaiah 46:9]
Muslim Scripture: "No visions can encompass Him, but He encompasses all visions. He is the Compassionate, the Cognizant."[Quran 6:103]
Muslim Scripture: "None equals Him." [Quran 112:4]
 
SAME CONCEPT OF WORSHIP GOD ALONE:
 
Christian Scripture: "Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord." [Mark 12:29][Deuteronomy 6:4]
Christian Scripture: "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." [Isaiah 43:11]
Christian Scripture: "I am Lord, and there is none else, there is no God besides me." [Isaiah 45:5]
Christian Scripture: "I am the Lord, and there is no other" [Isaiah 45:18]
Christian Scripture: "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. "[Isaiah 42:8]
Muslim Scripture: " Say, "My Contact Prayers (Salat), my worship practices, my life and my death, are all devoted absolutely to GOD alone, the Lord of the universe." [Quran 6:162]
 
SAME CONCEPT AGAINST IDOL WORSHIP:
 
Christian Scripture: "And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcass upon the carcass of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you." [Leviticus 26:30]
Christian Scripture: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God." [Exodus 20:3-5] [Deuteronomy 5:7-9]
 Muslim Scripture: "GOD does not forgive idol worship (if maintained until death), and He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who idolizes any idol beside GOD has strayed far astray." [Quran 4:116]
Muslim Scripture: "Pagans indeed are those who say that GOD is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah himself said, "O Children of Israel, you shall worship GOD; my Lord and your Lord." Anyone who sets up any idol beside GOD, GOD has forbidden Paradise for him, and his destiny is Hell. The wicked have no helpers."[Quran 5:72]
Muslim scripture:"We have sent a messenger to every community, saying, "You shall worship GOD, and avoid idolatry." Subsequently, some were guided by GOD, while others were committed to straying. Roam the earth and note the consequences for the rejectors."[Quran 16:36]
 
SAME CONCEPT OF DISBELIEVERS
  
Christian Scripture: "Seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." [Matthew 13:13]
 Muslim Scripture: "Can you make the deaf hear; can you make the blind see, or those who are far astray?" [Quran 43:40]
 
 
[33:62] God's Sunnah is unchangeable
[39:23] The Quran is the best Hadith
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/
 
From: Mubashir Inayet <minayet@yahoo.com>
To: Student of the Quran <irtaza1@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Was Jesus a Muslim? // comment

Salam Br Irtaza
 
You may want to quote a few verses from the New Testament to prove your case.
 
Mubashir

From: Student of the Quran <irtaza1@yahoo.com>
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 7:12:05 AM
Subject: Was Jesus a Muslim? // comment



 
Salamun Alaykum.
 
Jesus submitted to God.  Jesus was in fact a Submitter (in Arabic, Muslim).  Please examine the following verses:
 
[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."
[3:52] When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters."
[3:84] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and in what was given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."
[42:13] He decreed for you the same religion decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: "You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it." The idol worshipers will greatly resent what you invite them to do. GOD redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself only those who totally submit. 
 
The majority of us have false belief that Mohammad founded the religion of Submission (in Arabic, Islam) and his followers are the only Submitters (in Arabic, Muslims). But, see the following Quranic truth:
 
[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
[5:69] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. 
 
Thank you and may God guide me. 
 
Muhammed Irtaza
 
 
[33:62] God's Sunnah is unchangeable
[39:23] The Quran is the best Hadith
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/
 
From: Dr. M. A. QAZI <drmaqazi@yahoo.com>
To: a
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: Was Jesus a Muslim?

