Re: [mukto-mona] Re: The sprit of Bangalee nationalism?

Dear member, 

You made some valid comments about Bangla term "Jati" until you started your rant against religion and Ziaur Rahman. I look forward to learn from you and (Hopefully) you can drop the rants against dead people and religion (And truly become "Mukto-Mona"). 

As I stated earlier if this forum becomes a platform to pat each other on the back for showing hatred against religion or religious people, we have to re-name this to "Somo-mona" forum (That would be more HONEST title!). 

Become a free thinker and enjoy discussions from ALL points of views!! 

Peace. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jaffor <jhankar@bellsouth.net>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Sep 29, 2011 1:06 am
Subject: [mukto-mona] Re: The sprit of Bangalee nationalism?

 

Mr. S.A. Hannan,

Please allow me to make some comments on your short post, which contains some serious errors. It seems as if you are becoming confused concerning the word "Jati." Let us look into the etymology of the word Jati or Jaati.It is a Bangla word derived from the root word "Jaat" or "Jat". The word Jati has many meanings such as: Prakar, Sreni (for example Manabjaati, Streejaati, Hindujaati, Aryajaati. Musolmanjati). These were excerpted from Bangla Avidhan or dictionary. You, sir, is using the term Jati in the most narrowest sense of the term. Before getting into a debate please update your knowledge base. Give me a linguistic reference to support your narrow definition. Bangalijati is a valid term linguistically speaking. This term was in vogue even before Bankimchandra Chottopadhaya lived in Bengal. The word Bangladeshijati, on the other hand, is only 36 years old and is the invention of a murderer by the name Maj. Gen. Ziaur Rahman. We shall h ave to wait to see how long this Bangladeshijati" word lasts. Please consult Sangshad Bangla Avidhan to update your knowledge base. It does not hurt to consult a dictionary before joining a debate or else there is always that chance to make a fool out of yourself.

In another post you've mentioned about religion as the basis of forming nation. Pakistan, the Islamic Utopia or Shangri-La in South Asia, only lasted from 1947 to 1971 - hardly 24 years. Jinnah's Two-nation Theory, which is based on religion only lasted less than a quarter century! Jinnah's Pakistan is in a real mess right now. If religion was such a strong glue, then, how come Europe being a Christian continent is not under one political banner or union? The Euro bloc country is however a monetary union and not to be confused with a political union. How come all the Arab nations on earth are yet to form a political union? So, what does it prove, Mr. Hannan? Religion is no longer that crazy-glue (a tough glue sold all over America for bonding materials)any more. People allover the globe are becoming less religion. This is the trend whether you like it or not. Science, which is at the catbird seat of power, is not rooted into religion. Cellphones, PC, the Internet, TV, r adio, etc., which is driving or pushing the humanity to go forward is not linked in any way to religion. Therefore in the next 100-200 years, the influence of religion on humankind will wane, unquestionably. However, I have seen in many of your posts - you tend to glorify religion to stratospheric height. Please join Mukto-mona and become a freethinker.

