Dear Mr. Chakravarty
If I had no respect on your abilities, I would not have protested right away. About religion, one should remember the quotation attributed to Seneca, "It is believed to be true by the fools, false by the wise, and useful by the rulers". Fernand Braudel, renowned French historian of last century quotes Ibn Sina's analysis on Islam in one of his books. Ibn Sina wondered how prophet Muhammad, being the intelligent man that he was could have founded "such rubbish as Islam" and then he came up with his own brilliant analysis; for the people he did it were fools beneath comprehension. Islam was liberal when it created Mutazilla community, and now it has given rise to Taliban and al-Quaida. While every other religious groups have reformed and liberalized, the so called religion of peace has become like Catholics in the dark age.
About wisdom, let me tell you a story I had been telling most of my audience for last three decades. A Chinese king asked a question to his wise courtier who answered,"I don't know". The king said, "You are being paid to know". The wise man said, "Your majesty, your treasury does not have enough money to pay for my ignorance"
Let us remember the essence of the above mentioned wise crack.
Regards.
2012/1/15 subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
KamalDaI have already said that I am sorry. I know you well. I have respect for you. You are a confirmed atheist and you critique all religions very sincerely. I respect your honesty and outspokenness. I cannot believe that you have misunderstood me and accused me of being apologetic (probably you meant "for muslim communalists and fundamentalists".) If you read my postings carefully, you will know that my postings can potentially anger both hindu and muslim communalists and fundamentalists. You should appreciate that I try to be analytical, base my conclusions and observations on authentic sources, and most importantly I try to see things from all perspectives in an objective manner. But I must admit that I am not as erudite as you are. But the way you react ( a brief sweeping remark most of the time) can easily make you highly misunderstood. Brevity of your remark and the rapidity with which you present it hides a lot of essential arguments that your erudition is capable of offering. That's why I have made an earnest request to you to your vast knowledge to bring in more rationality and meaningfulness in the forum. Given the fact that many communsalists and fundamentalists are out there to use this forum as a vehicle to publicize their hidden agenda, true rationalists (and nationalists as well) should be very careful in not branding this forum as a communalist one.Regards.Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] সনাতনধর্মাবলম্বীদেরগো-মাংস সরবরাহকারীদেরবিরুদ্ধেব্যবস্থা নিন
You are no psychoanalyst, and no sensible man should cross the limits.. I deal with devout Muslims regarding such matter most of my time. I am no less qualified to make my observations. I am not an unknown person to you. What made you think that you are more 'rational' and 'scholastic' than I am?
2012/1/14 subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>I am sorry to say that you are so much obsessed with a "specific" thing that you see and read every thing selectively. Because of selective reading on your part, you have accused me of apologetic. I have given a half dozen motives, but you are sticking to a single motive: desire to go to paradize. This thought process is so irrational. None of your analyses and explanations goes beyond this narrow focus. This is so wrong when you really want to understand some thing very critical. I hope you will be able to come out of this well and help us see things from broad perspectives. Please be more scholastic.
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] সনাতনধর্মাবলম্বীদেরগো-মাংস সরবরাহকারীদেরবিরুদ্ধেব্যবস্থা নিন
My Dear Mr. Chakravarty
Pouring of bowl of beef on my plate occurred over a dozen times. Friends were not always the offenders. Last time it occurred when I was the chief guest in an occasion, and the host who did it came to know me only hours earlier and he did not seek my consent. These men are of special breed, to get a hundred houries and gellman, they could kill their own parents if they were asked by their religious leaders.
Stop being apologetic on their behalf. Even Mr. Q. A. Rahman, a devout believer in the Islamic scripture is not so.
