| QR: "Do you feel the a state authority is equipped to unbiasedly decide which conversions are predatory and which are not? Had a Muslim country "borrowed" this Hindu practice, would you still support it?" What are you talking about? Have you heard mass conversion of Muslims into other religions in a Muslim country? I bet never. Do you know why? Muslim countries execute the outmost safeguard to protect Islam. The fact is - it is hard for other religions to survive in a Muslim country, let alone predatory conversion practices. QR: "I don't think Muslims are in a position to perform "Predatory conversion" in the western world or even in India." You are wrong. This is why. A large number of conversions in the US are occurring inside the US prison system. Prison is a fertile ground for conversion. The reason is - inmates resent US authority for the incarceration, and they are emotionally charged. Priests/Preachers take advantage of this emotional state of the inmates. This is called a predatory practice. US authority is aware of it - but they are unable to do anything about it because of freedom of religion. Now, let's talk about India. In there, both Christian and Muslim preachers are competing for recruiting their potential candidates for conversion. I may have mentioned this story before, but - new comers may not have heard it. Let me repeat. This one involves predatory practice of Christianity. In the north Easter part of India (the so called seven sisters), Christian missionaries have built many Churches and Charitable Hospitals side by side. When a poor patient goes there - the doctor gives them free medicine. Patient goes home, and uses medicine regularly, but nothing happens. Then, comes a priest, takes him to the Church, and prays for the patient. After the prayer, priest accompanies the patient to the doctor again. Doctor gives medication again. Patient gets better this time in a day or two. Is it the prayer or the medication that healed the patient, patient wonder? Guess what patient believes that the power of the prayer, not the medication, healed him/her. Patient puts his/her faith in Christianity. The trick is - the first medication that was given to the patient was fake, and the second one was the real one. Those innocent destitute people had no clue. After long investigation this trick has been exposed. It is not so secrete that most of those neo-converts are destitute people, including the story we have been discussing here. I clearly see what happened in this case also. If you cannot see the picture, nothing can open your eyes. This is my last contribution to this thread. Jiten Roy
--- On Sat, 9/1/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 9:41 AM
With due respect, I feel you started commenting on posts WITHOUT even reading the article. I never did bring up "Under age" or "Bangladesh" as any issue. You took it up on yourself and stated going with it.
I see that you have a very high expectation of Hindus, but - not from your own co-religionists.
>>>>>>>>> Again one more assumption. I don't think I demanded anything extra from people of either faiths. However during our many discussions, our atheists friends felt "Secularism" is the answer for many social problems we have. Therefore, I simply pointed out that, a mature democracy and "Secular" India is still falling short in many ways. It NOT only failed Muslims, it also failed people from many faiths (And caste) back grounds.
Therefore, I will not be surprised if Hindus reconvert her back to Hinduism. After all, how else can you play the game against an opposition party which does not follow the same rules? Rules have to be uniform between the parties. Isn't it?
>>>>>>>>>> Not need to get personal here. I am not playing games here but only pointing out hypocrisies and false expectations. Honestly I don't care who is leaving Islam. As long the "CHOICE" of picking a religion is out there, I am happy. Picking a religion is a very personal issue and people should not be persecuted for picking a religion of their choice. It is a human rights issue.
As the article point out, often new Muslims face a lot of pressure and it is not abnormal. However the length these nasty people went to prevent these ladies is "Ugly". It was not the family who persecuted the ladies but Hindu neighbors who beat them up. That is savagery and it was painful to watch certain members (Highly educated) are attempting to sugar coat it!!
Had it been Pakistan or Afghanistan, I am sure the same set of people would not wait to blame "Islam" for it.
Do understand, I don't attack religion. Simply said what is abundantly clear to all of us.
The most liberal religious ideology of Hinduism made Hindus vulnerable to the predatory conversion practices of the organized religions.
>>>>>>>>>>> Well who is forcing western people to revert to Islam? I don't think Muslims are in a position to perform "Predatory conversion" in the western world or even in India. So I disagree with this "Opinion".
I guess - Hindus have realized it recently, and introduced the reconversion process to partially counter the predatory religious practices.
>>>>>>>> Do you feel the a state authority is equipped to unbiasedly decide which conversions are predatory and which are not? Had a Muslim country "borrowed" this Hindu practice, would you still support it?
In my view, humanity is engaged in a deadly religious game, without any tangible benefit.
>>>>>>>>> Our collective history taught us, no one plays "games" without benefits.
Yes, I agree religions have been used/abused for games but it was never driven by religion BUT for human greed for power and money.
Shalom!
