In Arab countries all the ministrial documents, a majority of them carrying on the top Bismillah
From: "shafiq013@yahoo.com" <shafiq013@yahoo.com>
To: alochona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 27 July 2011, 5:37:44
Subject: [ALOCHONA] Re: Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
--- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, qar <qrahman@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Alochok Shafiq,
>
> I do not mind any civilized discussion or "Alochona". We used to have lot more "Alochona" than forwarding articles in this forum. I look at things a little differently. If I live in the US and one of my fellow Bangladeshis is in trouble, I will not ask if he/she supports BNP or BAL party. First, if I am able, I'll help him/her. We are Bangladeshis first. Both of you are members of this forum and have God given right to disagree on issues.
>
> I agree with you that, "Islam" is not a monopoly of any party. Neither is "Muktijuddho of 71". When the Pakistani army attacked us many of our forefathers were killed without committing any crime against the country. We were "Bengalis" and that was our ONLY identity.
>
> In a "FREE" country people disagree and in a democracy people have the right to support any party they like. As long we are peaceful and avoiding violence, I do not see any harm in it. Sadly you will NOT find any political party that does not have a large army of "Thugs" who are often violent. Therefore, we as people are not honest with ourselves. Even educated people are too eager to throw support to political parties with immoral practices and policies.
>
> Even eager Jamaat-e-Islamic party supports agree that, they were in the wrong side of history during 71. Some were opportunists and some people had genuine emotional ties to the concept of Pakistan { A safe country of Muslims of sub-continent}. Similar to the concept of Israel. Which was re-created to offer a safe place for Jewish people.
>
> Things did not work out well among fellow Pakistanis and we were blessed to have Bangladesh. If you ask around you will see majority people [ Practicing and non-practicing Muslims] do take the name of Allah(SWT) before doing regular and important work. We offer Salaams { Wishing "Peace" to each other} among us regardless of religious backgrounds. Therefore, having "Bismillah" in front of the "Charter of our nation" is only natural.
>
> I am not confused about secular, atheist or agnostic. Have pretty good idea about what these concepts stands for. I disagree with you and I would repeat what I said before. IN BANGLADESH ( A non Arabic speaking country) words like "Bismillah" or "Salaam" are symbolic in most cases.
>
> Going back to your point about American concept of secular country. It is a secular country with symbolic reference to its Judeo-Christian background. Therefore, the dollar bills say, "In God we trust" NOT "In gods we trust". The calender we use starts with the alleged death of "Jesus" [ Perceived as God in Christendom]. It would be like if we started using "Hijri" years in national matters. Last time I checked we DON"T do that!!
>
> Therefore, so called supporters of "Secular" Bangladesh are not aware of history, reality of Bangladesh and [ Often] intellectually shallow to understand the very concept they support.
>
> Bangladesh is NOT an "Islamic republic" rather a "People's republic", so we do not follow Islamic laws in this country rather we follow "Secular laws" which comes from English common laws [ England, America and sub-continent share this history as well].
>
> I do not think Mr. Ramjan said he is a supporter of Jamat but you "Assumed" that he was. I think we should be less judgmental about such things. Sad fact is Jamaat is the only major party in Bangladesh that practice democracy inside their party. NO other party follows democracy inside their respective institutions. They simply "Install" sons and daughters of party leaders without adequately testing their leadership skills.
>
> I did not spell out anything new here, all of us know these things.
>
> It would be nice to see we start showing genuine respect to each others and respect opinions of others even if it is different from ours. I think we are out worst enemies and say awful things about fellow Bengalis more than any of our perceived or real enemies.
>
> As far as showing respect to freedom fighter is concern, it is a token of my gratitude to those brave souls who gave us a free country. I am not powerful enough to do more for them ( They are often used as political tool in our country) but I try to be respectful for their contribution over those nine months. If you do not agree with me, I'll take it as "Your opinion" on it. No big deal. Respect has to be earned and we should not force respect on anyone!! :-)
>
> I enjoyed reading your mail. Take care.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shafiq013 shafiq013@...
> To: alochona alochona@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, Jul 25, 2011 11:01 am
> Subject: [ALOCHONA] Re: Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mr. QAR (I think I am right, most probably you are not Mrs or Ms)
> Though my addressing to Mr. Ramjan as Mr. Mo'meen was intentional,my apologies if it has offended you (and to Mr. Ramazan for that matter). ButMr. QAR (sorry again if you are a Mrs. or Ms), go back and re-read the postingof Mr. Ramazan and if you are not a biased person you will realize that it isnot a sensible writing. Should I tell Islam is the religion of masses in Bangladesh(including me Alhumdullah) and no way monopoly of a certain group or party. Worstwhen political parties are using Islam for their political means.
