SChakrabarty: "Think about the black stone in Kaaba around which the musollis walk and the practice of throwing stone. Don't you find elements of tribalism in it?"
SBain: I am not sure what the term should be. What a primitive and foolish practice on the part of the smartest species on Earth! Aren't these people insulting the potential of their own intelligence?
I can't overemphasize for this kind of people, "If you really believe your God is almighty, let him himself punish people who hate him or do not follow him; do not waste your mind and body to establish him. Aren't you doubting his almightiness (your ticket to the hell that you also believe in) by thinking that he needs your help?"
Sukhamaya Bain
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
During Hajj, the pilgrims pelt the Devil with three stones. Or do they really pelt the three 'daughters of Allah' one stone each?
On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 10:15 PM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
If you agree with Joseph Campbell on his opinion that Hinduism is a tribal religion (in its most part-----my addition), you will not say that cow worshipping is silly.Worshipping any thing is a matter of faith. What you worship indicates the level of sophistication of your worship. If my grandma believes that a cow is the abode of 33 crore of gods, how would you stop her to worship a cow? That is her faith. His son does not go that far but worships gods, goddesses, and God. There is no basic difference. Differences are superficial. The former is more tribal than the other.Think about the black stone in Kaaba around which the musollis walk and the practice of throwing stone. Don't you find elements of tribalism in it?From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 5:04 PM
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
KDas: "I find nothing wrong in slaughtering cows in Bangladesh ."SBain: I also find nothing wrong in slaughtering cows in Bangladesh. Not only in Bangladesh, I am sure people like Dr. Das and I do not find anything wrong in slaughtering cows in any country of the world, including India. As I wrote in this forum, I even cook beef in my own kitchen.The point really is, should it be done in an intimidating manner in a public place with utter disrespect or callous indifference for the Hindus? There were occasions in Bangladesh, where cow slaughtering was done in front on an ongoing Hindu religious festival. In fact, the fanaticism and irresponsibility are at such a high level now that the strong stench of rotten blood, flesh, and discards of slaughtered animals lingers in many parts of Dhaka for days, if not weeks, after the Muslim celebration of Eid-ul-Azha.Now, I of course find cow worshiping silly. But do the believers of the silliness of other religions have a basis to say/think that, let alone insult that practice?Sukhamaya BainFrom: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
There is no point to argue with people like Q. A. Rahman, who does not even read Quran regarding the chapters they talk about. All they do is to click on a website written by another ignorant mullah. Nowhere in Quran is mentioned that Ismael was taken for sacrifice, though being the elder son, it was his due. But being illegitimate(born in a woman not married to Abraham), according to their own scripture, he was banished along with his mother to a place far from where Abraham lived. One cannot both banish and sacrifice a son, besides the contemporary God Moloch/Melech/Malik would not accept an illegitimate son as sacrifice. Allah(swt) was not the God of Abraham; according to the Old Testament, it was El Elyon instead, even Isaac and Jacob had different Gods. Modern scholars(e.g.,Prof. Albright) believe, however, God of Abraham was named El Shaddai, literally, a God with breasts.
Read Bible and you would find out that sacrificing the first child was practiced by the Jews at least till they were conquered by Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. Child sacrifice might have happened in India too, they were mostly thrown into water, not roasted for the consumption of the priests. The tantrics/kapaliks killed adults to meditate sitting on their corpse.
I find nothing wrong in slaughtering cows in Bangladesh. The religious Muslims should ensure that they are consuming the cows bought properly, not stolen and/or smuggled from India. I also fail to realize how an animal bought a few days ago from a cowshed becomes 'the most favorite item' to be sacrificed for Allah(swt). Roasting a brand new car could be closer to serving the divine command.
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 5:13 AM, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:
This probably would be my last comments on Q. A. Rahman's posts, at least for a while. Let me go point by point.QAR: "In theory everything is possible. BUT this also means you are "Proposing" to impose your values on others!!"SB: I was not proposing to impose anything on anyone. I was just trying to put some sense into the heads of people who are too brainwashed to find any imperfection, let alone faults, in the religion that they inherited from their parents. I probably should admit, how foolish of me to get into trying an unattainable goal! I am not sure what Mr. Rahman means by "your values." But I would certainly claim to have a superior value system than the average ignorant religious person of any kind.QAR: "There are places in India where Muslims are not "Allowed" to slaughter cow. Last time I checked Bangladesh is not part of India."SB: Good point! Some people in the world do sensible things voluntarily, some people are sensible because they are not allowed to act on their insensibility.QAR: "Still ALL religious sentiments have to be considered. NOT just for one community for long term peace here."SB: How is killing cow a religious sentiment for the Muslims? Their religious books certainly did not ask them to slaughter cow. So, is the sentiment like, "To prove that I am a Muslim, I have to show that I kill, with a lot of fanfare, the animal that the Hindus treat like a god?"QAR: "The fundamental DIFFERENCE in Muslim and Hindu narrative is unlike Hindu tradition God of Abraham (Allah-SWT) did NOT want human's to be sacrificed. While many Hindu gods (According to the tradition) do accept such "Sacrifices"."SB: I do not think a thoroughly brainwashed religious Muslim is in a position to judge the differences between Islam and any other religion. There are differences. Some differences would make Islam better; some differences would make Islam worse. Seriously religious people are too biased to see the faults in their own religion. Unfortunately, I do not have much time to talk about what I call "the primitive wisdoms" in the religions.Sukhamaya BainSent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 3:32 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctlyI'll become crazy if I keep getting such big doses of 'knowledge'.
>>>>
< From member Bain>
Muslims could certainly give up the extra 15% similarity
> out of respect for their neighbors, and out of caring for a harmonious
> coexistence with the neighbors, while following their own religious
> tradition.
>>>>>>>>>> In theory everything is possible. BUT this also means you are "Proposing" to impose your values on others!!
I can understand if the request is to hide the animal from public eye as a good neighbor. But your are actually "Bold" enough the propose this on the whole country.
During my university days, I had a Roommate (Still very good friends) who came from Hindu tradition. I never cooked beef in front of him albeit he gave me permission. That is courtesy and I understand that. But your proposal is only good for mindless debate in this forum but not a "Practical" solution for a whole country.
There are places in India where Muslims are not "Allowed" to slaughter cow. Last time I checked Bangladesh is not part of India. So I think more "Practical" solution can be reached. Otherwise our people would think a minority values have been imposed on us. Also beef is cheaper in Bangladesh (Because Indian Hindus have no problem selling cows to Muslims who would make beef curry out of it!) and a good source of protein. It would deprive many poor people from getting their protein intake. Still ALL religious sentiments have to be considered. NOT just for one community for long term peace here.
As far as I know, the pre-Islamic prophet Ibrahim
> was ready to sacrifice his son Ishmail to express his true devotion to God.
> The Hindus used to sacrifice little children to please their God by offering
> the purest/most sinless thing. Of course, this kind of human sacrifices
> would be seriously prosecuted in today's world, because we are civilized
> enough to realize that the person that is to be offered/sacrificed has a
> right to this world, which even his/her father can not take away; devotion
> to God or not.
>>>>>>>>> This is a good point. The fundamental DIFFERENCE in Muslim and Hindu narrative is unlike Hindu tradition God of Abraham (Allah-SWT) did NOT want human's to be sacrificed. While many Hindu gods (According to the tradition) do accept such "Sacrifices".
The Muslim story shows us Allah (SWT) want our love and devotion towards Him but NOT our sons!!
Again NOT here to criticize other views here BUT need to point out this FUNDAMENTAL difference in narratives.
Hope this will be some help those who seek to understand different point of views.
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