--- In mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com, "S A Hannan" <sahannan@...> wrote:
>
> There is no Bangalee Jati as there is no Gujrati jati or Bihari jati or
> punjabi Jati Bond of unity of bangla speaking Muslims of Bangladesh and
> Banglaspeaking Hindus of West bengal is very thin.They belong to Bangladeshi
> jati or Indian jati respectively. For becoming jati you require much
> stronger bond.
>
>
>
> Shah Abdul hannan
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Jiten Roy
> Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 8:44 AM
> To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: The sprit of Bangalee nationalism?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I do not know if there is a perfect English translation for the Bengali word
> "Jati." As a Jati - we are Bangalee, irrespective of our religious
> affiliations, castes, and creeds. Bangalee-Jati is our secular cultural
> identity. The Bangalee-Jatiotabad consists of certain secular
> characteristics, such as, we celebrate Pahela-Boishakh, Bashata-Baran,
> Ekushe-February (February 21st), etc. etc. with cultural, and ritualistic
> activities. There are other festivities and practices, which used to be
> celebrated widely, irrespective of religious affiliations, but now mainly
> scattered fashion. They are Poush-Sangcranti, celebrated with varieties of
> Cakes (Pithas), Chaitra-Sangcranti, celebrated with cultural activities and
> fairs, Maghi-Purnima, etc. etc. Bangalee-Jatiotabad, being above and beyond
> our religious characteristics, is the glue that can unite the majority under
> a true secular platform.
>
>
>
> Closest English word for 'Jatiotabad' is Nationalism; I know it does not
> completely express the full meaning of the term Jatiotabad, as we mean.
> That's where the confusion comes from. Bangalee-Jatiotabad or
> Bengali-Nationalism is not a state entity. But, state has to allow free
> exercise of those secular rights and characteristics, and state has to
> nourish it to flourish. Non-Bangalees have their own secular Jatiotabad, and
> they should be allowed to exercise them freely also.
>
>
>
> If I have misconception, please let me know.
>
>
>
> I appreciate all your comments. Thanks.
>
>
>
> Jiten Roy
>
>
> --- On Sat, 9/24/11, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@...>
> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: The sprit of Bangalee nationalism?
> To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Saturday, September 24, 2011, 7:01 PM
>
>
>
> "-------------and nationalism is a cultural identity, which reflects
> majority cultural."----Dr. Jiten Roy
>
>
>
> Let us take an example to examine Dr. Roy's comment. Nationality of Indians
> is Indian which indicates that their nationality is Indian. No problem with
> that. But which group of people constitutes the majority and what is this
> majority group's culture? Are these the people in the Hindi belt? Obviously
> not. Even being an Indian by nationality, a Bengali or an Assamese is a
> Bengali or an Assamese. Even within the subset of Bengal (West Bengal), we
> cannot force a Gorkha to identify himself as a Bengali. If the Gorkhas are
> culturally, linguistically, and historically distinct from Bengalis, why
> should we force them to call themselves Bengalis?
>
>
>
> "There is no issue of fairness in nationalism."---Dr. Jiten Roy
>
>
>
> It will be quite unfair to force a Chakma to call himself a Bengali as this
> very word reflects language, culture, and history. Politically he is a
> "citizen of Bangladesh" but culturally a Chakma. The majority has no right
> to force a Chakma to accept a Bengali's cultural identity. This is not only
> unfair, this is coercive also.
>
>
>
> "There has been an orchestrated attempt to alter our cultural identity
> (Bangalee) in this region during Pakistani era, and it is still going on in
> Bangladesh."----Dr. Jien Roy
>
>
>
> I agree. Pakistani regimes tried to redefine Bengalis in East Pakistan as
> Pakistanis. That was a political game with India. But what is going on now?
> I would expect some elaboration. Regards.
>
> From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@...>
> To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 4:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: The sprit of Bangalee nationalism?
>
>
>
>
> Everybody is missing my point. I am simply asking - what is our cultural
> identity, not our religious identity or nationality?
>
>
>
> Nationality and nationalism are two different things. Nationality is
> citizenship, and nationalism is a cultural identity, which reflects majority
> cultural. There is no issue of fairness in nationalism. There has been an
> orchestrated attempt to alter our cultural identity (Bangalee) in this
> region during Pakistani era, and it is still going on in Bangladesh.
>
>
>
> Jiten Roy --- On Thu, 9/22/11, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@...>
> Subject: [mukto-mona] Re: The sprit of Bangalee nationalism?
> To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thursday, September 22, 2011, 10:29 PM
>
>
>
> Bangladesh is a political entity, as opposed to a cultural one. May be,
> Najrul Islam's Bangla Desh and Ravindranath's Sonar Bangla were cultural,
> and those included more than the political entity of Bangladesh ; they also
> excluded at least the Chittagong Hill Tracts, which is a part of today's
> political Bangladesh .
>
>
>
> Citizenship (nationality) is not cultural. I wish the secular politicians
> and intellectuals of Bangladesh did not start this non-sense of Bangalee
> nationalism in 1971-72. It was wrong to ask the CHT people to call
> themselves Bangalees. Again, Bangalee nationalism was not really the spirit
> of all movements during 1947-71, and should not have been unless if we
> wanted to merge with West Bengal and allowed CHT to secede from us.
> Fairness, respect and dignity for Bangla and the Bangalees should not be
> considered the same as Bangalee nationalism. Bangalee nationalism would have
> demanded a separate nation for the Bangalees, even if the western Pakistanis
> treated the Bangalees with due respect. Our real spirit was no nationalism;
> it was fairness, respect and dignity for us.
>
>
>
> Citizenship for anyone who seeks it? It is not done anywhere in the world.
> All countries have their laws to govern how a non-citizen would be given
> citizenship.
>
>
>
> I would not ask Awami League to revive the so-called Bangalee nationalism
> (citizenship), rather I would ask them to respect all peoples of the land
> with respect; much like I would not ask them to call all Bangladeshis
> Muslims, much like I would not ask all Indians to be known as Hindus, much
> like I would not desire all cultural, linguistic and ethnic groups of the
> United States to be called Christians or English.
>
>
>
> Well, so long for now,
>
>
>
> Sukhamaya Bain
>
>
>
> From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@...>
> To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] HAVOC CREATED BY JAMATI'S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>
> Dr. Bain's comments tells me that, in my last sarcastic comments, I did not
> clarify my points enough; hence confusions.
>
> I was looking for a cultural identity for the people of Bangladesh. I
> explored 3 conventional identities (Bangalee, Bangladeshi, and Moderate
> Muslim), which have been used in the past to represent the people of
> Bangladesh. But, none of them seemed to encompass all people. As a result,
> the identity crisis still remains, and we do not know who we are.
>
> After Bangladesh was born, our cultural identity (Jatiota) was Bangalee, and
> our nationality was also Banglalee. Ershad changed our nationality to
> Bangladeshi. The motive was to include all the people of Bangladesh, so he
> told us at that time. Was it really the motive? If that was true - all
> non-Bangalee Biharis should have been citizen by now, and Father Tim, the
> former Principal of Notre Dame College, would have been citizen already. If
> you say that our nationality is Bangladeshi - then we should grant
> citizenship to any permanent resident of Bangladesh, if they seek one.
>
> In my view, it was done purposefully to defuse pre-independence secular
> mindset, and neutralize the Bangalee-Jatiotabadi spirit, the spirit of
> independence movement. As you know, Quranic verses and state religion
> (Islam) were also introduced in the secular constitution right around that
> time.
>
> Dr. Bain, Bangalee-Jatiotabadi spirit has been the driving force behind all
> movements in the East Pakistan since the language movement in 1952. Even
> though Sheikh Mujib was not seeking independence at the beginning, but his
> movement was fueled by the Bangali-Jatiotabadi spirit. This is the spirit
> that still can unite the mjority in Bangladesh. That's why - I have been
> asking Awami League to revive that spirit for their sake.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your comments. Love to hear from you. Don't be a stranger.
>
>
>
> Jiten Roy ---
>

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