> Having said so, I am still waiting for my queries to Mr. Ramazan,if he or even you can answer it:
>
>
> · Tell me honestly how many times ina day you start your work with the name of ALLAH?
> · Why limiting "Bissmillah "to constitution only? Why not on each andevery document?
>
>
> Should I tell you Words Bissmillah ___________ is not symbolic. These are word of Quran and I totally agree with Mr.Ramazan that every work a Muslim starts must start with it? I will like to askMr. Ramazan and alike, are we gone that weak as Muslim, not to remember it everytime. We need it in writing. And if we have gone that weak then even writing ofit will not work.
> And all this has nothing to do if Mr.Ramazan is a freedom fighter or not. All his previous writings suggest he is influencedby the philosophy of Jamaat. Jamaat openly admits that they were for unitedPakistan during 71 war. How Mr. Ramazan went against the philosophy of theparty he supports? In all cases I don't have any problem, if he expresses hisviews provided it commensurate to the forum he is addressing. Does not matterhe is a freedom fighter or not.
> I think you are confused between asecular and an atheist. USA may be secular but not atheist. And every religionon this earth gives the teaching that "In God we trust."
> In the end I agree that we should utilizemore of our time in addressing the national issues which require moreattention.
>
>
> Shafiq
>
>
> --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, qar qrahman@ wrote:
> >
> >
> > Alochok Shafiq,
> >
> > Think you are a little off here. The name of the gentleman is Mr. M Ramjan not Mo'meen. He said practicing Muslims (Mo'meen) should start everything with remembering name of Allah (SWT). Albeit I do not think it will have any major impact in our daily lives. Since we downgraded remembrance of Allah into a social custom.
> >
> > Having said that, I think Mr. Ramjan is a freedom fighter ( Correct me if I am wrong). As a citizen of Bangladesh and a special son of this country (Muktijodda) he should have every right to freely express his opinions. We should not assume everything everyone do for political reasons. Those so called "Islamic parties" already abused Islam and made it unpopular to many Bangladeshis. But average people of this country do respect Islam and have no major issues with remembering Allah in daily lives.
> >
> > I am just confused to see why so many of us are so "Worked up" about this "Common sense" issue. Secular USA has "In God we trust" in dollar bills. At the same time they try to protect rights of minorities when it needs protection. What is the big deal about a (Mostly symbolic name) in front of our constitution? We are NOT an "Islamic republic" rather "People's republic". Since close to 88% of "The people" claims to follow Islam, what is so awful about mentioning that in front of "Our" constitution? I think our current PM did the right thing by leaving it alone. To be effective leaders, we have to stay close to reality and actions have to reflect wishes of the people.
> >
> > These "Pie in the sky" discussions are meaningless and waste of our precious time. We should see how to lower prices of oil, rice, lentil etc. That should be the topic of our national debate. But I see absurd agendas are taking headlines. How sad...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: shafiq013 shafiq013@
> > To: alochona alochona@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sat, Jul 2, 2011 9:19 pm
> > Subject: [ALOCHONA] Re: Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mr. Mo'meen
> > You are right. Anywork, Mo'meen should start with by the name of Allah. Tell me honestly how manytimes in a day you start your work with the name of ALLAH? And why you arelimiting it to constitution only? Why not on each and every document? I tellyou why. Because you and people like you don't even spare name of ALLAH for theirpolitical gains. You are just exploiting the religious sentiments of majorityof the population. Explain why you did not start writing your posting with "Bismillah-----."
> > Shafiq
> > --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, Mohammed Ramjan mramjan@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Loosing time for nothing. Any work, Mo'meen start with by the name of Allah and so to the constitution. If a few does not like why the nation shall carry their residue. Go for public votes if so courageous, but foxes will never do so.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To: alochona@yahoogroups.com
> > > From: emanur@
> > > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:05:59 +0100
> > > Subject: RE: [ALOCHONA] Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If vandalisation of the Constitution is akin to condoning the genocide of 1971, what about abusing or ignoring it? Are we about to see the nethri-wali actually take her nethri to task?
> > >
> > > Funny how ever nethri-wallah/wali when finding themselves in a corner, resort to the blood of 1971 as justification or more importantly, the point beyond which no one would dare question.
> > >
> > > I'm so sorry you nethri-lovers....those days are over.