ROBERT SHEDINGERWas Jesus a Muslim?: Questioning Categories in the Study of Religion

FORTRESS PRESS, 2009
by KRISTIAN PETERSEN on  MAY 7, 2012
Robert Shedinger
View on Amazon
"Islam isn't a religion – it is a way of life." I have heard both Muslims and non-Muslims express this sentiment. For believers this statement is meant to demonstrate how comprehensive God's message is, covering not only the so-called spiritual aspects of life but also the seemingly secular components too. For polemicist denying Islam the status of being a religion serves to contribute to their agenda of challenging Muslim rights in western society. How should Islam be understood? And for that matter, what exactly is religion and how should we define it? Should we consider Islam a religion? Robert F. Shedinger, Professor of Religion at Luther College, addresses these questions in Was Jesus a Muslim?: Questioning Categories in the Study of Religion (Fortress Press, 2009). In this fascinating study Shedinger brings a broad spectrum of literature into dialogue to probe what we mean by religion, how Islam fits into that category, and how dialogue can exist between Muslims and non-Muslims based on these definitions. He outlines the problems with Comparative Religions, Interreligious Dialogue, and several other analytical categories more generally. Overall, he challenges us to rethinking how we conceive of the terms we use and their practical implications within real world circumstances. In our interview we explore the question if Islam is not a religion then what is it? Then with our new working meaning we ask was Jesus a Muslim? Take a listen and find out.








 
 


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"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS




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Re: [mukto-mona] Getting offended on God’s behalf



As little as a few hundred years ago, questioning the Christian scripture in any form could lead to getting burned at stake for heresy.  Muslims were much more liberal compared to the Christians. Presently, very few Muslims(or Jews) appreciate open debate on religion while others don't really care.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 6:10 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

There have been several instances where Jesus has been denigrated and offended in Hollywood movies and arts, which have been shown around the world. Many of those arts are displayed in the Museums. In a recent movie, they have shown the following plot. There was a picture of Jesus in the bathroom right above the toilet. When someone was urinating, a few drop of urine splashed onto the picture of Jesus. When a lady saw a drop of water right under the eye of Jesus, she thought Jesus was crying. After seeing this, she started to cry, and called others to see this heavenly miracle. This film was made by a Jew.

Mel Gibson has denigrated Jesus in his movie and Christians protested vehemently. There has been an art exhibit of holy cross immerged in the urine, and it is being shown around the world. Research is going on to prove that Jesus was married. All these acts are extremely offensive to Christians, but how many people died and how many buses and flags have been burned? None so far and none will be in the future.

This recent trailer about the Prophet has been put into YouTube in the middle of July, and Muslim extremists waited until 9/11 anniversary to use that video for stirring up the mob.

Jiten Roy

--- On Sun, 9/23/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Getting offended on God's behalf
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sunday, September 23, 2012, 9:32 AM


 
It is really a good piece. The author is the daughter of a woman who has performed Hajj 12 times. Yet she will not get angry that she would go and kill 4 people. Shazia is right: it is always a minority group that gets angry. The majority even does not even know what is going on. This is the very minority that acts as the instigator and fishes in the troubled waters to materialize their political agenda. The other day I made exactly this comment in connection with Taslima to support Prof. Das's observation that initially Lajja did not have any repercussion. It was blown out of proportion by the propaganda and acts of a minority.  Sangh Parivar made it worse. 
As we can see, the short video is simply strengthening the hands of the fanatic and militant Islamists. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 22, 2012, at 5:34 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:

 
Shazia Mirza is a great South Asian/English comedian! This will be a great material for her next stand-up. She is hilarious on stage!
-SD 


A video clip from Shazia's show in Stockholm. Introduction is in Swedish but rest of it in English.



