Precisely, "respecting someone's 'right' to believe is not the same thing as respecting his/her belief."
Let me add that a genuine humanist could not respect anyone's belief in injustice and hatred. For example, I do not respect anyone's (including the willing victim's) beliefs such as, 'two women's testimony would be equivalent to one man's' and 'a woman would go to heaven if she killed herself in the funeral pyre her husband.' We can come up with many other examples where we just could not respect the belief.
However, we do not respect someone's belief does not mean we would kill him/her for that belief. Depending on the belief and how it is followed, reeducation or harsher actions need to be taken against it for a good world. Respecting people's right to believe in hatred would be too wrong. Obviously, in forums like Mukto-Mona, good contributors write against hatred; we do not have the power to take harsher actions even when we feel the need.
SuBain
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On Monday, July 6, 2015 8:16 PM, "Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Sukhamoy Bain quoted one of your fallacies: "I have deep respect for every body's belief although I may not agree with those beliefs."
You said you have deep respect for everyone's belief, even though you disagree with them. I believe you wanted to say - I have deep respect for your right to believe in anything, but I can't support them.
Respecting someone's 'right' to believe is not the same thing as respecting his/her belief. Your explanation below proves that you don't understand the difference.
Jiten Roy
From: "Subimal Chakrabarty subimal@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 6, 2015 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Happy 4th of July to mukto-mona
I don't understand why you don't understand what I am saying. It is 'jolobot torolong'. Read it again, you will get it. Let me give another example. You believe in God, I don't. I will defend your right to express your belief although I will not share with your belief. We can however sit together to discuss the issue. This is the civilized way to deal with such things. To have on your wish list that my messages not be entertained by the group is not proper.
Mukto-Mona uses a quote from Voltaire which goes like this: I don't agree with you on what you are saying, but I will fight to the last to defend your right to express your opinion.
You don't have to agree, but disagree most respectfully. These are exactly the policies I try to follow. I hope this will clarify my position and you yourself and your cohorts should have answers to all questions you are asking me.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 5, 2015, at 9:37 PM, Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I don't even understand what you are saying. You 'respect' opinions that you don't believe in. That's called hypocrisy. I call this cowardice. You said - you live among believers, so, you cannot criticize them. Well, if you can't criticize, it's OK, but don't praise some opinions that you don't believe in. That's a disingenuous respond.Now, I understand why some of your responses are not published. I am sure, they must be meaningless/hypocritical/disingenuous responses. I called them meaningless because you don't mean what you say.Jiten Roy
From: "Subimal Chakrabarty subimal@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>; "jnrsr53@yahoo.com" <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>; "kamalctgu@gmail.com" <kamalctgu@gmail.com>; "farida_majid@hotmail.com" <farida_majid@hotmail.com>; "anujuniv@gmail.com" <anujuniv@gmail.com>; ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>; "shahdeeldar@yahoo.com" <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2015 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Happy 4th of July to mukto-mona
Thanks. Showing respect to one's (right to express) opinion is not same thing as sharing his opinion. If an orthodox Hindu believes that a man is superior to a woman, I will definitely not share his opinion. I will definitely engage in debate with him. As a matter of fact it is constantly being done by our thinkers and writers.Thanks for your advice which definitely I will not follow to demean myself. You have every right to accuse me of being politically correct. But sorry I cannot buy it.
Sent from my iPhoneWell, Professor Chakrabarty, you have asked me to give an example of where you have tried to be politically correct. Over the years I have criticized you many times for the political correctness of the time. Why are you asking for an example now? But thanks to you, I do not have to dig anywhere. Here is one from you post now, "I have deep respect for every body's belief although I may not agree with those beliefs." Do you respect the belief that women are inferior to men? Do you respect the belief that believers (of God) are not to take unbelievers (of God) as friends? Do you respect the belief that God has serious punishment for people who do not believe in God? (What a nonsense; I punish you if you do not believe in my existence! I am the almighty, all controlling, and merciful God; but I do not use my might, controlling power and mercy to create you with a mind of believing in me; I need to threaten you with punishment in order to make a believer out of you!!)Now, let me give you an advice, Mr. Chakrabarty. Please stop being so politically correct as to say any nonsense like you have 'deep respect for every body's belief.' If you are not willing to trash the hateful and foolish religious beliefs, just keep quiet; as opposed to saying something that you do not mean and cannot defend. (I am willing to understand your silence, as I could see the realities of the lives of people like you.)SuBain====================
On Sunday, July 5, 2015 1:07 PM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
If I remember correctly, Prof. Majid's email was posted by Mukto-Mona. I want to believe that some of my messages not published by this yahoo group is because of some technical reason. Jahed, one of the moderators, is on the recipient list. He should know what is going on. I do not want to believe that Mukto-Mona is too coward to publish posts contents of which differ from the the group's philosophy. I don't want to believe that the group is do autocratic. If the group wants to remove my name, I don't have any problem. But I would expect that it would honestly let me know why it has removed my name.
It is good that we do not agree with one another on every point. Diversity is the life blood of every group or society.
Mr. Deeldar once said that I am a good man but naive. I don't know how good I am. But I am not naive at all. This is not the first time that you have accused me of being 'politically correct'. For obvious reasons I do not say every thing that I feel like saying. But if I have said or say any thing, I do it out of my beliefs and convictions. It is your choice how you want to see me. Why don't you give an example of where I have tried to be politically correct.
