Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam

The following comments are mostly on Mr. Subimal Chakrabarty's comments below:

 

Taking guidance from religious books and following them blindly are vastly different. Guidance is flexible, can be modified, and does not stifle human intelligence. Blind faith is adamant, not amenable to improvements.

 

Doing good things without knowing that they are in some religious books is good. I have seen many religious people who talk about good things in their religious books. For most of those talks, I can see that they are simple human common sense, and do not require following any religion.

 

The problem with religions is that in many places they preach hatred and injustice, and what looks like hatred and injustice. I do not think most people have, or should have, time to dig into the context though which the apparent hatred/injustice could be justified to be sane. Don't the humans have better things to do with their brain?

 

Now, a bit about Mr. Q. A. Rahman's agreement with my comments that he highlighted below.

 

It is interesting and refreshing that Mr. Rahman has agreed with me. The implications of my statements are quite clear. For the advancement of human civilization, all religions need to be converted to "something else" by removing worthless and often harmful/degrading restrictions/preachings. Not only that, that "something else" needs to be redefined with the progress of the human civilization. People who are too restricted by their religions will continue to remain inferior in many respects; all their own making.

 

Sukhamaya Bain

 

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From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam

 

SB: In reality, the advancement of the human civilization has been happening through successive redefining of that "something else." Interestingly though, people seem to be too hooked on to their religious identities, while they actually follow "something else" over their forefathers' religions.

>>>>>>> Agree. :-) Very good observation indeed. SC:Although Dharma-shastra or other books like it are not read by the Hindus, they still hold some other books like the Geeta, the Chandi, the Mahabharata, and Ramayanan as scred and use them for general guidelines or guidelines on moral and ethical issues as well as for purely religious issues to earn piety. These are some of the books that many Hindu families have among their belongings.   >>>>>>> Well said again. Ironically the religious text which most similarities with Islam and Hinduism is "Ved/Veda". It speaks clearly about "Concept of God" and not too far from what Islam teaches about "Concept of God". The problem is Veda is not accessible to common Hindus and until recently most of them were not easy to understand (It became easier after some wise people decided to translate them). An Indian interfaith scholar did some work to present them to Muslims and non-Muslims as well.

1. "na tasya pratima asti"
    "There is no image of Him."
    [Yajurveda 32:3]

2. "shudhama poapvidham"
    "He is bodyless and pure."
    [Yajurveda 40:8]

3. "Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"
    "They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink
    deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti."       
    [Yajurveda 40:9]

verse of Yajurveda:

"Na tasya Pratima asti"
"There is no image of Him."
[Yajurveda 32:3]

Anyway, I enjoyed discussion by both members and enjoying learning from both of you. Thank you!! Shalom!

-----Original Message----- From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Apr 20, 2012 4:45 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam

 

A little clarification may be needed. What the Quoran is to the Muslims, Manu's Dharmashastra is not exactly the same thing to the Hindus. It is true that most pf the Hindus have not heard about this sacred book, but they are still following it unconsciously to varied extents. Besides this book, they are following other Smriti-Shastra books also written subsequently by many authorities including Raghunandan. Books were written during Ballal Sen's rule of Bengal. Hindus are still following edicts on caste system and caste dealings as well as dealings with women elaborated in these sacred books, although with education, political reforms, economic independence of women, etc. these are gradually becoming the matters of the past. But we have to admit that we still have to a go a long long way before we can stop. 

Let me give one example from rural Bengal as I saw it about 40 years ago. When a person is suffering from a terminal disease which is causing great sufferings to him, he could go to a Brahmin with degree in scriptures called pandit to get a piece of paper called "byabastha-potro" by paying him some money. The pandit would certify to God for the diseased person for one of the two alternatives----cure fully or die soonest so that there is no suffering.     

Although Dharma-shastra or other books like it are not read by the Hindus, they still hold some other books like the Geeta, the Chandi, the Mahabharata, and Ramayanan as scred and use them for general guidelines or guidelines on moral and ethical issues as well as for purely religious issues to earn piety. These are some of the books that many Hindu families have among their belongings.   

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam

 

The exchange below between Mr. Subimal Chakrabarty and Mr. Q. A. Rahman is very interesting. Two opposing views: 1) religion should not be too restrictive, 2) without the restrictions, 'religions lose it's (sic) own identity and universality'.

 

The way I see it, we are not talking about starting a new religion here. Thus, it is not for us to say what a religion should or should not be. We have to look at each religion the way it is. If we think a religion is too restrictive, and if we do not like that, then we probably should not follow that. We can extract what is good in the religion in question; discarding what is not good in it. I personally want to do this with every religion that I have time to read about, irrespective of what religion my parents or grandparents had, with absolutely no malice toward any religion.