> > >
> > > The constitution is a joke. Its well written, it means well, it even looks nice when printed on good quality vellum paper but as long as we have nethris, its relevance and meaning is as important as the placing of wreaths by those same self-serving nethris and their sycophants at independence monuments - nothing, just crass hypocrisy.
> > >
> > > Lets be clear, whatever happened in 1971, the nethris and their sycophants urinate on the graves of all who were killed then and all who have been killed subsequently (a much higher number) every waking hour of every single day.
> > >
> > > So, while we're in the territory of hyperbolae lets get it right: support for the nethris is akin to condoning the genocide of 1971 and the ONGOING GENOCIDE of Bangladeshis by these nethris through political violence, incompetence and corruption.
> > >
> > >
> > > Emanur Rahman, UK
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: alochona@yahoogroups.com [mailto:alochona@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Farida Majid
> > > Sent: 08 June 2011 22:28
> > > To: Alochona Alochona
> > > Subject: RE: [ALOCHONA] Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
> > >
> > >
> > > Mr. Aziz Huq wrote about my plea to the Parliament for the removal of 'bismillah' from the Preamble in the Constitution of Bangladesh:
> > >
> > > "Couching personal political opinion with limited knoledge".
> > >
> > > My response:
> > >
> > > Rabbi zidnee ailmaa
> > >
> > > Even illiterates, semiliterates, schoolgoing children, garments'er meye, sabziwalla, rickshawalla, bricklayers, smithies, peasant men and women, fishermen and women, and all the other people of "limited knowledge" in this nation know that invoking Allah's name for the purpose of falsification, for the pupose of fooling others and to hide a deceitful, illegal act is kufri and charom gonahgari kaj.
> > >
> > > Putting 'bismillah' in the Constitution of Bangladesh by a Martial Law ordinance promulgated by the wish of a single ruthless Military Dictator was done with an evil political purpose, not because he was some kind of a devout religious preacher who had no better idea about the people's War of Independence in 1971. The Constitution of Bangladesh is meant to guarantee fundamental rights to EVERY citizen. It is not a place for the State to advertise the preference of one religion over all the other religions or ethnicity of non-Muslim inhabitants of the state. It is ironic that this was done under the supposed aegis of Islam, a religion known for its keen sense of equal justice for all. Besides Qur'anic guidance, we have the Sunnah to give us models to follow.
> > >
> > > Vandalisation of the Constitution is akin to condoning the Genocide of 1971, or the mass murder of civilians and fellow citizens who fought to oppose the oppression of a State (Pakistan) created in 1947 on the false premise that Muslims cannot live peacefully with people of other religions or ethnicity.
> > >
> > > Rabbi zidnee ailmaa
> > >
> > > And if Allah sub hana t'ala very kndly granted me greater knowledge than what I have now, would I have "impersonal political opinion" as opposed to having my personal political opinion?
> > >
> > > What am I couching my personal political opinion in? Hope Mr. Aziz Huq will oblige with an answer in his infinite wisdom.
> > >
> > > Rabbi zidnee ailmaa
> > >
> > > Farida Majid
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To: alochona@yahoogroups.com
> > > From: azizhuq@
> > > Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 23:14:18 +0000
> > > Subject: RE: [ALOCHONA] Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Wow! Couching personal political opinion with limited knoledge.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: farida_majid@
> > > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 19:26:55 -0400
> > > Subject: [ALOCHONA] Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Use of `bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Farida Majid
> > >
> > > Sentimental objection against removal of "bismillah"s placement in the Constitution of Bangladesh has begun just as I apprehended. This is a familiar trick reminiscent of Hitler's campaign rhetoric stoking popular racial and ethnic sentiments in 1930s Germany. Later the Catholic Church of Austria used religious sentiments to persecute the Jews and oust them from Vienna. The lesson to be learned is that the word of God, when politically manipulated, can bring massive human destruction. The Genocide of 1971 is scorched in our memory.
> > >
> > > When I raised the issue of illegally placed "bismillah" above the Preamble of the Constitution of Bangladesh in the internet forums, I got angry responses. Accused of being anti-Islam and a paid servant of Zionist masters, I was asked: "Why "Bismillah" is a problem for you?"
> > >
> > > `Bismillah' is not a problem for me. It is a constant and trusted companion. Besides using it in prayers, I love saying it at the commencement of any good work, and I love writing it. Give me a minute or two, and any old pen, and even without practice, I will write `bismillah' in Arabic in passable Nashtaliq calligraphic style.
