Agree! If Bangladeshis had respected the indigenous rights to their property and land, there would not be any need for Shanti Bahini fighting in CHT. People like QR do not realize how stinky their own farts smell. These people love insurgency in a foreign country but not in their own holy, Paki land? They love secularism in a foreign country but prefer religious supremacy in their own backyard because that is granted by all mighty Allah?
-SD
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-Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190
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-SD
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss
-Seuss
On Sunday, December 8, 2013 7:41 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
"No doubt India actively supported Shantibahini. Obviously that was not right."- SC
Lopsided info can lead to uncharted area. The tribal insurgency was a consequence of withdrawing their right as a protected people. Their land (community property) was grabbed and redistributed to mostly Muslim non-tribal. Not even Pakistan did what Bangladesh did to them! If supporting the "Shanti" was wrong, so was supporting the liberation movement of Bangladesh.On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 3:47 AM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
1. Can you prove that India wants to be your master, not friend? Is your statement not too strong?2. If China wants to use Bangladesh as a tool to expand it's sphere of influence in the Bay of Bengal, is it not natural for India to express concern and talk with Bangladesh?3. Talpotti, sharing water, border killings, etc. need to be resolved, no doubt. I believe these can be solved through friendly talks. Sharing water is more complicated as it involves two governments---central and provincial---in India. Any way, it is the responsibility of the Indian government with which only Bangladesh can talk.4. No doubt India actively supported Shantibahini. Obviously that was not right. But don't pretend to be naive. Security-wise, India probably is more vulnerable when BNP is in power as we have read reports on ISI connection in destabilizing regional peace in India.5. Can you be specific? Who were those SOBs?6. Why is India putting fence and observation towers in the borders? What is your guess? It is obviously humiliating for Bangladesh. But is it really hampering the national interests of Bangladesh in any way? Mexico would love to see no Americans patrolling the border although all the costs are being borne by America.7. Politics is a vital part of our every day life. Why do you hesitate to talk about it and the political parties and the politicians? I was never a member of Chhatra League or AL. But I have never kept it secret that of all the major parties (AL, BNP, JP, and Jamaat), my best preference would be AL. They are absolutely not the same animals. My assertion is based on my own ideology. I am for going back to 1972 constitution and make it better. I am happy that war criminals have been brought to justice. I can expect these to a great extent only from AL.8. I always respect common people. I hope you have noticed it. I was talking about rabid anti-Indians.
Sent from my iPhone1. China's track record is not good. China is not on good terms with Taiwan. Dalailama is not happy with what China is doing to Tibet. Muslims in Uyghur are not happy with the Chinese administration. China occupies about 10,000 square miles of Indian territory and also a part of J&K (alleged to be a gift by Pakistan). China was against our war of independence. More informed people will come up with more about China.
>>>>>>>>>> This will be a very long post if I have go around other sides of China or India. So decided stay close to our neighborhood. China has been much better to Bangladesh than India. As a Bangladeshi this should be OUR starting point.
India should have been our best friend but it wants to be our master. We had British masters, Pakistani masters and we decided we don't like them very much. So India has to decide if it can approach us like a friend or master.
I do not have any bad feeling towards any FOREIGN countries but if I have to judge, I have to go by what we see.
2. In the domain of foreign policy, there is no room for being naive. Expressing concern about the security of the country is a rational thing to do. For various reasons China is not a good neighbor of India. China, already a super power both militarily and economically, needs to expand it's sphere of influence to the Bay of Bengal. Expressing concern must go hand in hand with diplomatic moves.
>>>>>>>> This conversation should be between Indians and Chinese.
3. Even a least powerful neighbor can be an irritant by joining hands with an enemy neighbor or by supporting insurgency. The infamous10 truck-loads of arms imported using Chittagong port is a good example. Weakening India internally causing insurgency can be beneficial to China and Pakistan. The Muslim majority Pakistan is not on good terms with Afghanistan and worked as an agent to push Afghanistan backward in history. Nepal can be on good terms with China and at the same time can become a pain for India. it is all regional politics. It also depends largely on what party is in power. Anti-India policy worked well before 1971 for the Pakistani rulers and the same was like opiate for the Bengalis for some time. It works well even today.