 

Universality of religions! I do not think there is such a thing universality of any religion; whether it is like a mind-enslaving dogma or like a culture/tradition.

 

However, I agree with Mr. Rahman on the first part of the quoted part of point 2 above. Without the restrictions that a religion imposes, it would not be that religion. It would be something else. Of course, people who rely on their natural human intelligence would probably prefer that "something else" over that religion.

 

In reality, the advancement of the human civilization has been happening through successive redefining of that "something else." Interestingly though, people seem to be too hooked on to their religious identities, while they actually follow "something else" over their forefathers' religions. For example, most people who identify themselves as Hindus do not care to know, let alone follow, what Manu's 'Dharmashastra' said.

 

Sukhamaya Bain

 

==============================================

From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam

 

There are religion-specific cultural differences for sure. But they are very minor differences. Bengali Hindu culture and Bengali Mislim culture are almost synonymous. That is reflected in  our literature, music, performance arts, arts and paintings, food habits, and above all in our national aspirations. We belong to a common heritage and have a common tradition. 

A practicing Muslim and a practicing Hindu have a common Bengali culture and that that is reflected in our common and joint cultural programs. 

Most of what you have said refers to differences in religious belief systems. They are not cultural matters. They exist in every religion. 

I believe in freedom of a human being (soul). Nothing should be coercive to it---neither a state nor a religion. The human must not be micromanaged. It needs broader guidelines though and sense of common goals as well for peaceful coexistence and advancement. Values preached to him should be universal as much as possible. Sage Manu's "Dharmashastra" is no more a complete code of life. The world has changed a lot and it is constantly changing. Our sages had long and clear vision. But there was a limit to how far they could see. That's why we need new thoughts and at least new interpretations. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2012, at 1:08 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:

 

Hindu culture in Kerala is not exactly same as Hindu culture in Bengal

>>>>>>>>> You are right to some extend. Even in Islam the sub-cultures are different based on region. HOWEVER Islam gave us some universal laws. Here in that respect Islam is different than Hindu "Tradition". I call Hindu "Culture" a more like "Tradition" than religion.

Because in classic concept of religion, it is well structured. For example Judaism has dress codes similar to Islam. Historical Christians used to have dress closer to practicing Muslims. Christianity has "Evolved" and gotten more like Hinduism now a days. So you will see US churches talking about a "Black Jesus" in Afro-American areas, you will see image of Jesus in Mexico making it look like he was Hispanic and "Classic" Euro Christians adopted Jesus to their own standard (Blue eyed blond guy!!). I had a lively discussion with a devout Christian from south about that. I said Jesus was a Jew (As per Bible) and he was from Palestine (His birth place is part of Palestine), so he probably looked more like an Arab Palestinian than a blond guy from Germany!!

Logically one cannot accept "Local culture" and claim to practice an authentic religion for everything.

Hinduism varies a great deal from regions. Even Hindus who migrated in western world slowly but surely changed some of their traditional practices (Ganges is far away, pundits are scares etc).

As per Islamic concept, our Maker gave us a COMPLETE code of life.Unlike most prominent religions it did spell out religious views in a very structured way.

I have to agree with member Hanan that, some of what goes on during "Nobo Borsho" goes against traditional Islamic ideals. Islam does not prohibit us to accept local cultures but practicing Muslims know the limits given by our Maker. In Finland nudity is well accepted in that society. Even incest type relations is quite common in that culture. A practicing Muslim will never embrace those aspects of Finish "Culture". Maybe an Iraqi Arab will change his Arab garbs for suits but it is unimaginable for a "Practicing Muslim" to forgo commandments by Allah (SWT).

So what member Roy and Subimal said is partly correct but as per Islamic ideals we have our limits in how much we can accept of any culture.

What I want to say I'd that a religion must not be too restrictive; it must not spoon feed what to wear and what not to  eat or drink. It should rather focus on the values that are universal.

>>>>>>>>Those who embrace a concept of deity, they expect religions to tell them to say what they can eat and what is not allowed to eat. I understand some of us are not fan of such restrictions. However without those 'Restrictions" or guidelines religions lose it's own identity and universality as well.

That is why you will see people from Pakistan play very good Cricket but they don't drink beer (At least the practicing ones!) like Australians or Brits.

In other words for Muslims, we may enjoy some fanfare in moderation but don't expect any Muslim with some sense to embrace IPL cheer leaders type of dance for "Nobo Borsho" anytime soon. ;-)

I do not see any problem with Rabindra Sangits and classic bangla cultural aspect in some cases. "Anandaloke mongol aloke birajo satya sundoro...." has been a favorite of mine for a long time.

As long people understand and respect sensitivities of "Practicing Muslims" in such areas, we can get along nicely.

Shalom!

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