--- On Mon, 5/7/12, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter ....... To: "mukto-mona" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, May 7, 2012, 12:07 PM
Mr. Q Rahman gives us great wisdom from his 'religious' knowledge almost every time he posts. At some point one would thin that he is striving to be the greatest proselytizer of Islam. My question is: Did he acquire all this vast knowledge from Madrassah education that he received in the past? Does Mr. Rahman himself, or his sisters, brothers, cousins, friends and relatives send their children to Madrassahs for "authentic teachings of Islam"?
Unless the honest answer to the question is an unqualified YES Mr. Q Rahman is resorting to a false, malicious propaganda. The fact on the ground level is that for the benefit of future generations of Muslims in the subcontinent
Madrassahs should be BANNED from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.
The traditional 'moktob' on Fridays that give 'ampara' lessons to little boys and girls at the local mosques in the village have been sufficient religious education for centuries. In the cities parents can send their children to a weekend 'diniyat' school or something to pick up skills to read the Qur'an. Parents can provide the needed religious education for their children (just as Mr. Rahman's parents did) without thousands and thousands and thousands of Madrassahs all over the country. The Muslims of Bangladesh are 'naturally' better quality Muslims than their berathars and sisters in the Kingdom of Jahiliya (otherwise known as Saudi Arabia).
There should be proper Religious Seminaries or especial Madrassahs where Imams and Khadems of mosques should receive their education.
If you cannot see the politics behind the establishment of these educationally backward, harmful and useless madrassahs then you ARE part of the propaganda. This has nothing to do with religion.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com From: subimal@yahoo.com Date: Sun, 6 May 2012 11:45:45 -0700 Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......
1. I will use the word "karma" as a religious or philosophical concept. The said word has very deep meanings.
2. Atheists (example, the Stalin era in the USSR) may have agenda that can prompt them to kill and torture. I hope I have properly understood the meaning of the statement "Without communal agenda, atheists have no reason to abandon good karmas". Killings and torture by many "religious" dictators (example, Saddam) were or are not communally motivated. The holocausts that descended on the Jews (WW II) and Hindus (1971) were mostly communal in nature. In these two cases Hitler and Yahiya Khan were the villains.
3. Hatred, discrimination, persecution, and killing are rooted in scriptures. It depends on the ruler how he interprets and implements it. AL (I prefer using AL to BAL--it is my problem, Mr. Rahaman, as the sense of sin is in my mind as I am prejudiced with the word BAL) gave us a great constitution although there was hardly any atheists in that party. Nazibullah and Mollah Omar had diametrically opposite agenda---the former one's being far more progressive and humanitarian than that of the latter's. Even a Taliban member who fought against Soviet ocuupation does not want Taliban to come back to power with the same agenda (closing girls' school for example).
4. In my judgement (following Campbell), both Islam and Hinduism originally were tribal in nature. Although the rituals have mostly remained triabal in nature (comparatively more dominating in Hinduism), both the religions are getting more and more universal. Given the multi-cultural, multi-racial, and multi-religious interactive and interdependent pluralistic societies, there is no way out. Isolated and closed societies are suicidal.
5. I do not believe in divine authorities. Every thing we see in scriptures are man made and were captured in the minds and hearts of the sages. Since they are man made and hence are bound to be time- and place-specific, only man is legitimately entitled to challenge, modify, and update them. I always emphasize on the word "reinterpretation". I find the concept of "reincarnation" or "Avatar" interesting and instructive. If we are afraid to challenge, reinterpret, and update, we are doomed to live a life that is not "modern". The concept of "Avatar" guarantees the progress of the society as you do not get stuck to a particular Avatar and successive Avatrs are supposed to be more and more progressive.
6. It does not matter when eating beef was forbidden, it is still a fact that to a practicing Hindu, the cow is sacred and eating beef is against his religion. I have seen many Hindus not following this religious edict thanks to the freedom and rationality that they use to break the barrier to enjoy the cheap resources of the world a little bit more. Christians in general are more open in this matter.
7. I am aware that Mr. Rahman is not advocation for implementing Islamic rule in Bangladeh. But I wnt to emphasize that I am dead against the so called "Islamic" rule in Bangladesh. I like 1972 constitution which has already been raped several times. I believe in the principle of "separation of the church from the state". Even I do not buy the idea that a state (Bangladesh) get pro-actively involved with an international organization (OIC) in declaring a city (Dhaka) as the capital (Dhaka) of a particular religious (Islamic) culture of a continent (Asia) for a particular year (1212). I am not aware of the terms of reference that Bangladesh will have to follow in case of capital of Islamic culture matter. In my opinion it should kept private and not a state affair. It should however be allright for the PM who happens to be the head of the government of a Muslim majority country to become the chief guest in any occasion related to this. But what can we do? Our dependence on the Islamic countries is still unlimited.