> > >
> > > I do have a problem though with a thing called Martial Law. There is no such thing called `Martial Law' in the Constitution of the People's Republic of Bangladesh. `Bismillah' should not be put above the Preamble of the nation's Constitution by an unlawful usurper of civilian power who called himself Chief Martial Law Administrator. The use of `bismillah' for such crass political purpose behind the clout of illegal Martial Law by a Proclamation Order in 1977, thereby betraying the trust of 150 million people should surely count as the most shocking and egregious blasphemy! It is pure kufri!
> > >
> > > See the Holy Qur'an for a strong interdiction against invoking Allah's name in an unlawful act like this in Sura Hud (11: 18):
> > >
> > > Waman athlamu mimmani iftara AAala Allahi kathiban ola-ika yuAAradhoona AAala rabbihim wayaqoolu al-ashhadu haola-i allatheena kathaboo AAala rabbihim ala laAAnatu Allahi AAala alththalimeena
> > >
> > > And who (is) more unjust/oppressive than who fabricated/cut and split on God lies/denials/falsifications? Those, they are being displayed/exhibited/shown on (to) their Lord, and the witnesses/testifiers (the angels) say: "Those (are) those who lied/denied/falsified upon their Lord." Is not God's curse/torture on the unjust/oppressors? …11:18
> > >
> > > Anything that bears the sign of preference for one particular religion, be it the religion of a large number of natives, is debris from the illegal acts of constitutional vandalism. Surely it is blasphemous to use the hallowed name of Allah as a mark to legitimize such an act of unjust vandalism. By upholding the welcome repeal of the Fifth Amendment, Act 1979, the Supreme Court has fulfilled the duty of the judiciary in the service of preserving and defending the Constitution of Bangladesh. Now it seems that a Parliamentary process should be put in place to remove this heinous blasphemy and restore the sanctity of the Constitution of the People's Republic of Bangladesh.
> > >
> > > Independence from the British rule, and then from Pakistan's oppression, must mean freedom from the dreadful colonial practice of categorization of people and computation of demography by the professed faith of a person or a group. Counting people by their religions means everyone is forced into a pre-selected classification that ignores other principles of grouping. We must stop the practice of depicting majority/minority on the basis of religion alone.
> > >
> > > The Parliament should do its part to fulfill the obligation of preserving and protecting the Constitution that represents our valiant fight for independence from a false statehood (Pakistan) whose existential basis was this weird notion of computation of people by their religion. Pakistan was a disasterous experiment in a bad idea! The birth of Bangladesh in 1971 proved conclusively that Muslim Bengalis do not need a separate state as Muslims only and no one else. They can live with people of other religions and ethnicity as they have happily and prosperously done so for centuries.
> > >
> > > ©2011, Farida Majid
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If this email is spam, report it to www.OnlyMyEmail.com
> > >
> >
>
To: alochona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 27 July 2011, 5:37:44
Subject: [ALOCHONA] Re: Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
Mr. QAR
I really don't want to indulge in discussions like this. But then I decided to write you back because I thought some points need some clarifications.
First of all let me tell and many including you will agree that the most disturbing thing in this forum is use of uncivilized language. However, I understand that this forum has a large membership and people of different background are members of this forum.
You said and I quote, "I look at things a little differently. If I live in the US and one of my fellow Bangladeshis is in trouble, I will not ask if he/she supports BNP or BAL party. First, if I am able, I'll help him/her. We are Bangladeshis first." Hi! I don't know if anybody is thinking differently. Of course you are not an exception. Sorry, I did not understand which both you are referring to.
You are right Muktijuddho of 71 is not monopoly of any party. Every living, adult with good understanding and with any political affiliation East Pakistani (I used the word East Pakistani because Bangladesh was not born by then) was a Mukti Juddha. Some of them went to action; some did not but were still supporting the movement. Yes, there were exceptions; some derailed opportunists opposed the liberation war purely on political ground, as they lost then a recently held election to a party which was spearheading the movement. Unfortunately, they did not contain themselves to just opposing it but got involved in looting, killing and raping of women very regrettably in the name of Islam and Pakistan. I don't want to go in to details of it here.
Again you said, "Even eager Jamaat-e-Islamic party supports agree that, they were in the wrong side of history during 71. Some were opportunists and some people had genuine emotional ties to the concept of Pakistan {A safe country of Muslims of sub-continent}". But have they apologized for it? The Nation owes an apology from them. No they have not done it as yet. I agree with you there are only two countries on the earth which were formed on the basis of religion, Pakistan and Israel. Unfortunately, the theory of two nations failed in Pakistan's case.