- Kamal Das
2012/1/12 subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
"None of the examples given above involves any kind of hatred (rather their aims were enlightenement), although the victims (there was a typo and hence edited) may want go to court."---that is what I have already said. You are not saying any thing new. You gave one-sided examples. I brought diverse examples. I am not sure if that prompted you to say, "If you turn the table, you do the math about what could happen to you." In a forum like mukto-mona, we need to examine a case from all directions without being prejudiced. That way we can get an in-depth and big picture. That helps us in understanding human nature and societies with more authenticity. The examples you gave are risky. The risk is that a particular community may be identified as the only trouble makers. And you know that is not true. To make sure that our readers do not misunderstand you, I brought varieties of examples.Let me analyze the case in which Kamal Das's muslim friend poured a bowl of beef curry on his plate. If it was a joke (looking at it innocently and simple-mindedly), it was obviously an uncultured and cruel joke. [New grooms sometimes face this kind of jokes from young women from bride's side.] In-depth analysis may show that it was not a joke at all. It could be a revenge shaped over several generations. The other reason may be that perpetrator might have got sadistic pleasure out of it. This joke definitely got strength from majority identity of Kamal Das's friend. I have mentioned all these motives in my first e-mail. I don't think it has anything to do about the prospect of going to heaven. I agree with Kamal Das that the chance that the reverse thing (pouring a bowl of tortoise curry by a hindu on the plate of a muslim friend) will happen is almost nil as consequences can be very fatal. Muslims in Bangladesh have been historically always respectful of the feelings of hindus. You will however always find exceptions.Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] সনাতনধর্মাবলম্বীদেরগো-মাংস সরবরাহকারীদেরবিরুদ্ধেব্যবস্থা নিন
SC: "I am not sure to whom you are addressing your e-mail."That was a general response, not directed to anyone.SC: "A muslim husband makes his newly married wife eat pork. Are you sure it was a crime? A hindu professor makes his student eat beef. Is he committing a crime?I am not sure why you are asking me these questions. Since you want answers, I have to give you.Two cases, you have cited above, are well-defined violation of liberty and religious rights. Therefore, they are "crimes." The key point is highlighted above for your attention. The victims, in both cases can seek justice, if they want to.Even husband and wife ended up in court for forced sexual encounter. The law is clear on the forced imposition of one's will onto others.JitenFrom: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] সনাতনধর্মাবলম্বীদেরগো-মাংস সরবরাহকারীদেরবিরুদ্ধেব্যবস্থা নিন
I am not sure to whom you are addressing your e-mail. If it is to me, I must say that you ahve not read my entire e-mail. I mentioned some possible reasons or motives why some one can some one else eat some "forbidden" food. You gave all the one-sided examples. I have added variety to it. A muslim husband makes his newly married wife eat pork. Are you sure it was a crime? A hindu professor makes his student eat beef. Is he committing a crime?Finally I have said that the incidence reported in Ittefaq involved a serious crime and the perpetrators must be brought to justice. Please read it again.From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] সনাতনধর্মাবলম্বীদেরগো-মাংস সরবরাহকারীদেরবিরুদ্ধেব্যবস্থা নিন
The question is not that some Hindus eat beef or some Muslims eat pork, it is about whether you should trick or force someone to eat something to he/she does not want to eat. If you eat forbidden fruit willingly, good for you. It's your buisiness. But, if Hindus are fed beef without their knowledge, it's a criminal act. Dr. K. Das has raised an interesting point. If you turn the table, you do the math about what could happen to you.Jiten RoyFrom: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] সনাতনধর্মাবলম্বীদেরগো-মাংস সরবরাহকারীদেরবিরুদ্ধেব্যবস্থা নিন
I am used to taking both beef and pork. The basic point is that if I poured a bowl of pork soup on the plate of any of my Muslim friend, I would probably need the security afforded to Salman Rushdie earlier. By the way, during my stay in U. S. A., the only Hindu I met who did not eat beef came from a remote village. I, for one, don't see any ban in Hindu scripture against eating beef; yet I demand better manners from my Muslim friends than force feeding people something they detest.
