| Sorry to inform you that all Trading Houses in Venice, Italy in 15th Century, where it had all started were not owned by Jews and I repeat. Anybody could mint Gold Coins before birth of Central Banks. Central Banks had started printing Paper Currency in lieu of Gold Coins in late 1800's but then they had started over-issuing. Sir, I wish to stress that Money was traditionally [evolved] Metal Backed. Money, the medium of exchange/store of value, was not discovered by Houses or by anyone. . TURKMAN: True but I was talking about Paper Currency. ------------------ Through time, the Dollar evolved as the ' market currency ' in USA and similarly in other countries with their currencies. I suppose the US gov in 1800s took over Dollar printing but backed by Gold. There were Certificates, now paper currencies, issued against Gold deposits for market transactions. Coins could be issued by anybody but someone had to 'certify' to prove its worth to win the trust of the people. . TURKMAN: People knew, how tell if a Coin was all Gold or not. And its weight determined its value. --------------- Banking, or lending, started when depositors were seen not to withdraw all their ' money at one time '. I do not know when and where. . TURKMAN: There was no need to earn Interest in Gold Standard because value of Gold used to keep rising. We were in Deflationary Cycle or just opposite of what we have now so, rich people used to bury their excessive Gold Coins. No Banks were needed. ----------------- In Britain today there are areas, as they showed on BBC TV , where people are circulating their own form of money , to transact in their grocery stores, with falling GBP . Even I can mint a coin but I cannot 'legally' circulate it beyond my home. . TURKMAN: Gold Coin you still can. The Goldsmith would still buy it from you. ---------------- Kings and now Governments always owned money in circulation as control of money gives them imperial power. . TURKMAN: Not true. Private Money has always been private throughout ages. -------------------- The Taka or Rupee is the 'sole legal tender' as all currencies are of their governments. I have not heard of private money in circulation maybe in few pockets or illegally. The important thing is the value of money/coins and how much faith the people have in their money as a store of value/medium of exchange. Gov/central banks have failed to do this. . TURKMAN: You are totally confused. I said, in the days of Marx, anybody could 'mint' (because there were no Central Banks or Paper Money), not 'print'. --------------- Economist Keynes was not for running government on Deficit and printing of money to feed government's Deficit Spending. He was a Protectionist. He was for high Tariffs against Imports and those had been implemented before the 1934 New Deal of the newly elected US President, Franklin D. Roosevelt that you are blaming everything on. Keynes formula is Deficit spending, to spend more than income to create Full Employment . Gov spending to increase Demand. Banks lend to boost demand [loose monetary]. The process led to severe over printing and Dollar that was tied to Gold, after 1913 and War II, broke that link in 1971 when Nixon said USA is bankrupt. . TURKMAN: How was Dollar 'over-printed', when USA had more Gold in Reserves than the Dollars it had printed? ... In 1971, USA Nixon had announced that USA would not be selling Gold if any nation returns Dollars. ... Printing of Dollars more than what was in Gold Reserves had started in 1934, not in 1971. In 1944, when IMF was formed, Gold's International Price was fixed and since USA was the biggest Creditor Nation of the world, Dollar was declared 'Fiat Currency'. ------------------- The New Deal was Socialistic and because of it USA, a country poorer than India was put on the path to advancement, prosperity and Super Power Status. You would not be in USA if there was no New Deal. USA did not recover by New Deal but after the War. It is because US has Rule of Law and greater market/personal freedom [enterprise]/property rights. India, at least during its socialist era, had everything opposite. . TURKMAN: Its all propaganda of American Capitalists that you have been reading. 4 months after FDR took over Stock Market had risen more than 50%. Un-employment was 26% before Reform. Despite that he raised Minimum Wage 50 times for Deep South, still un-employment was gone down to 10% in just few years. Standard of Living of USA was risen by Min. Wage Law, Social Security Payments, Welfare Payments, Un-employment Benefits Law etc immediately. 20% of Americans had Servants in their Homes before reform. Just a few years after Reform? Less than 1% because desparaty between rich and poor was reduced. Economy grew at the pace of 15% a year after Reforms and kept growing at that pace to make USA become the Richest Country on Earth by late 1950's. Recovery that Capitalists are talking about is Dow Jones reaching the same Bubble High again that it had reached because of Speculative Instruments and no Regulations just like we had recently, when those Regulations were written off by Republican Capitalists. Dow Jones had took 7 years to reach the same high in 1941. ------------------ Before 2008 Stock Market crash, US Economy was already suffering from export of 10 million jobs to China, India and other countries. Its not all fault of Mortgage and Housing Market collapse because of deregulation or rules set up in 1934 caused by Republicans so, the Bankers could cheat. During the same period (1980-2009) 1/3rd of population of Mexico and millions of Immigrants also moved in to USA aggravating Job shortages further. It has nothing to do with Socialized Capitalism or Marxism. Its just mismanagement of Economy. I see it as mismanagement of Dollar. The jobs went overseas because of the falling Dollar value. Cheap money led to a boom and now a bust. . TURKMAN: You made me laugh. High Wages caused by high exchange rate of Dollar caused export of jobs by the Capitalists of US to Communist China as soon as she starting sleeping with them in 1981. --------------- . I don't see Capitalism dieing. I see crude Capitalism dieing and a lot more regulated Capitalism becoming stronger. Moslim Mollaas propagating that Capitalism is dieing, do not know any Economics otherwise, they would have known, Islamic System is a lot less regulated Capitalism than the one presently exists in the world. Capitalism is self-regulatory with least government intervention. . TURKMAN: Yeah, like recent crash of Housing Market and Mortgage Banking because Republicans had gotten away with 1934 New Deal Regulations, right? It was very Self Regulatory begging Washington to bail them out, right? ... God would not have created Socialist and Communist Thinkers if Capitalist were not so hearless, cruel and greedy. You have not seen the ugly real face of Capitalism before those Thinkers were born. The whole world was their Slave in those days. The King used to be the only rich and rest of the people Dirt Poor. Real Slavery was just a logical and practical form of Capitalism. I guess you want to go 6 Centuries back. What the hell are you doing in USA? Go to Zimbawe, (where a sort of old fashioned Capitalism is still thriving) ... and starve ...! -----------------
--- On Mon, 10/19/09, Nizam Ahmad <nizam_moer@sky.com> wrote:
I think Banking was Jewish speciality [private] and of course, currencies were metal backed, gold or silver, but the Monarch owned the Mint. Mises Institute, Alabama, USA could reveal more. Re today’s fiat currency, I mean the modern working class, not of Marx’s times, that benefited from FED’s loose monetary policy emphasised by Keynesian doctrines since the New Deal. BTW, the FED is no different from Marx’s Central Bank. -----Original Message-----
From: S Turkman [mailto:turkman@sbcglobal.net]
Excuse me sir but when Karl Marx was alive, there was no Paper Money. The World used to have Gold Standard in those days and there were no Central Banks. Any Trading House could mint Gold Coins or Currency. He was the 1st proponent of Central Bank of State and its the 1st Commandment of Communist Manifesto now being followed by all countries of the world. In Marx's days there were no Commerical Banks lending money to borrowers. There were no Depositors for Trading Houses or Banks or the early version of Banks.
--- On Mon, 10/19/09, Nizam Ahmad <nizam_moer@sky.com> wrote:
Dollars, Pound, Euro are already Nationalised currencies, as socialism/communism would want, as none of them is issued by private entrepreneurs but by respective governments/central banks. Enough money was printed, loose monetary policies, to help Marx’s working class to buy consumer goods and cars to bring them to a decent middle class standard. Few Hedge fund mavericks/speculators, or large bonuses to CEOs, are, maybe, greed but not pure capitalism. Time now is to adopt Capitalism in its real form, e.g. the denationalisation of money, and certainly to stay away from Marx and his predictions that would make matters far worse. -----Original Message-----
From: SAIF Davdas [mailto:islam1234@msn.com] In 1861, Karl Marx wrote, "Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more of expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until their debt becomes unbearable. The unpaid debt will lead to bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalized, and the State will have to take the road which will eventually lead to communism". Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I ask you---will you find any bigger prophet of Allah than this prescient man, Hazrat Karl Marx? Unfettered capitalism? The vernacular of conspicuous consumption no longer makes sense and no longer enjoys its old popularity to a conscientious mind. How much more irresponsible a government can become? How the US Government regulators can allow this derivatives and hedge fund driven securitization of the stock market? From Dhaka to Washington, this conspicuous consumption--the anti-human, anti-reason, un-civil, crude, cruel and monstrous ego-feeding circus must end to save the mankind now. Obama alone cannot do it. We need the second coming of Maha-Atma Gaandhi to shake the worlds conscious to wake it up. The call being sent out and increasingly heard by the masses of the world at large, though not in the bastion of free market Capitalism---United States of America--that we must find a way to combine socialism with capitalism. Greatest economic thinkers stupidly did not take into their equations the incredible volatility of human greed. The chasm between the haves and havenots is becoming deep and unbridgeable all over the world. A fairer distribution of wealth is not as terrible a concept as the rich would make us believe. There are a number of European countries that have successfully made progress in that direction. Let us investigate how they did it--instead of being a bunch of blind dogmatic foolish reactionaries.
SaifDevdas
islam1234@msn.com
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