I lived in Saudi Arabia for 18 years and I know of 2 instances where Christians were 'caught' holding a service in their house and the 3 families were deported within 24 hours and the second case where a house was raided and they had a 'chapel' in one of the bedrooms and the family was imprisoned and then deported. They had worked in KSA for 24 years and they were not given their termination bonus because they were deported. I am no scholar of Islam but I cannot believe that this treatment is sanctioned in Islam. Yes ritualistic Islam is everywhere in KSA but not Islam the deen the way of life. I am sure some of you have worked there and know how the Saudis treat their servants and labourers. Shahid From: akhtar husain <akhtar46_1999@ yahoo.com> *KSA= Kingdom of Saudi Arabia <<...The criticism of Saudi Arabia is unfair. According to hadeeth of our beloved PROPHET. NO OTHER RELIGION SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE PRACTISED IN THE ARABIAN PENINSULA. There is no such thing as wahabbism. IN KSA* there is great emphasis on avoiding shirk and bidaat which is widespread all over the Islamic countries. KSA has its own faults but we must appreciate their good things as well...>> -akhtar husain From: omarali502000@yahoo.com --- On Wed, 12/2/09, Ghulam F Dogar <gdogar@yahoo.com> wrote: Further to it Omare From: omar ali <omarali502000@yahoo.com> Devender, Omar, I would like to ask Mr. Akhtar Hussain if he can quote a reference for the Hadees about allowing no other religion to be practiced in Arabian Penninsula. What happened to sura in Quran saying no compulsion in religion? Is there a Hadees banning all other religions beyond Arabian Penninsula also or may be the whole world? Does Mr. Akhtar Hussein know that there are still Christians in the Arabian Penninsula and there were Jews in Jeddah till the last century? Davender Bhardwaj The criticism of Saudi Arabia is unfair. According to hadeeth of our beloved PROPHET. NO OTHER RELIGION SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE PRACTISED IN THE ARABIAN PENINSULA. There is no such thing as wahabbism. IN KSA there is great emphasis on avoiding shirk and bidaat which is widespread all over the Islamic countries. KSA has its own faults but we must appreciate their good things as well. This ban runs counter to all traditions of liberal democracy and must be overturned. Of course, the hypocritical protests from places like Saudi Arabia (no religious symbols of ANY religion other than the wahabi sect are allowed) and Lashkar e Tayaba (they actually had the gall to say "this is a blow against inter-faith harmony" [O' Really? Ha! Ha! Ha!Look, who's talking!], I kid you not) is not going to help matters. But we should apply diplomatic, economic and moral pressure on the Swiss and on Europeans in general, based on principles of freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of association. Comparison with the Danish cartoon case is misplaced because in that case the Danish were actually on the side of freedom of expression. Omar November 30, 2009 That movement should be sharply distinguished from the secularist and liberal defence of the principles of a pluralist society. Geert Wilders, the Dutch politician who recently overturned a Home Office decision to ban him from Britain, says that the Koran is a "fascist book" and calls for it to be banned. His message consists largely of extravagant predictions of the "Islamification" of Europe. The Danish People's Party depicts Muslim migration to Europe as a threat to Denmark's Christian identity. Writers such as the Canadian conservative Mark Steyn talk of a European "demographic time bomb" of Muslim immigration and high birthrates. This is nonsense. Muslims are a small minority in Western Europe and their median fertility rate is declining. The secularist position seeks to remove religion from government, not to drive it out of civil society. The ramifications of the Swiss vote will evoke comparisons with the diplomatic isolation of Denmark after the newspaper Jyllands-Posten published 12 cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad in 2005. There is no genuine analogy at all. The Danish Government valiantly upheld freedom of expression against attempts to stifle it. The Swiss electorate has, by contrast, struck a blow against freedom of association and conscience. It should be speedily overturned. Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!