-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, Sep 1, 2012 6:21 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam | My fatwa is still valid, which is - no underage girl should be allowed to make decision about religious conversion. This is not the case here since she is 25 years old. I see that you have a very high expectation of Hindus, but - not from your own co-religionists. You said before that - you expect Muslims to do such things, but not Hindus, especially from India. Well, you may have to be disappointed again and again. Most recent trend in India is reconversion to Hinduism. Therefore, I will not be surprised if Hindus reconvert her back to Hinduism. After all, how else can you play the game against an opposition party which does not follow the same rules? Rules have to be uniform between the parties. Isn't it? The main goal of an organized religion is religious hegemony through expansionism. The most liberal religious ideology of Hinduism made Hindus vulnerable to the predatory conversion practices of the organized religions. I guess - Hindus have realized it recently, and introduced the reconversion process to partially counter the predatory religious practices. In my view, humanity is engaged in a deadly religious game, without any tangible benefit. Jiten Roy
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 3:00 PM
Vinita Shaw, 25, a resident of 57/2B Bondel Road, adopted Islam in December last year. Her new name, vide an affidavit by a first class magistrate is, Taiba Khatoon (The Indian Express possesses a copy of the affidavit)
>>>>>> The article is right below our conversations. You can read it and verify yourself. ... :-)
Again the issue is NOT her age only. It is the neighbors were beating the whole family for reverting to Islam. READ the article before you share your "Fatwa" on it...
Shalom!
-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy < jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona < mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, Sep 1, 2012 12:01 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam | There you go again - you won't tell me the age of this lady. I think she is an underage girl. Am I Right? I have seen many Hindus denounced Hinduism publicly in Bangladesh and following Islam freely, but I have yet to see an apostate Muslim in Bangladesh, who has denounced Islam publicly and following Hinduism freely. Can you show me one? That could be a case to match with this present story. You understand what I am talking about. Please don't bother to show me a Muslim-girl married to a Hindu-guy and following no religion at all or both religions. That's not what we are talking about here. Jiten Roy
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 12:03 PM
The conversion apparently did not go down too well with their neighbours,.........who, on June 8, beat up the two sisters and their family, including her mother and brother, with bricks and rods...............................they said unmentionable things as I have converted," said Vinita. She also alleged that both sisters were abused and molested.
>>>>>>>>>> I think you still missed the point. I have copied from the article to make it easy for all readers. We were not talking about family only. We are talking "neighbours"
Also do note, it seems you are trying to put blame back on Islam without even reading the article you are commenting on. HERE the neighbors were upset with someone reverting to Islam and beat the crap out of the WHOLE FAMILY... We hear a lot about killing apostate in the western media but I am yet to hear anyone in Bangladesh were killed over it. In fact there are quite a few public figures who also had interfaith marriages but they get along fine with mainstream population. If someone does not follow Islam, it really does not matter if Islam approves it or not. I see a comical effort to divert the topic into something else or comparing to Bangladesh etc. Kindly read the article then comment on it. If highly educated people like members here cannot even understand a simple article, why do you expect millions of half educated Muslims will get it right every time. Which is unrealistic expectation to begin with!! If you want the world to change for better, you have to start with yourself. If you care for fairness from others, you ought to start from from your neighborhood and hopefully people will follow your lead. Expectation from others devoid of actions never delivers. Shalom!! -----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy < jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona < mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 9:07 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam | You said they have beaten this Lady. How old is this Lady? I missed it. My comment was about underage girls, not Ladies. If she is a grownup Lady, my comment is not applicable to her, as she may have made a conscious decision. If her relatives have punished her for doing so, they are wrong, and they should be held liable for the punishment. I understood your point clearly. You tried to equate this punishment with the punishment of an apostate, sanctioned by Islam. Are you sure this punishment rises to the same level as reserved for an apostate, and should deserve the similar criticism? Jiten Roy
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 31, 2012, 9:36 AM
where elders rebuke or punish youngsters for wrongdoings. Not a constitutional or secular issue.
>>>>>>>>>> So freedom of religion is not important? As per Indian constitution, ALL Indians are free to pick religion of their choice and practice it freely. How the heck it becomes a family issue when NEIGHBORS of the covert decided to beat this lady?
This is amusing stuff....
Shalom!!
-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy < jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona < mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 6:08 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam This case is simple, just like any other issue where elders rebuke or punish youngsters for wrongdoings. Not a constitutional or secular issue. However, honor-killing issue could be under the jurisdiction of the constitution. That was my point.
Jiten Roy
--- On Thu, 8/30/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 10:56 AM
Mr. Q. Rahman is blaming the secular constitution of India for not protecting the girl, who was punished ('beaten') by her relatives for converting to Islam.
>>>>>>>>> it seems member Roy missed the point made in my last post. I am not interested to insult anyone in this forum or "Indian constitution".
For many months in this forum I was "Told" by many members religion/Islam is the cause for many social ills. I have consistently said, religion does not approve mistreating women in any share or form. I do not think the founding fathers of India even "Approved" of making lives of Indian women miserable either. However good laws needs strong institutions of apply those laws on people who violate those laws.
Here (IN Muktomona) people tend to focus on people who violate religious laws and attempt to make a case against religion. However the SAME sets of members will bring who different argument when I make the same case against a secular country like India. Then it becomes a "Family problem" not religion or secularism.
Which shows most of our "Mukto-monas" are NOT able to get away from their per-conceived notions about issues we discuss.
There are thousands of incidents like this in Bangladesh
>>>>>>>>> I am sure there is. When we discuss those issues, many members will not shy away from blaming "Islam" or "Jihadi" Muslims for it.