You touched the state of affairs in present Pakistan. Tell me other than its name as Islamic Republic, what is Islamic there? Starting from the weekend (which was changed to Sunday from Friday) to the way the women dress there. Alhumdullah, we in general, are better Muslims than them though we are "People's Republic". You, simply don't become good muslims by writing Islam (or Bismillah -----) in front and vice versa. Again, tell me what Muslims of sub-continent actually achieved by creating Pakistan? Granted, Pakistan and Bangladesh with majority of Muslim population are free countries. But have you ever thought about 20 crores Muslims left in India? On whose mercy you have left them in India?
You are demeaning the muslims of Bangladesh when you said, IN BANGLADESH ( A non Arabic speaking country) words like "Bismillah" or "Salaam" are symbolic in most cases. Every muslim of Bangladesh (for that matter any part of the word, be it be Arab or non-arab) what "Bismillah------------ " and "Salaam" means.
As I said earlier, I have nothing to do if Mr. Ramazan is a freedom fighter or not. I said and I repear every abled person alive at that time was, excepting very few. However, if you go back and read his previous postings it is very evident that he is a stern supporter of Jammat. Even, he will not deny it. I have to repeat, philosophy of Jamaat was against the freedom movement. Honestly, I don't know if Jamaat is the only major party in Bangladesh that practice democracy inside their party. I see Jamaat as believing in "Rog Katta", "Gula Katta" and "Lathial" politics. Which, unfortunately, are not the teachings of Islam. So to me, Jamaat is a party mis-using Islam for their political gains.
I thought I have written enough, I end up repeating the same questions to Mr. Ramazan and alike:
- · Tell me honestly how many times in a day you start your work with the name of ALLAH?
- · Why limiting "Bissmillah "to constitution only? Why not on each and every document?
With lot of regards
Shafiq
--- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, qar <qrahman@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Alochok Shafiq,
>
> I do not mind any civilized discussion or "Alochona". We used to have lot more "Alochona" than forwarding articles in this forum. I look at things a little differently. If I live in the US and one of my fellow Bangladeshis is in trouble, I will not ask if he/she supports BNP or BAL party. First, if I am able, I'll help him/her. We are Bangladeshis first. Both of you are members of this forum and have God given right to disagree on issues.
>
> I agree with you that, "Islam" is not a monopoly of any party. Neither is "Muktijuddho of 71". When the Pakistani army attacked us many of our forefathers were killed without committing any crime against the country. We were "Bengalis" and that was our ONLY identity.
>
> In a "FREE" country people disagree and in a democracy people have the right to support any party they like. As long we are peaceful and avoiding violence, I do not see any harm in it. Sadly you will NOT find any political party that does not have a large army of "Thugs" who are often violent. Therefore, we as people are not honest with ourselves. Even educated people are too eager to throw support to political parties with immoral practices and policies.
>
> Even eager Jamaat-e-Islamic party supports agree that, they were in the wrong side of history during 71. Some were opportunists and some people had genuine emotional ties to the concept of Pakistan { A safe country of Muslims of sub-continent}. Similar to the concept of Israel. Which was re-created to offer a safe place for Jewish people.
>
> Things did not work out well among fellow Pakistanis and we were blessed to have Bangladesh. If you ask around you will see majority people [ Practicing and non-practicing Muslims] do take the name of Allah(SWT) before doing regular and important work. We offer Salaams { Wishing "Peace" to each other} among us regardless of religious backgrounds. Therefore, having "Bismillah" in front of the "Charter of our nation" is only natural.
>
> I am not confused about secular, atheist or agnostic. Have pretty good idea about what these concepts stands for. I disagree with you and I would repeat what I said before. IN BANGLADESH ( A non Arabic speaking country) words like "Bismillah" or "Salaam" are symbolic in most cases.
>
> Going back to your point about American concept of secular country. It is a secular country with symbolic reference to its Judeo-Christian background. Therefore, the dollar bills say, "In God we trust" NOT "In gods we trust". The calender we use starts with the alleged death of "Jesus" [ Perceived as God in Christendom]. It would be like if we started using "Hijri" years in national matters. Last time I checked we DON"T do that!!
>
> Therefore, so called supporters of "Secular" Bangladesh are not aware of history, reality of Bangladesh and [ Often] intellectually shallow to understand the very concept they support.
>
> Bangladesh is NOT an "Islamic republic" rather a "People's republic", so we do not follow Islamic laws in this country rather we follow "Secular laws" which comes from English common laws [ England, America and sub-continent share this history as well].