Getting offended on God's behalf
Shazia Mirza | 8 hours ago
20
The alarm went off on Monday morning, the radio came on and all I heard was, "It's been described as the most serious insult to Islam ever! People have been killed, and protests are mounting."
I thought 'What's happened? Has Satanic Verses been turned into a cartoon?' I switched the TV on and heard people talking about a film.
I had to rush and get on the tube, as I walked into the carriage everyone was reading a newspaper with this same story on the front, I heard one man say to his friend, "They're offended again", his friend replied, "What's new?"
I watched the film, and it's the most serious insult to film making ever. It is a badly made, amateur pantomime of a film. Clearly a joke in itself.  But what is even more outrageous – is the reaction to it.
My mum is religious. Very religious, fanatical about her religion. She's done Hajj 12 times, prays all day and fasts even when it's not Ramazan. If she saw the film she wouldn't like it, but would she go and shoot four people because of it? No way. Because she is a rational, open-minded human being, and she's so religious she doesn't watch films, at least ones which don't include Omar Sharif.
God, whichever God you believe in, is all knowing, all forgiving, and all loving. God has seen it all, because he made it all. He made the blasphemers. God can't be attacked. So if you're offended on his behalf, you don't actually have enough faith in him.
It is fashionable to be offended, and predictable for certain people to be offended at anything from cartoons to films, jokes, books … what next? Food, hair colour?
Every idea, every belief has to be challenged because that's how the rational mind works. There has to be questioning and debate, and if your religion is strong enough, it will withstand that.
Blasphemy is important. If blasphemy laws ruled the world we'd still be living in caves, and we'd never had made any progress – some people still haven't. Blasphemy laws are the armour of the insecure. If you are unable to laugh at yourself as a religion or a culture, that culture is suffering from low self-esteem, and devolution. Blasphemy doesn't just apply to religion, but economically and socially as well.
Now, because of the way certain Muslims react to things that offend them, artists, writers, comedians, film makers all over the world are slowly being silenced because they are scared to say what they think; in case they end up dead. The East is taking away the West's democracy. I don't like the film, it is offensive and insulting, although the comments underneath it on YouTube are far more offensive, but if you truly believe in democracy you have to defend the right for it to be made.
It is always a minority that are offended, and they often react with irrational violence, some of them don't even know what they're reacting to; violence is all they know. It gives us all a bad name. And if they don't stop, I'll have to continue to get randomly searched at airports, being felt up by some strange woman, and not be able to take more than 100ml of moisturizer through customs.
I live in England. It is a democracy, not just because of the way we vote, but because of the way we think. A good working democracy treats minorities well, and has a view of religion that is accepting. Britain is a melting pot of many religions and cultures, which is what makes it so great.
The Muslim world needs to be open minded about religion; it is ridiculous, insulting in itself and anti-Islamic to call someone an infidel just because they don't agree with what you believe.
Murdering someone, anyone, is never justified but even more outrageous when over a flimsy book or a badly made film.
There is a war between the East and the West, the moderate and the extreme, the religious and the non-religious, the repressed and the free, the open minded and the closed minded. Ultimately the open minded will win. Those are the people, who are accepting and tolerant to other people's beliefs and opinions which is the fundamental basis of all religion and those are the right thinking, rational people you'd want to live next door to.
Don't kill me for writing this column; it's just an idea.
 
The author is an award winning stand-up comedian and writer. She has performed all over the world. A columnist for The Guardian UK, she was named Columnist of the Year at the prestigious PPA Awards. Find out more from her website.


 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS




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Re: [mukto-mona] Getting offended on God’s behalf



Mr. Chakrabarty, not every soul hiding under a Muslim name is a Muslim.  Be aware of that.  And not everyone has the same degree of 'secularism' in him/her.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

I see huge protests by moderate Muslims. They don't go and clash with the fanatic mob but they speak and write against them. Think about yourself, Farida apa, Mr. Q. Rahman, and many others even in this forum. I think Muslims like you are the majority. The article you have forwarded has been written by a Muslim. 
Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 23, 2012, at 6:47 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

It is rather a duty of majority (moderates) to stand up against the lunatics and show their place. That is not happening in Islamic countries. I have not seen any counter demonstration to denounce this BS violence on behalf of prophet. Only in Bengazi, Libya, people have evicted some thugs from their neighborhood. That is all! And, now, some idiots/leaders would like to have universal blasphemy law for their sacred people? I do not know who will be included in that list? It sounds pretty moronic to me.
-SD

 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Getting offended on God's behalf

 
It is really a good piece. The author is the daughter of a woman who has performed Hajj 12 times. Yet she will not get angry that she would go and kill 4 people. Shazia is right: it is always a minority group that gets angry. The majority even does not even know what is going on. This is the very minority that acts as the instigator and fishes in the troubled waters to materialize their political agenda. The other day I made exactly this comment in connection with Taslima to support Prof. Das's observation that initially Lajja did not have any repercussion. It was blown out of proportion by the propaganda and acts of a minority.  Sangh Parivar made it worse. 
As we can see, the short video is simply strengthening the hands of the fanatic and militant Islamists. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 22, 2012, at 5:34 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:

 
Shazia Mirza is a great South Asian/English comedian! This will be a great material for her next stand-up. She is hilarious on stage!
-SD 


A video clip from Shazia's show in Stockholm. Introduction is in Swedish but rest of it in English.