To: Kirfani@aol.com
Sent: 12/4/2009 8:49:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
Subj: Re: Fwd: Fw: Re: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
Mr Akhtar may not be aware of some of the most prominent cases of the kind that I have mentioned - the Indian and international media went to town with the Ameena case in particular, but little happened afterwards. Details can be found here in a book on violence against women which deals with the Ameena episode in Chapter 3: http://books.google.com/books?id=cm4PBNdaFjYC&pg=PA45&lpg=PA45&dq=ameena+case&source=bl&ots=4HWuSqzI_v&sig=A32HFgdCSuDD-hzKs_JB1R5YDHA&hl=en&ei=Bq8ZS9rsMIPGMNLr2e8C&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CCgQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=ameena%20case&f=false
A decade after that incident, another prominent case took place with a girl called Haseena and that case is spoken about in this article: http://www.hvk.org/articles/0504/129.html
Yes, the girls' parents are responsible for this treatment, no doubt, but I do think that this is a major societal evil overall that does not do the Saudis any favors. Thailand used to be a poor country that many Western pedophiles went to in order to practice their perversions. About fifteen years ago, first Canada started prosecuting its own citiens for doing this and after that, most Western nations followed the Canadian example. I am unaware of a single Saudi who has been punished for what is definitely a crime by his government.That Mr Akhtar's Hyderabadi friends have not been involved in this obnoxious practice simply suggests that they are decent people and these are everywhere. On the other hand, a society like the Saudi society that sanctions this kind of legal misbehavior against girls by its men can certainly be seen as one that is not just flawed but is also reprehensible because it allows this kind of evil to exist.
Best wishes,
Mehul Kamdar
From: "Kirfani@aol.com" <Kirfani@aol.com>
To: Kirfani@aol.com
Sent: Fri, 4 December, 2009 15:56:23
Subject: Fwd: Fw: Re: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
To: Kirfani@aol.com
Sent: 12/4/2009 4:37:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
Subj: Re: Fwd: Fw: Re: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, Kirfani@aol.com <Kirfani@aol.com> wrote:
From: Kirfani@aol.com <Kirfani@aol.com>
Subject: Fwd: Fw: Re: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
To: Kirfani@aol.com
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 4:51 PM
To: Kirfani@aol.com
Sent: 12/3/2009 10:46:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
Subj: Re: Fwd: Fw: Re: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
While I do not know the entire debate that has taken place here, I often find it interesting that Muslims from South Asia who, put together, perhaps outnumber all of the Muslims in the rest of the world, always find something to admire in the brutal and repressive regime that rules over Saudi Arabia. Leave aside the severe discrimination that the Saudis practice against other faiths (unless, of course, those practising other faiths happen to be Americans, Britons, French or similar - the Saudis even used French commandos to take back the holiest mosque at Mecca from insurgents barely thirty five or so years ago) Muslims from the South Asian region have never been treated well in that country. In Hyderabad in India, the practice of old Saudi men coming in and marrying young and poor Indian girls for a couple of weeks before they divorced them and left giving the families money, has been a major problem for decades inspite of some prominent cases where the Indian government arrested the Saudi men and their Indian marriage-brokers in the past. I am sure that similar practices exist among the poor in Bangladesh as well. Countries in the West, often derided as immoral by the Saudis and their admirers in other parts of the world, prosecute pedophiles from their own countries who go out and misbehave with children elsewhere. I am not aware of a single Saudi Arabian attempt at trying to curb the kind of behavior that takes place in places like Hyderabad and to a lesser extent in cities like Mumbai in India.
Some time ago, on a Bangladeshi discussion group, I challenged a senior Bangladeshi bureaucrat who is a known extreme supporter of Saudi Arabia with some facts pertaining to his own association with that country. Some years ago, this gentleman scuttled a proposal by Bangladesh to build a second refinery and petrochemical complex at Chalna with financing from a US and Indian consotrium including India's Tata group because he managed to persuade the Bangladeshi government that he would be able to get the Saudis to invest the money "interest free" instead. Leave aside the fact that there was no "interest" involved in what was an industrial project and not a loan being given to the Bangladeshi government, the sad fact is that when this gentleman went to Saudi Arabia, he was not even allowed to meet anyone of significance in that country and he had to return to his country empty handed. The Saudis know - as does the rest of the world - that Bangladesh has huge natural gas reserves. They have not bothered to invest a cent in helping an overwhelmingly Muslim nation one bit in developing these, confining their "investments" if one may call them that to funding extreme groups that mimic their own narrow-minded thinking instead. I doubt that the situation is any different in other parts of the world where Saudi money finds its way.
I might be criticized as a non-Muslim and a non-believer for this opinion by some, but, frankly, I do think that there is a case to be made that a great religion like Islam has been hijacked by extremists like the Saudis leaving the overwhelming majority of Muslims with a bad reputation among other communities by unfair association.