2012/1/8 subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Taking revenge, making fun, feat of communalism, sense of majority, sense of superiority, etc. can be explaining factors. Many of them may not be communal acts at all. A professor (a hindu from West Bengal) invited his Ph.D student (a hindu from Bangladesh) for dinner and served him and his family beef. He even did not disclose that it was beef. Bangladeshi hindus are probably less open to "forbidden" foods than the WB hindus. The professor did not care. My atheist muslim friend made his newly married wife eat pork without letting her know that she was eating pork. For the last ten years or so, they are still happily married. In a social gathering when one hindu friend opined (probably jokingly) that onion and beef are equivalent and hence are forbidden, one doctor (orginally from Bangladesh) practcing in America said with strong conviction, "There is no difference between beef and mutton, although ethically it may be wrong to eat either meat." Beef eating hindus sometimes are found to encourage their religious or prejudiced hindu friends to eat beef by saying jokingly, "Come on, you will not lose your hinduism just by eating a burger!"None of the examples given above involves any kind of hatred (rather their aims were enlightenement), although the the perpetrators may want go to court.But the news item published in the Ittefaq is exceptional. It was a grave crime and the criminals must be brought to justice. Motives were probably hatred, communalism, and sense of majority.Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2012 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] সনাতনধর্মাবলম্বীদেরগো-মাংস সরবরাহকারীদেরবিরুদ্ধেব্যবস্থা নিন
I have faced similar situations many times. Devout Muslim friends poured a bowl of beef curry on my plate, their eyes glared like incandescent torches. Muslims of such manners are indeed to be pitied. I would blame their religious leaders for such manners.
2012/1/6 Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
I am trying to understand the psychology behind such acts. I have seen people who eat meat, but not fish. I have seen people who eat fish, but no meat. Why would someone trick you to eat something that you don't want to eat? What do they gain from these ats?I have so many personal experiences of such actions. My first encounter was right after my marriage. My wife just came to Dhaka. One of my very close friends invited us during the Eid. We arrived on time. Food was served. Right before eating, my wife inquired about the meat-curry. They told us that - it was beef. Unfortunately, they had nothing else, except 'Dal (lentil soup).' So, we had to contend ourselves with the Dal-Bhat. Now, the question is - how could they be so sure that we will eat beef? What if we started eating and then inquired about the meat. I have no answers till today.Next, I went to another Muslim friend's house in the USA during another Eid. My entire family was with me. There was a beef-curry on the table. This time, the difference was that - they told us what it was. The problem was - now, we had to decide if we would take it or not; it's an undue pressure, knowing that they were watching us as we were picking items from the table. I understand they like beef, but shouldn't you cook something that your guests might enjoy? I keep wondering.Another incident occurred in a function at a Hindu temple here in the USA. Host ordered goat meat from a restaurant, owned by a Muslim. Instead of goat-curry, they served mixed beef and goat curry. Later on, they revealed that beef was served in that Hindu temple on such and such occasion. They were so proud of their deed that they could not contain the secrecy.I have too many experiences like these. Therefore, I cannot brush these incidents off as some rare incidents. I think they are much too common.If I invite a Muslim family at my house, I will never dream of keeping a pork or tortoise dish in the menu. Such act is a sin in my book. Is that so in Islam? If it is – how could so many people still do it?I tend to believe that – Dr. Kamal Das may be right. This is driven by the religious belief that certain acts bring regious credits. It may be a corollary belief to that of getting credits for converting a non-Muslim. As you know - it is believed in that part of the world that - a Hindu can get converted to Islam simply by eating beef. Therefore, if you can feed beef to a Hindu somehow, you have cracked his Hindu faith. You should get some credit for that. Is this the logic behind the incentive for these acts?People who think food is something that could change one's religious belief are the stupidest people on the face of the earth. It is quite sad how religion has destroyed normal thinking process of billions of highly educated/uneducated people. Religion has seized their normal thought processes; it's insanity. If they had the power to think normally, they could easily find out how stupid their reasoning is. I feel pity for these people.Jiten RoyFrom: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2012 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] সনাতনধর্মাবলম্বীদেরগো-মাংস সরবরাহকারীদেরবিরুদ্ধেব্যবস্থা নিন
Many Muslims feel a thousand steps nearer to paradise when they can feed beef to their Hindu friends, though the ancient Hindu seers regularly ate it.