Getting offended on God's behalf
Shazia Mirza | 8 hours ago
20
The alarm went off on Monday morning, the radio came on and all I heard was, "It's been described as the most serious insult to Islam ever! People have been killed, and protests are mounting."
I thought 'What's happened? Has Satanic Verses been turned into a cartoon?' I switched the TV on and heard people talking about a film.
I had to rush and get on the tube, as I walked into the carriage everyone was reading a newspaper with this same story on the front, I heard one man say to his friend, "They're offended again", his friend replied, "What's new?"
I watched the film, and it's the most serious insult to film making ever. It is a badly made, amateur pantomime of a film. Clearly a joke in itself.  But what is even more outrageous – is the reaction to it.
My mum is religious. Very religious, fanatical about her religion. She's done Hajj 12 times, prays all day and fasts even when it's not Ramazan. If she saw the film she wouldn't like it, but would she go and shoot four people because of it? No way. Because she is a rational, open-minded human being, and she's so religious she doesn't watch films, at least ones which don't include Omar Sharif.
God, whichever God you believe in, is all knowing, all forgiving, and all loving. God has seen it all, because he made it all. He made the blasphemers. God can't be attacked. So if you're offended on his behalf, you don't actually have enough faith in him.
It is fashionable to be offended, and predictable for certain people to be offended at anything from cartoons to films, jokes, books … what next? Food, hair colour?
Every idea, every belief has to be challenged because that's how the rational mind works. There has to be questioning and debate, and if your religion is strong enough, it will withstand that.
Blasphemy is important. If blasphemy laws ruled the world we'd still be living in caves, and we'd never had made any progress – some people still haven't. Blasphemy laws are the armour of the insecure. If you are unable to laugh at yourself as a religion or a culture, that culture is suffering from low self-esteem, and devolution. Blasphemy doesn't just apply to religion, but economically and socially as well.
Now, because of the way certain Muslims react to things that offend them, artists, writers, comedians, film makers all over the world are slowly being silenced because they are scared to say what they think; in case they end up dead. The East is taking away the West's democracy. I don't like the film, it is offensive and insulting, although the comments underneath it on YouTube are far more offensive, but if you truly believe in democracy you have to defend the right for it to be made.
It is always a minority that are offended, and they often react with irrational violence, some of them don't even know what they're reacting to; violence is all they know. It gives us all a bad name. And if they don't stop, I'll have to continue to get randomly searched at airports, being felt up by some strange woman, and not be able to take more than 100ml of moisturizer through customs.
I live in England. It is a democracy, not just because of the way we vote, but because of the way we think. A good working democracy treats minorities well, and has a view of religion that is accepting. Britain is a melting pot of many religions and cultures, which is what makes it so great.
The Muslim world needs to be open minded about religion; it is ridiculous, insulting in itself and anti-Islamic to call someone an infidel just because they don't agree with what you believe.
Murdering someone, anyone, is never justified but even more outrageous when over a flimsy book or a badly made film.
There is a war between the East and the West, the moderate and the extreme, the religious and the non-religious, the repressed and the free, the open minded and the closed minded. Ultimately the open minded will win. Those are the people, who are accepting and tolerant to other people's beliefs and opinions which is the fundamental basis of all religion and those are the right thinking, rational people you'd want to live next door to.
Don't kill me for writing this column; it's just an idea.
 
The author is an award winning stand-up comedian and writer. She has performed all over the world. A columnist for The Guardian UK, she was named Columnist of the Year at the prestigious PPA Awards. Find out more from her website.


 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS


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Re: [mukto-mona] ‘A Man among men...’ -- Swami Vivekananda



"All doors were open to him when he graduated from Calcutta University."