When I engage in a debate, I do it with civility. I counter attack if some one attacks me with nasty words. As I have said many times, I have been a confirmed atheist for more than 45 years. But like many others I live among the believers. I have deep respect for every body's belief although I may not agree with those beliefs. I have my own ethical and moral standards. These are obviously subjective. These standards are very important for me.
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
Well, Mr. Chakrabarty, I generally read your posts; although I do not agree with quite a bit of your political correctness. However, let me tell you that I can see why the Mukto-Mona team and the cc-ed individuals ignored the Jul 3, 2015, 2:32 PM, post by Farida Majid. Her charges against Mukto-Mona could not be taken seriously, not were they worth any response.Let me give you the sequence of events that made her upset.Jun 15, 2015, 11:16 PM: Farida Majid posts the article titled "India's 1947 Partition And The 'Deadly Legacy' That Persists To This Day" by Nisid Hazari.Jun 16, 2015, 7:42 AM: I make the following comments: "The deadly legacy did not begin in 1947 in the Indian subcontinent. It began in the 7th century Arabia. Look, if it were just the 1947 India, neither Bangladesh nor Pakistan would have had Islam in the business of the state. If these two countries were respectful of the non-Muslims of the land, today they would be competing friendly with India on secular humanism, justice, peace, science, technology, and prosperity. Blaming it all on 1947, the British rulers, etc. is really diverting the reality of the last 65 years. (Assume the first 3 years to be the unavoidable turbulent time after the partition). I would not be surprised if Nisid Hajari is paid by the pan-Islamic powers/interest groups."Jun 16, 2015, 11:20 PM: Ali Shaheen comments, "Incredible! Do say more on how it began in 7th. century Arabia? Did Muhammad call for the division of India?! .........."Jun 17, 2015, 6:15 PM: Farida Majid comments, "Shaheen, Sukhmay Bain is a tiresome troll whose heart is blackened by a communal rage. He says outrageously absurd things against the Muslims day after day, month after month, year after year. ..........."Jun 18 2015, 7:06 AM: I comment, "Most of the time I ignore Farida Majid. She masquerades as a rational human being, but in reality her mind is subservient to the prescriptions of her religion, which obviously she cannot hide. I feel pity for her kind of people who, in spite of a good deal of academic accomplishment in humanities/sciences, remain captive to the stupidity and hatred of their religions."Now, let me ask you to comment on the point that I take seriously, "Look, if it were just the 1947 India, neither Bangladesh nor Pakistan would have had Islam in the business of the state. If these two countries were respectful of the non-Muslims of the land, today they would be competing friendly with India on secular humanism, justice, peace, science, technology, and prosperity. Blaming it all on 1947, the British rulers, etc. is really diverting the reality of the last 65 years."I can understand that your style would be different, but tell me what was the reason for the Islamization of Bangladesh, and if/how my comments were hateful to the Muslims.As for Islam, any rational human being who read the books of that religion know that it does not respect non-Muslims. I certainly would maintain that the followers of Islam need serious re-education; and I am sure that a humanist like you would not find any hatred in my comments.Thanks,Sukhamaya Bain======================================On Saturday, July 4, 2015 10:34 PM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sometimes my email messages get lost in action. This may be due to some technical reason. I hope it is not due to any hidden policies of Mukto-Mona which I am not aware of. Muktomona's open policy or philosophy is to respect opinions. I hope it not only preaches, it practices also. If this declared policy is obeyed by the administrators, this forum will help the participants in engaging meaningful engagements.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 3, 2015, at 2:32 PM, Farida Majid farida_majid@hotmail.com [mukto-mona] <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:. . . and an essay for its die-hard racist stalwarts in mukto-mona where Islamophobia is the only permissible expression that is in fashion. Flatly stated, if you're not an Islamophobe you're an ineligible member of the club "Mukto mona". A female with a Muslim name, wanting to plead for our traditional Bangla (Indian) pluralism, would be viciously attacked for her sex, religion, age, class and education. She would be considered a 'non-human' -- a kind of a demon.
Sukhmaya Bain, a regular mukto-mona participator, has no qualms in posting gratuitous, racial slanderous comment on Farida Majid, a female 'demon' with a Muslim name -- <<"She masquerades as a rational human being, but in reality her mind is subservient to the prescriptions of her religion, which obviously she cannot hide. I feel pity for her kind of people who, in spite of a good deal of academic accomplishment in humanities/sciences, remain captive to the stupidity and hatred of their religions." -- Bain says he can PROVE that every word of it is RIGHT. Let him and/or his solicitor attempt to PROVE every word of the above statement as RIGHT in a Court of Law.James Loewen on Racism and US History
MP3 Link
This week on CounterSpin: "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past," recited Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984. Nowadays, news media have a good deal of control over our knowledge and understanding of the past: The Fourth of July weekend will doubtless feature media chatter about what America "stands for," and how our history has shaped us.
But much of the talk will bear little relationship to the country's actual history, which is roughly a million times more complicated and conflict-riddled than the image we are usually presented: a more or less steady march of "progress," with perhaps a few bumps in the road. Someone who's thought a lot about how we mis-learn history and how that shapes our political life is James W. Loewen. He's the author of the classic book, Lies My Teacher Told Me, which assesses the textbooks used in US classrooms, turning up falsehoods, elisions and distortions. He explains some of the reasons students say they hate history–and non-white students hate it most of all.
For Independence Day, then, CounterSpin presents an extended interview with author and professor James Loewen.
LINK:
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Posted by: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
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Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration:
Call For Articles:
http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68
http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585
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VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/
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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
-Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190
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