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Monday, August 27, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Fwd: Can a Non muslim marry a muslim girl; Question...



Be frank and let me know if I cross the limits. 
O.K, so Jasimuddin was "technically" wrong. As per your explanation, then Islam does not "tolerate" that kind of humanism or liberalism! Do you have any theological proof in your hand? I want to know if such a written law exists at all, and if it does, when and by whom it was created. [As I have mentioned before, Hindu system has stricter laws. Good thing is that due to socio-economic conditions, those are now gradually becoming matters of the past. Even conservative parents feel good when they see that their son or daughter is in good hands.]


>>>>>>>>>> No problem, I don't think you crossed any limits here.

Islam is the first religion that openly prohibited burying new born girls by their own fathers. This was the tradition of the arabs back in 1400 years ago. Similar to what is happening in India with girl children in the womb!!

So Islam is NOT against humanism or liberalism.

So you may ask why does Islam does not "Allow" more interfaith marriages. It is a valid question.

Islam is a monotheistic faith and having faith in "One unseen God" is the foundation of this faith. When we have our partners with different religious practices, we may have confused children in the household. For example, Islam does allow Muslim men to marry Jewish or Christian women. However if you look around, very few of those unions have kids that are practicing Muslims ( You can ask around in north America).

Muslims men were allowed to marry from "Ahl-al-kitab" or people of the book (Jews and Christians) because he believes in all prophets, and all holy books. There will be no problem between him and his wife in this matter, especially that his religion -Islam- commands him to be fair with his wife even if she were Christian or Jewish. And any Muslim man going through such marriage should have strong belief in his faith, and should strongly abide by his religion.

However if you bring Hinduism to this equation or other non-monotheistic faiths, you will see one partner is praying to idols and another is doing something totally different. So you get confused kids.

Qur'an speaks about this topic in several places (For example: 2:221, 60:10). As per Islam, it is written by God Himself.

Yes, I agree with you that, conservative parents do like to send their daughters to good men (And vice versa). However according to Islam, the definition of a "Good man" also include who is "conscious of God" (Taqwa is Arabic). From faith point of view a person without consciousness of Creator of universe is not a "good person".


"Do not marry the polytheist women, unless they believe; a Muslim slave-girl is better than a polytheist woman, even though she may attract you; and do not give (your women) in marriage to polytheist men, unless they believe; a Muslim slave is better than a polytheist, even though he may attract you. They invite to the Fire when Allah invites, by His will, to Paradise, and to forgiveness. He makes His verses clear to the people, so that they may heed the advice."

[ Source: Al-Baqarah, 2:221 ]


While it is the religious point of view. Vast majority of Muslims are non-practicing and it is common to see inter-faith marriages now a days. I know few couples who married Hindu partners and also accepted by Bangladeshi Muslims (Socially).

Let the Christian husband go to church alone or with his Hindu wife, and let the Hindu wife go to temple alone or take her Christian husband with her. I have seen instances and  in all these cases apparently the couples seem to be happy.

>>>>>>>>>> From my personal experience, I can share that, those families can be "Happy" but generally they tend to stay away from religion. I have a nephew who has a Christian mother. He was very happy as a kid BECAUSE of it. He used to collect "Salami" and gifts during Eid and received gifts during Christmas as well. Now he is around 30 and does not practice any faith. Albeit he is leaning towards Christianity as his parents were divorced in his teen years.


Some Mughal kings' wives had temples built within the palace.

>>>>>>>> Even hard core Muslim like Aourangzeb used state money to built temple in Vanaras. Since Hindus also paid taxes to the state they were entitled to have their temples as well. Islam does not prohibit taking care of non-Muslims in any community/country.

Among Mughals Akbar was more of a politician than King. So he introduced a new religion instead of Islam. He tried to be part time Muslim and part time Hindu. Died being neither and his "Deen-e-elahi" died soon after with him. Which shows this is NOT a practical solution when it comes to faith matters.


They may suffer from an identity crisis if the society is not open


>>>>>>>>> Well I have seen this phenomenon in all corners of the globe. I have families all over (Including Japan). So I am speaking from practical experience.


This can be overcome I believe if we learn to become liberal with respect to our religious views.   


>>>>>>>>>> As I said before, Islam tought me to respect people of all faiths. It is in the Qur'an. However being liberal and compassionate is a DIFFERENT issue. For example, you can be accepting gay and lesbian people. However to show respect, you need not to turn into a gay person, marry one or expect your child to be one!! 

I am sure, if you show up in my house, I'll be happy. We can have long adda and debates (In good spirit). That does not require me to accept ALL of your views. In my real world, I have very close friends (Almost like family) who are Hindus and Christians. I enjoy them immensely. But I don't see any need to marry a Hindu woman to show "Respect".

To show respect, I don't cook beef for my Hindu guests. I ask them what they enjoy to eat and collect those items for them. They seem to be happy with that. Some of these "Relations" are over decades. I have seen my father with quite a few Hindu friends who had mutual respect for each others.

Hope you understand where I am coming from. If we have "Consciousness of God" as a priority of our lives, things work out.


Shalom!



-----Original Message-----
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 16, 2012 4:23 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Fwd: Can a Non muslim marry a muslim girl; Question...