 - Not really, he tried to find an employment, and didn't find any.  Starvation and other deprivation was a common experience to him.  He visited Dakshineswar to have a free meal.  Ultimately, he found out, no business is as good as the one with religion.  He wasn't much of a saint.  His relation with Sister Nivedita had been questioned during his lifetime by the monks of his own congregation.  Besides, he used to brag about relishing non-traditional food forbidden among his coreligionists.  Though there is no scope of avatar, according to the Veda, he declared Ramakrishna as the best of them.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
Rishi Bankim, however, irrelevant here, was not much more than another overblown icon.


On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
 

           Thanks for the mention of this important book.  I have not read the book, but I have heard Narasingha Shil present a pre-publication paper at the Bengal Studies Conference (held that year at SUNY) on Vivekananda which convincingly exploded all the myths surrounding this con-man god-man.  Narasingha is a great iconoclast, intelligent and funny, and a terrific 'adda-baj'. We became friends, and at another BS Conference he presented another hit at another Bengali icon -- Rishi Bankim.  I later told him that, unlike Vivekananda, Bankim did not consciously or dishonestly create his own Rishi image. His Rishi-ization and even the hinduization of Bande Mataram were done by communal politics long after his death. Narasingha accepted my explanations, and later, when he read my own completed article criticizing Gauri Vishwanathan book with evidences cited from Bankim, he praised it profusely in an e-mail,  and stopped criticizing Bankim.

               Farida Majid
        

To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: kamalctgu@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 07:45:37 +0600
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] 'A Man among men...' -- Swami Vivekananda


 
One should read "Vivekananda Reassessed" - Narasingha P. Shil [Susquehenna University Press] to have a better understanding of him.


On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Sudhir-Architect <ar_sudhirkumar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

'A Man among men...' -- Swami Vivekananda

120 years on, Swami Vivekananda's fiery speech at the Parliament of Religions is still fresh in memory.This month marks the 120th anniversary of Swami Vivekananda's participation in the Parliament of Religions at Chicago.

It is appropriate to celebrate this great event through the month for a simple reason. While it is generally well-known that young Vivekananda had to sleep on a sidewalk in Chicago before being discovered and given a place to stay, what is less known is that his first lecture there on September 11, 1893, catapulted him to such a great stature that the organisers had to invite him to address the gathering every day during that fortnight!

A participant of that conference said, "When the audience was bored with the tedious eloquence of some other speakers and became restive, the president of the conference found that the best means to get them into order was to announce that Vivekananda would be the next speaker again!"

Among those present at that conference, Dr. Annie Besant later commented, "Off the platform, his figure was instinct with pride of country, pride of race – the representative of the oldest of living religions… India was not to be shamed before the hurrying arrogant West by this her envoy and her son. He brought her message, he spoke in her name, and the herald remembered the dignity of the royal land whence he came. Purposeful, virile, strong, he stood out, a man among men, able to hold his own. On the platform, another side came out. The dignity and the inborn sense of worth and power still were there, but all was subdued to the exquisite beauty of the spiritual message which he had brought, to the sublimity of that matchless truth of the East which is the heart and life of India…The huge multitude hung upon his words, not a syllable must be lost, not a cadence missed!"

Profound impact

An agnostic-turned-monk, Swami Vivekananda accomplished in a life span of 39 years what is probably not possible for anyone living even for a couple of centuries. His contribution was not obscurantist revival but rejuvenating renaissance of Hinduism and the Indian ethos. His deep sense of nationalism had a profound impact on the Freedom Struggle. His worldview and success in the Western world revived India's self esteem in the context of the depressed mood of enslavement. Suddenly, here was a new Indian spiritual leader known to the entire literate world.

His admirers included the likes of Leo Tolstoy and Max Mueller. Swamiji's personality combined the qualities of the Buddha, Mahavir, Adi Sankara, Ramanuja, and Chaitanya in a manner of syncretism. He was a great musician even as a teenager, attracting hundreds of people to his singing, a tradition which he continued all his life.