>
> I do not think Mr. Ramjan said he is a supporter of Jamat but you "Assumed" that he was. I think we should be less judgmental about such things. Sad fact is Jamaat is the only major party in Bangladesh that practice democracy inside their party. NO other party follows democracy inside their respective institutions. They simply "Install" sons and daughters of party leaders without adequately testing their leadership skills.
>
> I did not spell out anything new here, all of us know these things.
>
> It would be nice to see we start showing genuine respect to each others and respect opinions of others even if it is different from ours. I think we are out worst enemies and say awful things about fellow Bengalis more than any of our perceived or real enemies.
>
> As far as showing respect to freedom fighter is concern, it is a token of my gratitude to those brave souls who gave us a free country. I am not powerful enough to do more for them ( They are often used as political tool in our country) but I try to be respectful for their contribution over those nine months. If you do not agree with me, I'll take it as "Your opinion" on it. No big deal. Respect has to be earned and we should not force respect on anyone!! :-)
>
> I enjoyed reading your mail. Take care.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shafiq013 shafiq013@...
> To: alochona alochona@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, Jul 25, 2011 11:01 am
> Subject: [ALOCHONA] Re: Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mr. QAR (I think I am right, most probably you are not Mrs or Ms)
> Though my addressing to Mr. Ramjan as Mr. Mo'meen was intentional,my apologies if it has offended you (and to Mr. Ramazan for that matter). ButMr. QAR (sorry again if you are a Mrs. or Ms), go back and re-read the postingof Mr. Ramazan and if you are not a biased person you will realize that it isnot a sensible writing. Should I tell Islam is the religion of masses in Bangladesh(including me Alhumdullah) and no way monopoly of a certain group or party. Worstwhen political parties are using Islam for their political means.
> Having said so, I am still waiting for my queries to Mr. Ramazan,if he or even you can answer it:
>
>
> · Tell me honestly how many times ina day you start your work with the name of ALLAH?
> · Why limiting "Bissmillah "to constitution only? Why not on each andevery document?
>
>
> Should I tell you Words Bissmillah ___________ is not symbolic. These are word of Quran and I totally agree with Mr.Ramazan that every work a Muslim starts must start with it? I will like to askMr. Ramazan and alike, are we gone that weak as Muslim, not to remember it everytime. We need it in writing. And if we have gone that weak then even writing ofit will not work.
> And all this has nothing to do if Mr.Ramazan is a freedom fighter or not. All his previous writings suggest he is influencedby the philosophy of Jamaat. Jamaat openly admits that they were for unitedPakistan during 71 war. How Mr. Ramazan went against the philosophy of theparty he supports? In all cases I don't have any problem, if he expresses hisviews provided it commensurate to the forum he is addressing. Does not matterhe is a freedom fighter or not.
> I think you are confused between asecular and an atheist. USA may be secular but not atheist. And every religionon this earth gives the teaching that "In God we trust."
> In the end I agree that we should utilizemore of our time in addressing the national issues which require moreattention.
>
>
> Shafiq
>
>
> --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, qar qrahman@ wrote:
> >
> >
> > Alochok Shafiq,
> >
> > Think you are a little off here. The name of the gentleman is Mr. M Ramjan not Mo'meen. He said practicing Muslims (Mo'meen) should start everything with remembering name of Allah (SWT). Albeit I do not think it will have any major impact in our daily lives. Since we downgraded remembrance of Allah into a social custom.
> >
> > Having said that, I think Mr. Ramjan is a freedom fighter ( Correct me if I am wrong). As a citizen of Bangladesh and a special son of this country (Muktijodda) he should have every right to freely express his opinions. We should not assume everything everyone do for political reasons. Those so called "Islamic parties" already abused Islam and made it unpopular to many Bangladeshis. But average people of this country do respect Islam and have no major issues with remembering Allah in daily lives.
> >
> > I am just confused to see why so many of us are so "Worked up" about this "Common sense" issue. Secular USA has "In God we trust" in dollar bills. At the same time they try to protect rights of minorities when it needs protection. What is the big deal about a (Mostly symbolic name) in front of our constitution? We are NOT an "Islamic republic" rather "People's republic". Since close to 88% of "The people" claims to follow Islam, what is so awful about mentioning that in front of "Our" constitution? I think our current PM did the right thing by leaving it alone. To be effective leaders, we have to stay close to reality and actions have to reflect wishes of the people.