>>>>>>> India also supported "Shanti bahini" against Bangladesh. If it has good relations with Bangladesh, we have NO interest being anti-Indian. It is perverted Indian policies (Water sharing, border killing, uneven trade, land grab (Talpotti) etc) that turned most people of this country against India. It is the SAME nation which fought a war against Pakistan. India tried to become our master, so Bangabandhu kicked those SOB out of our land (WIth American help).
4. Theoretically it sounds good to have perfectly porous borders allowing free movements without visa and passport. It would be a boon for those countries whose people need to migrate to other countries in search of various opportunities. But the reality teaches otherwise. The USA spends huge amount of money to stop illegal immigration. Barbed wire fence is a big politics both in India and Bangladesh. Indian contractors are making huge money. It may however ultimately pay off in terms of the need for deploying fewer BSF jawans in border areas.
>>>>>>> Free movement cannot happen overnight but both nations should work as a team to improve relations. Sadly Indians (Leaders) spend more time putting road blocks for this impoverish nation than lending a friendly hand. This is the POLICY of India (I am not commenting on common people of India). India treats ALL of her neighboring nations like a colonial master.
It cost much less to improve relationship than spending billions on guarding border with a no-threat country like Bangladesh.
5. Leaders know what to ask for and hence what to negotiate for. The equation is not very simple. Was it not rabid anti-Indian politician Kazi Zafar Ahmed (or Rtd. Colonel Akbar Hossain!) who during his tenure as a minister wanted to sell gas to India? It has been reported that Ziaur Rahman was ready to approve the Indian plan for Tipaimukh hydroelectric project. Record shows that AL secured highest amount of cu-sec water from the Ganges. Slogan-wise BNP seems to be the most patriotic ruler in the history of Bangladesh. This claim cannot be substantiated. But it is true that because of the presence of the so called pro-Chinese and pro-Pakistani elements (both the groups are anti-Indians and acted on their behalf against our independence) within the party, BNP is by heart and head anti-Indian but by hand will not hesitate to nakedly serve Indian interests at the cost of the national interest.
>>>>>>>> Problem with you is you cannot go beyond your love for BAL party. I am NOT talking about our political parties. To me there are NO fundamental difference between BNP and BAL. We need to be realists not fanatic. I do not support fanatical anti-Indian leaders. I feel BOTH countries will benefit if we have a functional, dignified and trusting relationship. I generally talk less about politics (Because we are not mature enough to talk rationally about it) so even if I ever Criticize BAL policies, please do not take that as an endorsement for other political parties.
6. To the rabid anti-Indians, India will never be popular. That is the slogan (overt or covert) devoid of even slightest patriotism and Bengali spirits on which their politics always thrives.
>>>>>>>>>> If you keep defending perverted Indian policies, your idea will not be popular either. Do not blame Bangladeshi people for it. We do not like people who put other nations interest over our own. Over and over our common people proved that point.
We have much more in common with India (history, culture, taste etc) than any other nations. Still India is not very popular and simply blaming our people will never get anyone to the true answer.
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 7, 2013 8:26 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: [notun_bangladesh] Indian Navy concerned over Bangladesh's decision to buy submarines from China
1. China's track record is not good. China is not on good terms with Taiwan. Dalailama is not happy with what China is doing to Tibet. Muslims in Uyghur are not happy with the Chinese administration. China occupies about 10,000 square miles of Indian territory and also a part of J&K (alleged to be a gift by Pakistan). China was against our war of independence. More informed people will come up with more about China.