8. I fully agree that the improvemnt in quality of Islamic education will minimize the unhappy incidences like the one that has recently happened in a madrasa. Even a several decades ago Greek philosophies used to be taught in the madrasas of the subcontinent. I am not sure what they have now in the curriculum. Our governments have neither commitments nor resources to improve the system. They do not have the courage either to undertake such a program.
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net> To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 6, 2012 4:57 AM Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......
the, ists, without communal agenda, have no reason to abandon good-karmas. Also, in my view, there is another class of people who serve God through good-deeds only, devoid of any religious ideology have no incentive to deviate from their good-karmas.
>>>>>>>>>> I am sure disorder in Bangladesh bothers you enough to write about it. It is the same for me. However some of your assumptions are probably based on observation not based on teachings of religion. Rightly you pointed out that without communal agenda, atheists have no reason to abandon good-karmas.
Guess you "Assumed" that religion dictates us to work against people of other faiths and no faiths. Judging by some so called religious parties I cannot blame you for such assumptions but that is NOT what Islam (As a Muslim I just want to talk about Islam in my post) is all about. Unlike most prominent faiths, Islam does have a Global outlook. The criminal laws are mostly same for people of all faiths. It does not favor Muslims over non-Muslims. In civil cases there are differences (Like laws of inheritance). The main problem is so called religious parties often focus on laws that favors their own ideologies (Frequently it has a magical relationship with going to power and grow influence in politics). Muslims cannot pick and chose laws of Allah (SWT). They should try their level best to practice as much as possible. Which includes respecting "Rights" (Haq) of other people. Islamic "Communal agendas" is mainly talking about one God (Not forcing others to this ideology but TALKING about), establish rights of all people, secure peace for the mass. As I mentioned in a recent post BAL was flexible about it's socialist agenda and it helped our country in a big way. We cannot be slaves of "Processes" only, we have to ensure we are following processes properly. For most Muslims in Bangladesh, we are largely "Tradition bound" not religion bound. Guess you can say the same about Hindus as well. As one Hindu scholar mentioned, there is nothing in scriptures of "Sanatana Dharma" prohibiting it's followers from consuming beef but it was a popular movement to "Respond" to Jainism. So Hindus adopted some of the theologies of Jains and stopped eating beef. I feel if we can improve the "Quality" of Islamic education in Bangladesh, it will make our country a better place to live. fortunately there are some bright people who are working hard in educating people about authentic teachings of Islam and hopefully positively impact our country. Shalom! -----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, May 6, 2012 7:45 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......
Communists and god-fearing people are ideologically driven people. They have done a lot of bad karmas (deeds) in this world, purely based on their ideological biases. Much more atrocities are being committed everyday by these people than those who only believe in good-deeds without ideological influences.
Those who are ideological people are prone to distort the definition of good-deeds in favor of their ideological biases. When someone opposes or challenges their ideological doctrines, they will not hesitate to throw away good-deeds out of the window and try to make him/her conform to the doctrines at the cost of good-karmas. That's what happened to these innocent girls. Religious-communality is another example of it.
Athe, ists, without communal agenda, have no reason to abandon good-karmas. Also, in my view, there is another class of people who serve God through good-deeds only, devoid of any religious ideology have no incentive to deviate from their good-karmas. I prefer these two groups of people much more than any ideological-slaves, pretending to be good-guys.
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter ....... To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, May 5, 2012, 3:10 PM
Religion is under the control of those so called 'misguided ones,' and nobody knows what they will come up with next. Nobody can touch any of those misguided ones.
>>>>>>>>>>> I see no reason why we cannot punish "Misguided ones". NO good reason at all. It is one thing to demonstrate or discuss hellfire or afterlife, it is sadistic to punish a child like this. Misguided people are derailed people. They can belong to secular, religious or any political parties. God knows all parties have their "Fair share" of misguided people. Maybe if you are not comfortable with "Religion" which motivates you to think, if we could remove religion, it would have solved all of our problems, sadly it is an illusion only.
Once upon a time our forefathers thought if they could remove the colonial Brits from our lands, it will be all right again. They were wrong. The next generation thought if they get out of Pakistan, we can return to "Golden Bengal", we are still far from that goal (After 40 years since we exited from Pakistan concept).
Recent reports tell me that even Awami League government is opting for promoting more religion (Islam), and less secularism, in peoples' lives.