> >
> > These "Pie in the sky" discussions are meaningless and waste of our precious time. We should see how to lower prices of oil, rice, lentil etc. That should be the topic of our national debate. But I see absurd agendas are taking headlines. How sad...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: shafiq013 shafiq013@
> > To: alochona alochona@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sat, Jul 2, 2011 9:19 pm
> > Subject: [ALOCHONA] Re: Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mr. Mo'meen
> > You are right. Anywork, Mo'meen should start with by the name of Allah. Tell me honestly how manytimes in a day you start your work with the name of ALLAH? And why you arelimiting it to constitution only? Why not on each and every document? I tellyou why. Because you and people like you don't even spare name of ALLAH for theirpolitical gains. You are just exploiting the religious sentiments of majorityof the population. Explain why you did not start writing your posting with "Bismillah-----."
> > Shafiq
> > --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, Mohammed Ramjan mramjan@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Loosing time for nothing. Any work, Mo'meen start with by the name of Allah and so to the constitution. If a few does not like why the nation shall carry their residue. Go for public votes if so courageous, but foxes will never do so.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To: alochona@yahoogroups.com
> > > From: emanur@
> > > Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 10:05:59 +0100
> > > Subject: RE: [ALOCHONA] Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If vandalisation of the Constitution is akin to condoning the genocide of 1971, what about abusing or ignoring it? Are we about to see the nethri-wali actually take her nethri to task?
> > >
> > > Funny how ever nethri-wallah/wali when finding themselves in a corner, resort to the blood of 1971 as justification or more importantly, the point beyond which no one would dare question.
> > >
> > > I'm so sorry you nethri-lovers....those days are over.
> > >
> > > The constitution is a joke. Its well written, it means well, it even looks nice when printed on good quality vellum paper but as long as we have nethris, its relevance and meaning is as important as the placing of wreaths by those same self-serving nethris and their sycophants at independence monuments - nothing, just crass hypocrisy.
> > >
> > > Lets be clear, whatever happened in 1971, the nethris and their sycophants urinate on the graves of all who were killed then and all who have been killed subsequently (a much higher number) every waking hour of every single day.
> > >
> > > So, while we're in the territory of hyperbolae lets get it right: support for the nethris is akin to condoning the genocide of 1971 and the ONGOING GENOCIDE of Bangladeshis by these nethris through political violence, incompetence and corruption.
> > >
> > >
> > > Emanur Rahman, UK
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: alochona@yahoogroups.com [mailto:alochona@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Farida Majid
> > > Sent: 08 June 2011 22:28
> > > To: Alochona Alochona
> > > Subject: RE: [ALOCHONA] Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
> > >
> > >
> > > Mr. Aziz Huq wrote about my plea to the Parliament for the removal of 'bismillah' from the Preamble in the Constitution of Bangladesh:
> > >
> > > "Couching personal political opinion with limited knoledge".
> > >
> > > My response:
> > >
> > > Rabbi zidnee ailmaa
> > >
> > > Even illiterates, semiliterates, schoolgoing children, garments'er meye, sabziwalla, rickshawalla, bricklayers, smithies, peasant men and women, fishermen and women, and all the other people of "limited knowledge" in this nation know that invoking Allah's name for the purpose of falsification, for the pupose of fooling others and to hide a deceitful, illegal act is kufri and charom gonahgari kaj.
> > >
> > > Putting 'bismillah' in the Constitution of Bangladesh by a Martial Law ordinance promulgated by the wish of a single ruthless Military Dictator was done with an evil political purpose, not because he was some kind of a devout religious preacher who had no better idea about the people's War of Independence in 1971. The Constitution of Bangladesh is meant to guarantee fundamental rights to EVERY citizen. It is not a place for the State to advertise the preference of one religion over all the other religions or ethnicity of non-Muslim inhabitants of the state. It is ironic that this was done under the supposed aegis of Islam, a religion known for its keen sense of equal justice for all. Besides Qur'anic guidance, we have the Sunnah to give us models to follow.
> > >
> > > Vandalisation of the Constitution is akin to condoning the Genocide of 1971, or the mass murder of civilians and fellow citizens who fought to oppose the oppression of a State (Pakistan) created in 1947 on the false premise that Muslims cannot live peacefully with people of other religions or ethnicity.
> > >
> > > Rabbi zidnee ailmaa
> > >
> > > And if Allah sub hana t'ala very kndly granted me greater knowledge than what I have now, would I have "impersonal political opinion" as opposed to having my personal political opinion?