Even his religious ideas were radical. He once declared, "I do not know the 30 crore deities of our pantheon. But I know the millions of my suffering fellowmen who are my gods to be served." He epitomised this sentiment on the lines "Nara Seva is Narayana Seva" (Service to Man is Service to God). He did not believe in salvation by constantly running away from the world to meditate in caves; he believed that such enlightenment was only a means to serve his fellowmen. So he created an Order of Monks at the Ramakrishna Math and Mission, who are dedicated to the uplift of the downtrodden through education, health care and such other activities. He laid the foundation for communal and religious harmony, expanding on the principle his Guru had demonstrated.

The Tamil connection
How can anyone belonging to Tamil Nadu forget the unique relationship this part of the country had with a young Bengali saint who became the world-renowned Swami Vivekananda? It is well known that as a parivrajakacharya (wandering monk), Vivekananda reached Kanyakumari, swam across the sea, reached a rock and sat there in meditation for a few days. Although he had heard that a World Parliament of Religions was to take place in Chicago and a few people in Western India had suggested that he should participate, he could not make up his mind for long.

It was during his visit to Tamil Nadu that he decided to accept the challenge and proceed to America. Even then, he was debating with himself on whether he was genuinely interested in representing an ancient tradition of spirituality or was perhaps giving room to his ego to project himself. The enthusiasm of his disciples in Tamil Nadu led by Alasingar of Tiruvallikeni in Chennai helped him make up his mind.

The decision was clinched when a letter of blessings came from Sri Sarada Mata in Kolkata urging him to proceed to Chicago. The funds collected for his trip by his Tamil devotees became the nucleus which was strengthened by the generosity of the Maharaja of Ketri.

Half a century after the Chicago lecture, Rajaji said in simple words, "Swami Vivekananda saved Hinduism and saved India. But for him we would have lost our religion and would not have gained our freedom. We therefore owe everything to Swami Vivekananda. May his faith, his courage and his wisdom ever inspire us so that we may keep safe the treasure we have received from him!"

(Dr. S. Krishnaswamy is a documentary and television film maker and founder of the recently launched Tamil/English Heritage Channel, KRISHNA-TV.)

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article3917843.ece?homepage=true#.UFskBIOkrlI.email


Thanks & Regards,


Sudhir Srinivasan
B.Arch, MSc.CPM, Dip.ID, Dip.CAD, Dip.PM, Dip.LD
| Architect |










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Re: [mukto-mona] ‘A Man among men...’ -- Swami Vivekananda



Rishi Bankim, however, irrelevant here, was not much more than another overblown icon.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
 

           Thanks for the mention of this important book.  I have not read the book, but I have heard Narasingha Shil present a pre-publication paper at the Bengal Studies Conference (held that year at SUNY) on Vivekananda which convincingly exploded all the myths surrounding this con-man god-man.  Narasingha is a great iconoclast, intelligent and funny, and a terrific 'adda-baj'. We became friends, and at another BS Conference he presented another hit at another Bengali icon -- Rishi Bankim.  I later told him that, unlike Vivekananda, Bankim did not consciously or dishonestly create his own Rishi image. His Rishi-ization and even the hinduization of Bande Mataram were done by communal politics long after his death. Narasingha accepted my explanations, and later, when he read my own completed article criticizing Gauri Vishwanathan book with evidences cited from Bankim, he praised it profusely in an e-mail,  and stopped criticizing Bankim.

               Farida Majid
        

To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: kamalctgu@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 07:45:37 +0600
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] 'A Man among men...' -- Swami Vivekananda


 
One should read "Vivekananda Reassessed" - Narasingha P. Shil [Susquehenna University Press] to have a better understanding of him.


On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Sudhir-Architect <ar_sudhirkumar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

'A Man among men...' -- Swami Vivekananda

120 years on, Swami Vivekananda's fiery speech at the Parliament of Religions is still fresh in memory.This month marks the 120th anniversary of Swami Vivekananda's participation in the Parliament of Religions at Chicago.

It is appropriate to celebrate this great event through the month for a simple reason. While it is generally well-known that young Vivekananda had to sleep on a sidewalk in Chicago before being discovered and given a place to stay, what is less known is that his first lecture there on September 11, 1893, catapulted him to such a great stature that the organisers had to invite him to address the gathering every day during that fortnight!