>>>>>>>> Awami League came with a mandate of people of this country. If you feel we still have high level of minority persecution or it is not "Secular" enough as per your expectation, as a voter YOU have to ask that question. In a "Free" country, you have the choice to vote for another party of choice if you feel they failed you. Had you been discussing Pakistan, I would have agreed with you about so called "Religious cartel". If religious people have any street credit, they earned it by doing good. In fact MOST religious people are very good for our country. If you feel passionately, it is the ONLY major problem in our country, FEEL FREE to present an alternative view. Post independent Awami League played with socialist concept and it FAILED badly. Corruption destroyed our jute and textile industries for a generation. I am glad Awami League of 21st century realized their past mistakes and taken a more "Market friendly" approach towards economy and this flexibility got some success in private industries. Secular communist government failed to free people of West Bengal so badly that, today Mamata is having a political fight with Delhi to rearrange her debts of last three decades. Those "Populist" policies destroyed West Bengal. As I stated earlier, when we will be able to transfer our country where everyone and everything has to follow laws of the land, our people will be truly FREE. Today we are still far from being a democratic country where our governments are transparent. While I really feel where you are coming from, I do not think "Secular education" will help us much. Neither our people want to live in a society where religion has no place in it. You can randomly ask around Hindus, Muslims, Christians or smaller tribes etc. We are basically tradition bound people not even follow religious scriptures properly. Which enables people in power to abuse religion for their own personal interests. We still beat the crap out of people to settle our issues, we do not take them to police station. We still use courts of laws to harass and "Trouble" good people most of the time rather than seeking justice in courts of law. This is the fundamental issue of our country. Until we can make that vital transformation, no secular system will help us. My two cents.......
-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, May 5, 2012 8:23 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter .......
I know pretty soon I will hear from people in this forum to tell me that religion is not to blame for any of these acts; only a few 'misguided ones' are to blame for this barbaric act. Those who will praise religion will perhaps shout out from their cozy sofas to punish the people involved, etc., etc., but nothing will change - because they have no power to change anything. Religion is under the control of those so called 'misguided ones,' and nobody knows what they will come up with next. Nobody can touch any of those misguided ones. I think a year or two back, we heard about the 'stoning of women' in Bangladesh resulting from a 'fotwa,' awarded by a mollah. Media buried the incident as quickly as they could. I am not sure anything happened to the orchestrator of that incident, and I am sure nothing will happen to the individual(s) involved in this incident also.
Recent reports tell me that even Awami League government is opting for promoting more religion (Islam), and less secularism, in peoples' lives. This is how strong the religious cartels are. I feel pity for the innocent regular folks of Bangladesh, who are, basically, slaves of the religious cartels. It appears that there is no one to liberate them. They need authentic secular education, and there is no leader to provide that. So, they suffer, and remain impoverished ....
From: Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> Subject: [mukto-mona] RE: Child Abuse under Islamic cover : Fire of hell is hotter ....... To: Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:21 PM
Let us think deeply about the future of our citizenry and BAN political madrassahs that are there only to indoctrinate economically deprived underclass.. Only those certified Madrassahs will be allowed where top quality religious education is seriously pursued. All other countries and religions have religious schools where future priests study for a lifetime dedicated to the service of God. Why can't we have something like that? Can we organize a protest march against Madrassah cruelty?
Madrasa teacher Jesmin Akhterdemonstrates lesson of hell to 14 girls
Thursday, May 3, 2012
Front Page
The hot spatula mark on a girl's leg inflicted by her madrasa teacher to give her a bit of experience of the hell for not offering prayers regularly. 14 girls were made victim of this brutal idea. Photo: Courtesy ATN BanglaStaff Correspondent
A teacher of a girls' madrasa on Tuesday seared legs of 14 students with a hot spatula in her punitive attempt to make them feel the "agony of fire in hell".
The girls, aged between eight and 12, underwent the hellish experience as they were "irregular" in their prayers. They are students of Talimul Quran Mahila Madrasa at Namashyampur in the capital's Kadamtali area.
The victims received treatment at local clinics for the injuries on their left legs.
Teacher Jesmin Akhter went into hiding after father of a victim had filed a case, said Sub-inspector Shaker Mohammad Jubair of Kadamtali police.
Abdul Jalil, father of victim Jannatul Ferdous, 8, told The Daily Star that after a 10-day holiday the madrasa reopened on Tuesday and his daughter attended the class at 8:00am.
Informed by another guardian, he rushed to the institution around 1:30pm and met a gathering of protesting locals.
Jalil quoting his daughter said Jesmin inflicted burns on the 14 students at around 8:30am for not being "regular" in offering their prayers during the vacation.
During her act of "punishment" Jesmin was quoted as asking the victims if they knew the severity of the fire in hell. If they didn't say their prayers regularly, they would experience such torment in hell, she added.
Jalil said the teacher kept her spatula on a burning gas oven adjacent to the classroom and each time burned the legs of three students.
The madrasa is housed on the first floor of a two storey building. Of the four rooms in the flat, the teacher lives in one room with her family while one room is used as the office and the rest for classes. Students attend their classes here sitting on the floor.
Jesmin also forced the wounded students to continue with the classes untill 1:15pm when mother of a student went to the madrasa with meal for her daughter, police said.
Agitating locals immediately besieged the madrasa, but police intervened and brought the situation under control, said SI Jubair.
Neither guardians nor the police could confirm immediately whether the madrasa is approved by the government.