> > >
> > > What am I couching my personal political opinion in? Hope Mr. Aziz Huq will oblige with an answer in his infinite wisdom.
> > >
> > > Rabbi zidnee ailmaa
> > >
> > > Farida Majid
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To: alochona@yahoogroups.com
> > > From: azizhuq@
> > > Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 23:14:18 +0000
> > > Subject: RE: [ALOCHONA] Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Wow! Couching personal political opinion with limited knoledge.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: farida_majid@
> > > Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 19:26:55 -0400
> > > Subject: [ALOCHONA] Use of 'bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Use of `bismillah' in the Constitution is Blasphemous!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Farida Majid
> > >
> > > Sentimental objection against removal of "bismillah"s placement in the Constitution of Bangladesh has begun just as I apprehended. This is a familiar trick reminiscent of Hitler's campaign rhetoric stoking popular racial and ethnic sentiments in 1930s Germany. Later the Catholic Church of Austria used religious sentiments to persecute the Jews and oust them from Vienna. The lesson to be learned is that the word of God, when politically manipulated, can bring massive human destruction. The Genocide of 1971 is scorched in our memory.
> > >
> > > When I raised the issue of illegally placed "bismillah" above the Preamble of the Constitution of Bangladesh in the internet forums, I got angry responses. Accused of being anti-Islam and a paid servant of Zionist masters, I was asked: "Why "Bismillah" is a problem for you?"
> > >
> > > `Bismillah' is not a problem for me. It is a constant and trusted companion. Besides using it in prayers, I love saying it at the commencement of any good work, and I love writing it. Give me a minute or two, and any old pen, and even without practice, I will write `bismillah' in Arabic in passable Nashtaliq calligraphic style.
> > >
> > > I do have a problem though with a thing called Martial Law. There is no such thing called `Martial Law' in the Constitution of the People's Republic of Bangladesh. `Bismillah' should not be put above the Preamble of the nation's Constitution by an unlawful usurper of civilian power who called himself Chief Martial Law Administrator. The use of `bismillah' for such crass political purpose behind the clout of illegal Martial Law by a Proclamation Order in 1977, thereby betraying the trust of 150 million people should surely count as the most shocking and egregious blasphemy! It is pure kufri!
> > >
> > > See the Holy Qur'an for a strong interdiction against invoking Allah's name in an unlawful act like this in Sura Hud (11: 18):
> > >
> > > Waman athlamu mimmani iftara AAala Allahi kathiban ola-ika yuAAradhoona AAala rabbihim wayaqoolu al-ashhadu haola-i allatheena kathaboo AAala rabbihim ala laAAnatu Allahi AAala alththalimeena
> > >
> > > And who (is) more unjust/oppressive than who fabricated/cut and split on God lies/denials/falsifications? Those, they are being displayed/exhibited/shown on (to) their Lord, and the witnesses/testifiers (the angels) say: "Those (are) those who lied/denied/falsified upon their Lord." Is not God's curse/torture on the unjust/oppressors? …11:18
> > >
> > > Anything that bears the sign of preference for one particular religion, be it the religion of a large number of natives, is debris from the illegal acts of constitutional vandalism. Surely it is blasphemous to use the hallowed name of Allah as a mark to legitimize such an act of unjust vandalism. By upholding the welcome repeal of the Fifth Amendment, Act 1979, the Supreme Court has fulfilled the duty of the judiciary in the service of preserving and defending the Constitution of Bangladesh. Now it seems that a Parliamentary process should be put in place to remove this heinous blasphemy and restore the sanctity of the Constitution of the People's Republic of Bangladesh.
> > >
> > > Independence from the British rule, and then from Pakistan's oppression, must mean freedom from the dreadful colonial practice of categorization of people and computation of demography by the professed faith of a person or a group. Counting people by their religions means everyone is forced into a pre-selected classification that ignores other principles of grouping. We must stop the practice of depicting majority/minority on the basis of religion alone.
> > >
> > > The Parliament should do its part to fulfill the obligation of preserving and protecting the Constitution that represents our valiant fight for independence from a false statehood (Pakistan) whose existential basis was this weird notion of computation of people by their religion. Pakistan was a disasterous experiment in a bad idea! The birth of Bangladesh in 1971 proved conclusively that Muslim Bengalis do not need a separate state as Muslims only and no one else. They can live with people of other religions and ethnicity as they have happily and prosperously done so for centuries.
> > >
> > > ©2011, Farida Majid
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If this email is spam, report it to www.OnlyMyEmail.com
> > >
> >
>
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