A participant of that conference said, "When the audience was bored with the tedious eloquence of some other speakers and became restive, the president of the conference found that the best means to get them into order was to announce that Vivekananda would be the next speaker again!"

Among those present at that conference, Dr. Annie Besant later commented, "Off the platform, his figure was instinct with pride of country, pride of race – the representative of the oldest of living religions… India was not to be shamed before the hurrying arrogant West by this her envoy and her son. He brought her message, he spoke in her name, and the herald remembered the dignity of the royal land whence he came. Purposeful, virile, strong, he stood out, a man among men, able to hold his own. On the platform, another side came out. The dignity and the inborn sense of worth and power still were there, but all was subdued to the exquisite beauty of the spiritual message which he had brought, to the sublimity of that matchless truth of the East which is the heart and life of India…The huge multitude hung upon his words, not a syllable must be lost, not a cadence missed!"

Profound impact

An agnostic-turned-monk, Swami Vivekananda accomplished in a life span of 39 years what is probably not possible for anyone living even for a couple of centuries. His contribution was not obscurantist revival but rejuvenating renaissance of Hinduism and the Indian ethos. His deep sense of nationalism had a profound impact on the Freedom Struggle. His worldview and success in the Western world revived India's self esteem in the context of the depressed mood of enslavement. Suddenly, here was a new Indian spiritual leader known to the entire literate world.

His admirers included the likes of Leo Tolstoy and Max Mueller. Swamiji's personality combined the qualities of the Buddha, Mahavir, Adi Sankara, Ramanuja, and Chaitanya in a manner of syncretism. He was a great musician even as a teenager, attracting hundreds of people to his singing, a tradition which he continued all his life.

Even his religious ideas were radical. He once declared, "I do not know the 30 crore deities of our pantheon. But I know the millions of my suffering fellowmen who are my gods to be served." He epitomised this sentiment on the lines "Nara Seva is Narayana Seva" (Service to Man is Service to God). He did not believe in salvation by constantly running away from the world to meditate in caves; he believed that such enlightenment was only a means to serve his fellowmen. So he created an Order of Monks at the Ramakrishna Math and Mission, who are dedicated to the uplift of the downtrodden through education, health care and such other activities. He laid the foundation for communal and religious harmony, expanding on the principle his Guru had demonstrated.

The Tamil connection
How can anyone belonging to Tamil Nadu forget the unique relationship this part of the country had with a young Bengali saint who became the world-renowned Swami Vivekananda? It is well known that as a parivrajakacharya (wandering monk), Vivekananda reached Kanyakumari, swam across the sea, reached a rock and sat there in meditation for a few days. Although he had heard that a World Parliament of Religions was to take place in Chicago and a few people in Western India had suggested that he should participate, he could not make up his mind for long.

It was during his visit to Tamil Nadu that he decided to accept the challenge and proceed to America. Even then, he was debating with himself on whether he was genuinely interested in representing an ancient tradition of spirituality or was perhaps giving room to his ego to project himself. The enthusiasm of his disciples in Tamil Nadu led by Alasingar of Tiruvallikeni in Chennai helped him make up his mind.

The decision was clinched when a letter of blessings came from Sri Sarada Mata in Kolkata urging him to proceed to Chicago. The funds collected for his trip by his Tamil devotees became the nucleus which was strengthened by the generosity of the Maharaja of Ketri.

Half a century after the Chicago lecture, Rajaji said in simple words, "Swami Vivekananda saved Hinduism and saved India. But for him we would have lost our religion and would not have gained our freedom. We therefore owe everything to Swami Vivekananda. May his faith, his courage and his wisdom ever inspire us so that we may keep safe the treasure we have received from him!"

(Dr. S. Krishnaswamy is a documentary and television film maker and founder of the recently launched Tamil/English Heritage Channel, KRISHNA-TV.)

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article3917843.ece?homepage=true#.UFskBIOkrlI.email


Thanks & Regards,


Sudhir Srinivasan
B.Arch, MSc.CPM, Dip.ID, Dip.CAD, Dip.PM, Dip.LD
| Architect |









__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190



Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

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