2012/1/5 Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
সনাতনধর্মাবলম্বীদেরগো-মাংস সরবরাহকারীদেরবিরুদ্ধেব্যবস্থা নিন
লেখক: ইত্তেফাক রিপোর্ট | বৃহস্পতি, ৫ জানুয়ারী ২০১২, ২২ পৌষ ১৪১৮সিলেটের ডিসি ও এসপিকে হাইকোর্টসিলেটের একটি শিক্ষা প্রতিষ্ঠানের পুনর্মিলনী অনুষ্ঠানে খাদ্য হিসেবে সনাতন ধর্মাবলম্বীদের গরুর মাংস সরবরাহকারীদের বিরুদ্ধে ব্যবস্থা নিতে সেখানকার জেলা প্রশাসক, মেট্রোপলিটন পুলিশ কমিশনার, সদর থানার ভারপ্রাপ্ত কর্মকর্তাকে নির্দেশ দিয়েছে হাইকোর্ট। বিচারপতি এএইচএম শামসুদ্দিন চৌধুরী ও বিচারপতি জাহাঙ্গীর হোসেন সেলিমকে নিয়ে গঠিত হাইকোর্টের ডিভিশন বেঞ্চ গতকাল বুধবার এ নির্দেশ দেন। একই সঙ্গে ওই ঘটনায় নিজেদের ভূমিকা ব্যাখ্যা করতে অনুষ্ঠান উদযাপন কমিটির আহ্বায়ক ড. সায়েলা খাতুন, সদস্য সচিব নাজমা বেগম এবং সংশ্লিষ্ট শিক্ষা প্রতিষ্ঠানের প্রধানকে আগামী ১৬ জানুয়ারি আদালতে হাজির হওয়ার নির্দেশ দেয়া হয়েছে। সিলেট সিটি কর্পোরেশনের মেয়র, মেট্রোপলিটন পুলিশ কমিশনার, জেলা প্রশাসক ও সদর থানার ভারপ্রাপ্ত কর্মকর্তাকে একইদিন এ বিষয়ে একটি প্রতিবেদন দাখিল করতে বলা হয়েছে। হাইকোর্টের আদেশে বলা হয়, বাংলাদেশ একটি ধর্মনিরপেক্ষ দেশ। এ দেশের সংবিধানে সকল ধর্মাবলম্বীর সমান অধিকার নিশ্চিত করা হয়েছে। এখানে পুনর্মিলনীর মতো সার্বজনীন অনুষ্ঠানে গরুর মাংস খাওয়ানো হয়েছে। হিন্দু ধর্মাবলম্বীরা গরুর মাংস খান না। সেখানে এ ধরনের অনুষ্ঠানে মানুষকে বিভ্রান্ত করে গরুর মাংস খাওয়ানো মারাত্মক ধরনের অপরাধ। অনুষ্ঠানের আয়োজক ও খাবার পরিবেশনে দায়িত্ব পালনকারীরা এর দায় এড়াতে পারেন না।দৈনিক মানবজমিন পত্রিকায় প্রকাশিত এক প্রতিবেদনে বলা হয়, গত ২৫ ডিসেম্বর সিলেটের অগ্রগামী বালিকা উচ্চ বিদ্যালয় ও কলেজের ১০৮ বছর পূর্তি অনুষ্ঠানে খাসি ও মুরগির কথা বলে সনাতন ধর্মাবলম্বীদের গরুর মাংস খাওয়ানোর ঘটনা ঘটে। এই প্রতিবেদনের ভিত্তিতে অমিত দাস গুপ্ত নামে এক আইনজীবী হাইকোর্টে রিট দায়ের করেন।
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