2. In the domain of foreign policy, there is no room for being naive. Expressing concern about the security of the country is a rational thing to do. For various reasons China is not a good neighbor of India. China, already a super power both militarily and economically, needs to expand it's sphere of influence to the Bay of Bengal. Expressing concern must go hand in hand with diplomatic moves.
3. Even a least powerful neighbor can be an irritant by joining hands with an enemy neighbor or by supporting insurgency. The infamous10 truck-loads of arms imported using Chittagong port is a good example. Weakening India internally causing insurgency can be beneficial to China and Pakistan. The Muslim majority Pakistan is not on good terms with Afghanistan and worked as an agent to push Afghanistan backward in history. Nepal can be on good terms with China and at the same time can become a pain for India. it is all regional politics. It also depends largely on what party is in power. Anti-India policy worked well before 1971 for the Pakistani rulers and the same was like opiate for the Bengalis for some time. It works well even today.
4. Theoretically it sounds good to have perfectly porous borders allowing free movements without visa and passport. It would be a boon for those countries whose people need to migrate to other countries in search of various opportunities. But the reality teaches otherwise. The USA spends huge amount of money to stop illegal immigration. Barbed wire fence is a big politics both in India and Bangladesh. Indian contractors are making huge money. It may however ultimately pay off in terms of the need for deploying fewer BSF jawans in border areas.
5. Leaders know what to ask for and hence what to negotiate for. The equation is not very simple. Was it not rabid anti-Indian politician Kazi Zafar Ahmed (or Rtd. Colonel Akbar Hossain!) who during his tenure as a minister wanted to sell gas to India? It has been reported that Ziaur Rahman was ready to approve the Indian plan for Tipaimukh hydroelectric project. Record shows that AL secured highest amount of cu-sec water from the Ganges. Slogan-wise BNP seems to be the most patriotic ruler in the history of Bangladesh. This claim cannot be substantiated. But it is true that because of the presence of the so called pro-Chinese and pro-Pakistani elements (both the groups are anti-Indians and acted on their behalf against our independence) within the party, BNP is by heart and head anti-Indian but by hand will not hesitate to nakedly serve Indian interests at the cost of the national interest.
6. To the rabid anti-Indians, India will never be popular. That is the slogan (overt or covert) devoid of even slightest patriotism and Bengali spirits on which their politics always thrives.
On Friday, December 6, 2013 5:54 PM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
In my recent posts, I actually blamed OUR leaders more than India. It is only natural that, India would look out for it's interest.
To small country like ours, we need to have good relations with both of these future mega powers.
Now let us compare Indian POLICIES with Chinese POLICIES. You ask around south Asian nations about these two countries. India is known for poking it's nose deeply inside DOMESTIC affairs of her neighbors. China is known to improve relations by providing infrastructural help to nations around it.
You go to Afghanistan, you will see hospitals made by the Chinese. You do to Pakistan, Bangladesh or Sri Lanka you will see solid Chinese contribution to improve state of these nations.
India on the other hand do spend money on her neighbors BUT mostly to bring unrest, hostility in those nations. Then it ends of spending a lot of money putting expensive fence around it and fear-mongering (About it's neighbors) inside the country.
One is a win-win formula and later is a lose-loser formula. To be fair, I do not see how India wins this way. It just ends of wasting a lot of money on unnecessary projects and buying arms against invisible enemies. Most of it's neighbors (Except China) are capable of doing anything to India anyway.
Lastly, India navy can express concern. We need not to worry about it. It is ONLY natural that we'll try to protect our land and water areas. I am not sure WHY it is a problem for India?
Both of our top political parties have good relations with India (BNP is not so much anti-Indian anymore).
Unless India changes it's loser posture, it will not be popular to our people. While we have tons more reasons to have best relations with India. But India keeps FAILING India!!
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 6:26 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: [notun_bangladesh] Indian Navy concerned over Bangladesh's decision to buy submarines from China
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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration:
Call For Articles:
http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68
http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585
****************************************************
VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/
****************************************************
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
-Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190
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