Best wishes,
Mehul Kamdar
From: "Kirfani@aol.com" <Kirfani@aol.com>
To: omarali502000@yahoo.com; akhtar46_1999@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu, 3 December, 2009 18:47:01
Subject: Fwd: Fw: Re: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
To: asiapeace@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/3/2009 1:59:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
Subj: Fw: Re: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
--- On Wed, 12/2/09, Shahid Husain <Husainfive@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Shahid Husain <Husainfive@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Fw: Re: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
To: omarali502000@yahoo.com
Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
To: "omar ali" <omarali502000@ yahoo.com
Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:09 AM
To: asiapeace@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/2/2009 3:42:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time
Subj: Fw: Re: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
From: Ghulam F Dogar <gdogar@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
To: "omar ali" <omarali502000@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 2:15 PM
Imam Bukhari, says, there were more than 100, 000 hadiths in circulation and he only selected ten thousands........ (whatever criterion he used) so by his own standards if a pool has more than 90 percent unreliable traditions ..... it is hardly a reliable pool anyway.
Secondly it is about "HAJJAZ" not Arab Peninsula in which non Muslims are not allowed .......
If all countries implement Akhtar Hussain's formula and Canada declares itself Christian country ...... I suppose we should pack our bags and head somewhere else!!!!!
gd
To: asiapeace <asiapeace@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: akhtar46_1999@yahoo.com
Sent: Wed, December 2, 2009 2:18:53 PM
Subject: Fw: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
There are thousands of hadiths and I am sure Mr. Hussain can find one that says something vaguely in line with his claim. In fact, i remember reading a hadith that "two religions cannot exist in Arabia". Who knows what context and in what manner this statement was made. As you know, hadiths were collected 200 years after the fact using the system of "my grandfather used to say that his uncle reported that X heard the holy prophet say Y". This is obviously a recipe for finding thousands of statements, mostly without context and almost all without independent corroboration. Make of it what you will...
How this is interpreted obviously varies. Hardline wahabis DO interpret it as an order to keep the peninsula clear of all other religions. But equally obviously, there are many religions in the peninsula right now, so the "rule" is not being followed....
Omar
--- On Wed, 12/2/09, davender bhardwaj <davenderbhardwaj@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: davender bhardwaj <davenderbhardwaj@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
To: "omar ali" <omarali502000@yahoo.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 2, 2009, 11:40 AM
--- On Tue, 12/1/09, omar ali <omarali502000@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: omar ali <omarali502000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Fw: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
To: "asiapeace" <asiapeace@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 8:04 AM
--- On Tue, 12/1/09, akhtar husain <akhtar46_1999@ yahoo.com> wrote:
From: akhtar husain <akhtar46_1999@ yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
To: "omar ali" <omarali502000@ yahoo.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:09 AM
--- On Tue, 12/1/09, omar ali <omarali502000@ yahoo.com> wrote:
From: omar ali <omarali502000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
To: "asiapeace" <asiapeace@yahoogrou ps.com>, abdalian@yahoogroup s.com, shaheryar.azhar@ gmail.com, crdp@yahoogroups. com, Pakistan_Futures@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 1:51 AM
Swiss minaret ban fits pattern of populist protest in Western Europe
Friday, December 4, 2009
[mukto-mona] Fwd: Fw: Re: Re: Asiapeace (ACHA) Swiss minaret ban
From: mehulkamdar@yahoo.com
Dear Dr Irfani,
The Ark was built by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.
From: akhtar46_1999@yahoo.com
All that you have said may be true. If Saudis are doing that in Hyderabad then who is to blame. What about the girl's family. I have a lot of Hyderabadi friends and they are very happy here. They have been here for years and years and are very happy but no one told me about this problem. It has not happened to any of their daughters.
Saudis are not angels but if they are so ba why millions are selling all their assets to come here from India a nd bangldesh and Pakistan. I am here 29 years and alhamdolillah I am exrtremely happy. Any how today Islamically this is the place in the world.
From: mehulkamdar@yahoo.com
Dear Dr Irfani,
Mr Akhtar Husain, when you say "criticism of Saudi Arabia is unfair", then,
What says you Mr Akhtar Husain, in defense of your "KSA" your holy citadel of "good things!" and pure Islam?
Let's count the ways!
From: omarali502000@yahoo.com
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