I differ from you on several points here, Dr. Roy.
1) Caste system never had what you called 'glory'. It was wrong even under the best of interpretations. If people were to be divided based upon profession, there had to be accredited institutions that would certify each person's profession; and when profession changed, the previous certificate had to be replaced with a new one.
Now, don't tell me that all kinds of people all over the world would continue to identify themselves in terms of their professions, caste system or not. There is nothing wrong in it, except when it is tied to the stupidity of religions, except when people are not given the opportunity to choose their profession, except when a basic level of respect for humanity is not accorded to all honest and needed profession.
2) Intra-commune division is not communality (sectarian division/hatred)!! What an absurd argument! When you have four castes, you do not have one community, Dr. Roy; you have four.
3) You are missing a critical aspect of what you called 'intra-commune' divisions. When a so-called untouchable Hindu became a Muslim, he got promoted to a human from dirt; don't you agree? After that, do you really think that that Muslim human would be likely to love the Hindu humans? I would say, he would be likely to hate Hindus, unless if he were an exceptionally tolerant/wise person. Now, there don't you have the caste system to a great extent responsible for the Hindu-Muslim hatred?
Sukhamaya Bain
================================
On Sunday, April 10, 2016 10:17 PM, "Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Yes, I meant to say that - caste-system is almost non-existent. Thank you.
I am sure caste-system still exists in peoples' mind, but it has lost its past glory. I would not call caste-system as communality, because caste-system is an intra-commune system. Also, hatred within the caste system flows in all directions; even Shudras hate non-Shudras as well.
I know a case, where a Brahmin girl, from a very prominent progressive family, fell in love with a highly educated Shudra boy. When girl's family agreed to their marriage, boy's family and his society was against it. Even people demonstrated in front of boy's home. Fortunately, those two families finally agreed, and the marriage ceremony went through. So, the caste hatred is a complicated issue.
Here, I am talking about the communality that is causing religious persecution and murder.
Jiten Roy
From: "Sukhamaya Bain subain1@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Religion-based Nationalism is back in Full Force
Yes, Dr. Roy, I was not talking about the state of the caste system now. I was talking about the past where the caste system was certainly a big factor in the birth and continuation of sectarian hatred (aka: communalism) in the subcontinent. By the way, the caste system is hardly almost non-existent now. (I suppose you meant "almost non-existent now", but actually wrote "almost existent now".) Even among the urban elite, including some PhD degree holders that hold good positions in the USA, it still exists. It certainly very much exists in a lot of places in India.
Religion peddlers are not the only species to blame here. Without serious beliefs in the religious nonsense among the population at large, the peddlers could not be very successful, could they? If there were no fools, who could the crooks fool?
SuBain
=============================
On Sunday, April 10, 2016 1:03 PM, "Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Caste system is a dying concept now. As, the so called, backward class gets education and other opportunities, which they will, the natural force will take care of the class system.
Dr. Bain is talking about half a century old perception that is almost existent now. The concept of religious identity is the source of communality; attention needs to be focused on that front.
As I see – religion and religious identity are two separate entities. Religion is a belief system, which has nothing to do with changing one's identity, as it does now. We should have only one identity, and that is – we are human, and human may have many beliefs; religion or lack thereof is one such belief. That's all.
Unfortunately, religion-peddlers needed to introduce religious identity with each religion to serve their interests. That process has divided human race into various communes, and introduced communality.
I understand, the natural tendency of all species is to form commune, but, human beings may have taken this tendency into extreme - by dividing the race into millions of communes and sub-communes; human race has lost equilibrium now.
When equilibrium is broken, nature will take its turn to attain equilibrium. That process has started; it will go on until we all become human again.
Jiten Roy
From: "Kamal Das kamalctgu@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Religion-based Nationalism is back in Full Force
Ronald Inden, a Chicago based Indologist, wrote Hindu caste system was the product of Turkish rule in India. Earlier caste was based on profession, later it was inherited by birth. However, in this backward society even my students of Brahman ancestry bow down to pick dust from my toe, an act otherwise known as pranama.