The irony is we get furious when we see double standards. Most of us don't realize that, when we make comments based on emotion (Instead of facts on ground!) we do the same!!
Just to "Counter" my comment on "India", we see comments on "Honor killing" (Which has NO relations to Islam, rather a part of many cultures across the globe), Bangladesh and to top it off' " I see nothing unusual here" and "their anger is quite justifiable in this case".
It does not matter if the injustice taking place in India, Bangladesh, Myanmar or Palestine. Those of us who have some level of education should have the backbone to call it what it is. If it is a wrong thing, we need to unitedly say, it is WRONG!!
If some of us silently or vocally support wrongdoing to other people, it is hard to stand up against oppression. That is why it is so hard for us to remove oppression in our own country. We should not tolerate intolerance.
Lastly, according to the report, it was the neighbors who did not approve of the conversion.
My two cents.....
Shalom!
-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy < jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona < mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 5:45 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam | Mr. Q. Rahman is blaming the secular constitution of India for not protecting the girl, who was punished ('beaten') by her relatives for converting to Islam. Mr. Chakraborty, on the other hand, first supported the Indian secular constitution, and then undermined it. None of these comments make any sense to me. I am not sure why they are trying to connect secularism and constitution with this story, except to undermine them. As I see - this is a family issue, and the family, obviously, could not approve girl's action, and they were angry, which resulted into such a punishment. I see nothing unusual here. Do you?
Let me remind Mr. Rahman and others that - this is not the so called 'honor-killing' issue of the Hindu society. If it were, I could join hands with Mr. Rahman and others. There are thousands of incidents like this in Bangladesh. I am sure, Mr. Chakraborty and Mr. Rahman are aware of many of them. Often I hear stories like – adolescent schoolgirls abducted and converted to Islam. Most cases - these girls are lost forever from their families and friends. So, their anger is quite justifiable in this case. There is no happy ending in any of these families. I could care less if someone made a conscious decision about his/her religion. Unfortunately, that's not the case; most of these girls are very young, and unable to make conscious judgment at that age. Many of them admitted, in the later part of their lives, that it was a wrong decision in the first place. But, what good that could bring in their lives - nothing? The only way this process can be fair - if it is open-ended, and uniformly supported by all religious communities. Can this happen with the honor-killing system in the society? I doubt. Jiten Roy
--- On Tue, 8/28/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] - India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 9:04 PM
People are not the state. Indian state has a secular constitution that does not endorse such killings, but a state with strict Shariah law will probably will commit such killings officially. Ambedkar, a great scholar and one of the chief architects of the Indian constitution, led a mass conversion of 50,000 dalits to Buddhism. It might not have been possible in any other country. It does not mean that leaders of the secular parties are all free from evils. The then secular leaders showed total passivity during (or maybe even indirectly supported) the demolition of the Babri mosque. Many a time (I still remember Meerat riot) state police have participated in communal riots to kill Muslims.
Maybe, you should check out what Muslims do to their own brothers and sisters when they abandon their religion? They get killed or stoned! Get off your high horse, bro! -SD
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
Thanks God for Indian press. The real situation of "Secular India" where people are NOT free to pick a religion of their choice.
Shalom!
India: Sisters Beaten for Converting to Islam ![Vinita Shaw and her sister both say they were beaten by neighbors for converting from Hinduism to Islam, and here I was thinking that it was only Muslims who had issues with those of their (former) co-religionists who leave the faith!]( "Vinita_Shaw_Kolkata_India") Vinita Shaw and her sister both say they were beaten by neighbors for converting from Hinduism to Islam, and here I was thinking that it was only Muslims who had issues with those of their (former) co-religionists who leave the faith! What if they were Muslim?: by Arshad Ali (Indian Express) A south Kolkata girl, who has converted from Hinduism to Islam, and her sister who is also keen to convert, were beaten up allegedly by the associates of the local councillor. The girls have also alleged police inaction. Vinita Shaw, 25, a resident of 57/2B Bondel Road, adopted Islam in December last year. Her new name, vide an affidavit by a first class magistrate is, Taiba Khatoon (The Indian Express possesses a copy of the affidavit). Her sister, 18-year-old Pooja Shaw, too, expressed her wish to follow suit last week. The conversion apparently did not go down too well with their neighbours, who, on June 8, beat up the two sisters and their family, including her mother and brother, with bricks and rods. "We are a very poor family. My father is paralytic and bed-ridden. These people started a fight on the pretext that we dirty the place too much. But when they started beating us, they said unmentionable things as I have converted," said Vinita. She also alleged that both sisters were abused and molested. Vinita also claimed harassment at the hands of the police."I went to the police station with a written complaint against Asim Bera, Tapas Bera, Abhishek Malakar, Krishna Ray, Akash Ray, Manoj Singh, Bikas Singh and Birju Paswan but investigating officer D D Roy Chowdhury tore it up and wrote it himself. He even refused to give me a copy of the complaint and when I insisted, he asked the other officer there to give it to me, referring to me with unmentionable names," she said.
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