Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity

Jagadish

 Bose wrote an article in 1894 blending science with mythology. In his childhood he asked the Ganges, "River, where are you coming from?" He heard the voice of the Ganges, "From the jataa (interwoven hair) of Mahadev." At the age of 36, he asked the same question and he still heard the same distinct voice of the river Ganges, "Mahadever jataa hoite." There is no reason to believe that his scientific mind really heard the voice. Kalidas believed that it was the goddess Saraswati who made him write all the beautiful verses. The other day we read an article on the Indian mathematician Ramanujan who believed that all the theorems were revealed to him in dream from a god or goddess. Newton was a religious man. But his scientific works were not based on any faith. This is true for Jagadish Bose, Ramanujan, and all other scientists and mathematicians and even this is true for all the prophets or sages to whom knowledge was revealed. All the creations by humans were the result of sweat shed by them. There was nothing divine about them. Newton had to invent a telescope, for example, to study the nature of light.     

On Jan 1, 2013, at 8:11 PM, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:

 

One example of how faith influences science is the spectrum of sunlight as described by Sir Isaac Newton.  Nobody with common sense would find a difference between Blue and Indigo, but Newton did.  I suppose, he was deeply influenced by his heretic faith of Christian faith called Arian heresy.  He believed in the existence of seven heavens in which seven archangels sang religious songs, and probably as the light emitted by them reached the surface of earth, it became white(or colorless).  Religion is primitive science based mainly on cosmology and herbal therapy.  Mesopotamian civilization, in spite of being an advanced one compared to that of the Egyptians, did not need an afterlife and God(s) who would behave like a tyrant king, but the Egyptians needed such a creation of the priest king named Menes.

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:59 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:

 

I believe you misread my comments. What I said is - how scientific assumptions can cross over to faith. Let me give you an example, some scientists believe in the man-made global warming theory, and when data did not support their belief, they manipulated data to stick to their belief. That's how science crosses over to faith. Now, what is eternity? It's a big unknown, isn't it? Anytime you face an unknown, you are apprehensive about it, that's what I call a fear of the unknown. As you board a plane, you are apprehensive about what's lying ahead. This is a natural psychological response. Eternity is one such unknown. It is quite natural to wonder about the eternity. As we approach it - we get apprehensive about it. It's a fact. Isn't it? What's unscientific about the fear of eternity? I don't get it. Why are you thinking about punishment or reward? I am not talking about it?  I am talking about psychological response to the eternity, which is natural, if not scientific. Isn't it? I think - you are trying to establish something that you already believe in, which I call faith-based discussion. Under this situation, you will not conceive alternative argument. Jiten Roy --- On Mon, 12/31/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Questions of God and Eternity To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, December 31, 2012, 7:54 AM   It may not be proper to use faith in the context of science. Science uses assumption, axiom, postulate, and hypothesis. But all of these are not wild guesses or imaginations. It is true that no formal proofs are offered, but they can be obvious and theories bases on these can have prediction capabilities. It follows the so called scientific method.  Eternity of human life can be a philosophical proposition not a scientific one. So if you say that you have fear of eternity, then you are saying this on the basis of faith. Fear, right path, etc. cannot be scientific constructs, they can well fit into a religion--Godless or without God. Right path is a relative term and can be an important topic in ethics and moral philosophy.  You have decided on your right path and as a matter of fact we all do. These are obviously important for an individual and the society he belongs to, but this is beyond the jurisdiction of science.  Sent from my iPhone On Dec 30, 2012, at 6:15 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:   Assumption becomes faith when it is considered as truth, without any evidence. Scientists often assume (hypothesize) something, then investigate about its validity or truth. If they fail to validate, and yet believe in it, that becomes a faith.   There is another kind of assumption, in which a model is assumed which helps explain some unknown phenomena. If someone thinks that the model is the truth, and asks others to accept it - it becomes his faith. God and eternity are such phenomenological models to explain some unknowns. A scientist can assume these concepts if they help him understand those unknowns. Models can be physical structures or mathematical expressions. Therefore, if models have physical structures, they can be understood in a physical sense, as the concept of Gods and Goddesses in idols.   Fear of eternity/unknown is always with us. Such fears keep us in line. Some people can easily overcome fear of eternity or unknown, and can do certain things that most others can't imagine.   Jiten Roy   --- On Sun, 12/30/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sunday, December 30, 2012, 9:13 AM   Fear of Unknown eternity? My humble question: Can a scientist believe in eternity in the physical sense? What is this fear about? Is it about any punishment that you may have to face? If this is so, then what are the remedies? Good works? Don't all these boil down to a concept of faith?  Sent from my iPhone On Dec 28, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:   I don't know if my belief in God is circumstantial or what; it could be due to the fear of unknown eternity also. But, one thing I know for sure – I have no fear of God, if you are asking about that. I try to do everything right; that's all. Some people believe in almighty God, yet always claim to be victims of aggression from others.    Anyway, I don't dwell on the existence of God or its form, because I find the concept as a very powerful psychological sanctuary. The existence of God is less important when it's a conceptual entity. So, I leave it alone, and do not feel the need to abandon the idea of God. Instead, I feel strongly that - we should abandon the concept of religion altogether, which is nothing but exploitation of the image of God to serve the petty interests of religion-peddlers on this earth.     It's also not about which scientist believes in what; they are as clueless about God as any one of us. It's really a matter of personal choice. Many people do not need the concept of God, that's fine - as long as they do the right things.  Jiten Roy --- On Fri, 12/28/12, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Date: Friday, December 28, 2012, 11:06 AM   Thanks. Virtually I don't see any difference between your "prayer" and a non-believer's "wish" for some thing. Fear factor probably is absent in your belief, I suppose. You would know better.  Any way, recently Higgs (predictor of the so called God particle/Goddam particle or technically called Higgs-Boson), despite he himself being a non-believer has called Richard Dawkins a fundamentalist. Dawkins himself has said that an evangelical and he himself can be matched, but the former would not revise his belief in theological theories in creationism while he will do so with the new scientific and experimental evidences.  The other day we saw the results of a survey according to which many great scientists have admitted to be believers. It is hard if not impossible to overcome the belief that has been in our psyche for centuries. Are yourself not a victim of this?  Interestingly the Nobel Laureate physicist who coined the term "God particle" preferred the name "Goddam particle" but the latter was not acceptable to the publisher of the book he wrote.  Sent from my iPhone On Dec 26, 2012, at 6:22 PM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:   " How do you use your God? Meditate on  Him? If yes, how? Any rituals? And why do you need it any way? Do you pray? And if yes, what are your prayers? I mean what do you pray for?" I use God whenever I need it for psychological support. I do not pray without specific need, and there is no special language or verse for prayer.  Someone was about to die of lung cancer. When the news spread, people arranged a mass-prayer session in the a temple. They asked me to join the prayer, and I did. About 200 people gathered in the temple. Everybody was praying for his recovery from this dreadful disease. I was hoping that at least someone in the crowd will be able to draw the attention of God through his/h