From: "Kamal Das kamalctgu@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Religion-based Nationalism is back in Full Force
Ronald Inden, a Chicago based Indologist, wrote Hindu caste system was the product of Turkish rule in India. Earlier caste was based on profession, later it was inherited by birth. However, in this backward society even my students of Brahman ancestry bow down to pick dust from my toe, an act otherwise known as pranama.
From: "Kamal Das kamalctgu@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Religion-based Nationalism is back in Full Force
Ronald Inden, a Chicago based Indologist, wrote Hindu caste system was the product of Turkish rule in India. Earlier caste was based on profession, later it was inherited by birth. However, in this backward society even my students of Brahman ancestry bow down to pick dust from my toe, an act otherwise known as pranama.
From: "Kamal Das kamalctgu@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Religion-based Nationalism is back in Full Force
Ronald Inden, a Chicago based Indologist, wrote Hindu caste system was the product of Turkish rule in India. Earlier caste was based on profession, later it was inherited by birth. However, in this backward society even my students of Brahman ancestry bow down to pick dust from my toe, an act otherwise known as pranama.
From: "Sukhamaya Bain subain1@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Religion-based Nationalism is back in Full Force
Yes, Dr. Roy, I was not talking about the state of the caste system now. I was talking about the past where the caste system was certainly a big factor in the birth and continuation of sectarian hatred (aka: communalism) in the subcontinent. By the way, the caste system is hardly almost non-existent now. (I suppose you meant "almost non-existent now", but actually wrote "almost existent now".) Even among the urban elite, including some PhD degree holders that hold good positions in the USA, it still exists. It certainly very much exists in a lot of places in India.
Religion peddlers are not the only species to blame here. Without serious beliefs in the religious nonsense among the population at large, the peddlers could not be very successful, could they? If there were no fools, who could the crooks fool?
SuBain
=============================
On Sunday, April 10, 2016 1:03 PM, "Jiten Roy jnrsr53@yahoo.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Caste system is a dying concept now. As, the so called, backward class gets education and other opportunities, which they will, the natural force will take care of the class system.
Dr. Bain is talking about half a century old perception that is almost existent now. The concept of religious identity is the source of communality; attention needs to be focused on that front.
As I see – religion and religious identity are two separate entities. Religion is a belief system, which has nothing to do with changing one's identity, as it does now. We should have only one identity, and that is – we are human, and human may have many beliefs; religion or lack thereof is one such belief. That's all.
Unfortunately, religion-peddlers needed to introduce religious identity with each religion to serve their interests. That process has divided human race into various communes, and introduced communality.
I understand, the natural tendency of all species is to form commune, but, human beings may have taken this tendency into extreme - by dividing the race into millions of communes and sub-communes; human race has lost equilibrium now.
When equilibrium is broken, nature will take its turn to attain equilibrium. That process has started; it will go on until we all become human again.
Jiten Roy
From: "Kamal Das kamalctgu@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Religion-based Nationalism is back in Full Force
Ronald Inden, a Chicago based Indologist, wrote Hindu caste system was the product of Turkish rule in India. Earlier caste was based on profession, later it was inherited by birth. However, in this backward society even my students of Brahman ancestry bow down to pick dust from my toe, an act otherwise known as pranama.
From: "Kamal Das kamalctgu@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Religion-based Nationalism is back in Full Force
Ronald Inden, a Chicago based Indologist, wrote Hindu caste system was the product of Turkish rule in India. Earlier caste was based on profession, later it was inherited by birth. However, in this backward society even my students of Brahman ancestry bow down to pick dust from my toe, an act otherwise known as pranama.
From: "Kamal Das kamalctgu@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Religion-based Nationalism is back in Full Force
Ronald Inden, a Chicago based Indologist, wrote Hindu caste system was the product of Turkish rule in India. Earlier caste was based on profession, later it was inherited by birth. However, in this backward society even my students of Brahman ancestry bow down to pick dust from my toe, an act otherwise known as pranama.
From: "Kamal Das kamalctgu@gmail.com [mukto-mona]" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2016 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Religion-based Nationalism is back in Full Force
Ronald Inden, a Chicago based Indologist, wrote Hindu caste system was the product of Turkish rule in India. Earlier caste was based on profession, later it was inherited by birth. However, in this backward society even my students of Brahman ancestry bow down to pick dust from my toe, an act otherwise known as pranama.
