The good thing is that any given history is written by different historians with different minds and ideologies. How do you force them to sing a single tune? That is possible (temporary) only in totalitarian countries like China and North Koreas. Composing a book with some idiosyncratic ideas does not mean we have to take that idea as a fact. It is an interesting idea but time straightens out the truth from any such consensus soon or later.
-SD
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>; "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: Who spawned communalism in India?
-SD
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>; "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: Who spawned communalism in India?
I brought Ahmadinejad as an extreme example to show that there are people who do not believe in holocaust in the same way as many people do not believe in the so called Divide and Rule Policy that the British colonial masters used to consolidate power in India. I am not talking about Chomsky the person. I am talking about his well known book Manufacturing Consent. Without going into the personal details of the author, we should do value judgement of his works. I do not think Katzu did lecture for clap. He lectured on what he believed and in what direction India should move. He believes in the utility of communal harmony in development and building a prosperous India. Hindu communalism and Muslim communalism feed each other. This divisive tendency is making India internally weaker. In view of this the said lecture was relevant although many will see this as Muslim appeasement.
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I am not sure what historical data are you refereeing to? My point was we, people of the subcontinent were fully capable of being nasty and mean to each other before English landed. I do not believe that we lost our innocence when English came and planted the first seed of communalism. People like Katzu can carry on lecturing but he knows it is all BS for the little show and claps. It is high time to straighten our backbones and take responsibility. Proud and strong people do not blame others!
Why bring Ahmadinejad and Chomskey in the discussion when we know they too are typical whiners. Ahmadinejad have been cursing Americans and Jews for all his Iranian ills when that clown and his cohorts have totally failed Iranian citizens with all its oil wealth and brain power. Chomsky hates everything that is American and yet, he loves the American freedom and comfort. Radical Islamists have finally found their MIT intellectual!
-SD"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: Who spawned communalism in India?
Deeldar SahebI like your first para.With respect to your second para let me say the following:Faith does not work only in case of religion or God or gods. When we don't want to look at data critically or follow discourses with an open and analytical mind, some one's belief seems to be a crap. There are people who do not believe in Goebblism. The President of Iran does not believe that there was ever some thing called holocaust. Many people do not agree with Noam Chomsky that consent can be manufactured by the media. We and our kids are perpetually being persuaded to buy stuff that we may not need and yet blame ourselves for doing so as not having self control. It is a "political faith" (please note the inverted commas) of the Iranian President that holocaust on the Jews never existed. Frankly speaking my knowledge is limited. That is why I said, "I believe.. ." My belief is probably based on my selective reading and hearing. So mine is probably a "half faith". Yours one may be a "full faith".Please do not lose sight of the main context when you talk about communalism as has been referred to by Katzu. It is about a new mindset that both the Hindus and Muslims of the subcontinent have acquired and is being continually nurtured (ref. Das) by various vested interest groups. We are not talking about the Muslim or Hindu rulers here. Sepoy Mutity 1857 (The Great Revolt as has been called by Satyen Sen and others) was a joint venture of the Muslims and the Hindus. That was a dangerous signal for the "to be rulers" of India. Why then should I not believe in the theory of Divide and Rule Policy as has been propounded by many observers?From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>; "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: Who spawned communalism in India?
Needless to say that the tribalism is in our genes. No population has escaped from this embedded human trait, no matter how civilized they have become with many artificial mental exercises. This interesting trait plays two antagonist roles. It unites initially and when enough differences are generated within a homogeneous population, it forces people to split and spread for resource and survival. We can go back to few thousands years of human history and we will never find a harmonious and peaceful time for us, humans. Never! It basically boils down to fight the intruders, flee from them or submit to their will. Any idiot would know that communalism did exist prior to 1857. Brits did not introduce it to our innocent Indian angels. The djin was not even bottled before English came. It was there but the idiots have become far more detached and nostalgic for an era that they never experienced themselves. It must have been a harmonious period because Hindus/Muslims fought against the Brits? Total crap! It is basically an utter stupidity for many feeble minded people, who love to feel good about themselves than taking responsibilities for their own shortcomings and actions. English were opportunists but they saved Indian subcontinent from a true disaster that needs no mentioning. They were blessings in disguise! -SD"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBSFrom: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: Who spawned communalism in India?
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: Who spawned communalism in India?
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, December 22, 2012, 12:08 PM
1. Let us assume that Das has quoted Vivekananda correctly and do some math. 600 million Hindus in 1200 (ref. Firestha by Das) and 200 million in 1700 (ref. Das). That means even with zero growth rate, India has lost 400 million Hindus in 500 years! After taking into account human loss due to epidemics, natural calamities, famines, wars, murders, exportation as slaves (as suggested by Das), etc., a low 1% growth may not be unrealistic. Assuming 1% growth, 600 million would have reached about 87000 million or 8700 crore whereas current total population in the subcontinent is about 160 crore. Even with a half percent growth rate, population in 1700 should have been 726 crore. Obviously percentage of Muslim population in India has grown to about 30-35% since the Muslims started settling in India. We need to have some number sense let alone common sense and judgment before we thrust numbers in the discussion group. Then only we should talk about the various factors that caused such a Muslim population growth of from 0% to 35% over the last say 1500 years.2. Bloody clashes between tribes, clans, different lingual groups, sects, and religions were definitely not absent. We see this kind of clash even now. Katzu talked about communalism which was almost absent in 1857. He asserts that about 80% of both Hindus and Muslims are now communal. Here we are talking about communal clashes (or communal killings by the majority instigated by the rulers, if not by the rulers directly) which is the worst form of communalism. I personally believe (based on my limited study) that this communalism was partially and consciously created by the British using the Divide and Rule Policy to make a political divide in the subcontinent. Not only British, any ruler does that and we common people swallow that poison pill. The evidence is a divided India.From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2012 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: Who spawned communalism in India?On the contrary, there were communal clashes wherever and whenever possible among the believers of different religions and subgroups of the same religion. British did not have to spawn them. The new converts might retain remnants of the old faith, conversion alone does not explain the remarkable decrease in the non Muslim population of India, mass slaughter and deportation as slaves abroad can. Remember, over a period of roughly five hundred years, the number decreased by four hundred millions.On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Jiten Roy <
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