 
I love to debate with you. With respect to religious belief, we are sitting at the two ends of a diameter and still seem to have mutual respect. Be frank and let me know if I cross the limits. 
O.K, so Jasimuddin was "technically" wrong. As per your explanation, then Islam does not "tolerate" that kind of humanism or liberalism! Do you have any theological proof in your hand? I want to know if such a written law exists at all, and if it does, when and by whom it was created. [As I have mentioned before, Hindu system has stricter laws. Good thing is that due to socio-economic conditions, those are now gradually becoming matters of the past. Even conservative parents feel good when they see that their son or daughter is in good hands.]
Would a family really become dysfunctional only because the two partners have different religions? How much time do we really spend in performing rituals? Let the Christian husband go to church alone or with his Hindu wife, and let the Hindu wife go to temple alone or take her Christian husband with her. I have seen instances and  in all these cases apparently the couples seem to be happy. I do not see any conflicts if you have respect for your partner. My experience is that conflicts arise out of nonreligious issues and some of the conflicts lead to divorce, separation, or even murder. Some Mughal kings' wives had temples built within the palace. 
The societies we live in are conservative. I can see a practical problem that the sons and daughters of a religiously heterogeneous couple face. They may suffer from an identity crisis if the society is not open. That is another issue and is mostly sociological. This can be overcome I believe if we learn to become liberal with respect to our religious views.     
 

From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Fwd: Can a Non muslim marry a muslim girl; Question...
 
My point is if it is possible to make a religion more humanistic. After all religions are for human beings and not the vice-versa---as a humanist that's what I believe.

>>>>>>>>>> In case of Islam, it covers a lot deeper than two people getting married. It considers children, values, family culture etc. Albeit both Hinduism and Islam have many "Common grounds", there are few "Fundamental" differences. Like Judaism, Islam is a monotheist faith. So the very foundation is based on "One unseen God". While Hinduism differs from this a great deal in practice. It is interesting that, a lot of Veda do talk about "One unseen God" (Nirakar). I understand and do appreciate good art work or creative genius like Jasim uddin. However religion is not about "Give and take". If I worship Durga and you pray namaz two time, we'll be neither Hindu not Muslim. As I said, I know few couples who have interfaith marriages but I do not know of anyone who are practicing their faith also. Making an idol of our Creator goes against the fundamental message of Islam (No gods but GOD!). Therefore, (My person opinion) Jasimuddin was a creative man and it "Looks nice" and "Feel good" with the ideas he portrayed. In real life it does not work. Based on my observation, it works when neither partners are commit to any faith, so they compromise and enjoy Eid, puja and Christmas all at the same time. When you ask someone like that, please tell me about "Concept of God", it will sound like a new idea which kind of "Do as you please" religion. No disrespect to any particular faith!! For example, I cannot be a member of BAL and Jamaat-e-Islami at the same time. If I say, I attend both of the party meetings and organize the teams, I don't think I would be acceptable to anyone. Therefore, while we should be friendly, accepting and tolerating different opinions and faiths, it is unwise to mix up religions. My two cents......Shalom!
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 7:58 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
Thanks. So both state and Islam can stand between young persons when they are deep love. Don't get me wrong. Hindu system is worse--not only the religion, even caste may act as the villain. There are also non-religious factors that may be an obstacle in case of marriage. My point is if it is possible to make a religion more humanistic. After all religions are for human beings and not the vice-versa---as a humanist that's what I believe.

In Jasimuddin's "Sojan Badiyar Ghat" a Muslim boy named Sojan and a Hindu girl Duli are in love with each other. They elope and marry secretly. They are religious. They respect each other's religion. For example, Sojan buys and brings vermilion and conch bangles for Duli and Duli draws Kaaba on a piece of cloth to decorate the room. Can't we say that humanist Jasimuddin has elevated religion at a higher level?


From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com taken Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2012 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Fwd: Can a Non muslim marry a muslim girl; Question...
 
I thought in Islam there is no compulsion on one's religious belief.


>>>>>>>>> Zakir Naik is not running for political office. It is true there is NO compulsion in religion. At the same time, religions have their own sets of rules. Islam or Dr. Naik did not say, these kids cannot get married but he said, it would NOT be accepted by Islam. Specifically, Islam allows limited inter-faith marriage between Muslims, Jews and Christians. But as an monotheistic religion, it differs with groups who add "Partners" to God.

If an Indian girl want to marry a Bangladeshi man, they have to go through some formality. If an African man want to marry a Chinese girl, they have to make some compromises (Where to live and how to raise the family, what values etc). Similarly Islam supports monotheistic ideology (Core of our faith) and those who want to remain Muslim have to agree to the concept. I know quite a few people who married Hindu partners but they are not religious. As far as I know they are living their lives nicely.

So Zakir Nail or Islam did not stop them from getting married but Islam does have some rules we have to follow. For example, just because I love India or Pakistan, I cannot walk into those countries without required papers. If someone want to practice Islam, they have to follow some rules of Islam.

Hope this will help you to understand the topic.

Shalom!


-----Original Message-----From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Mon, Aug 6, 2012 4:16 amSubject: [mukto-mona] Re: Fwd: Can a Non muslim marry a muslim girl; Question...
 
 
I thought in Islam there is no compulsion on one's religious belief. Now I see from Zakir Naik's khutba that Islam can stand between two young persons--one Muslim and the other one Hindu--when they are in deep love with each other. Is Zakir Naik a true Islamic scholar? If Mr. Naik is right, then love has to be conditional. That is pretty pathetic. Sent from my iPhone
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