We have discussed everything from Philosophy to Origin of life and I have not seen any cogent argument from you except your more of God and religiosity. I find it is odd you questioning other people' expertise?
-SD
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
-SD
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
Well I was responding to member Roy and Member Bain was responding to the post as if I was talking to him.
You are welcome to participate or NOT participate in a forum that is "Public".
It is quite possible you are good at what you do. However the topic we discuss here is probably not your "Area of expertise".
Shalom!
You are welcome to participate or NOT participate in a forum that is "Public".
It is quite possible you are good at what you do. However the topic we discuss here is probably not your "Area of expertise".
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 8:35 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 8:35 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
I am going to ignore most of what QAR wrote below.
Let me just make one point. Dr. Jiten Roy and Dr. Sukhamaya Bain are personally known to quite a few contributors of this forum. QAR can search the internet for the two names; it would not be difficult to find out what these two gentlemen do in their professional life. I have been calling this fellow Q. A. Rahman, and he never objected; but I have no clue as to what Q and A stand for; nor do I have any idea about his professional life. I do not think searching for Q, A and R would give me any idea. And I do not really care about his personal life. But the point is, before making a foolish statement like 'Not sure if member Bain and Roy are the same person or not' in a public forum, people should put some minimum effort to find out.
In any case, I know that debating with people like QAR and Farida Majid is a wastage of time; and I do some of it when I have some time to kill.
Sukhamaya Bain
========================================
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
Not sure if member Bain and Roy are the same person or not.
Anyway, Lets take a stab at it...
Anyway, Lets take a stab at it...
Talking about the Japanese violence in WW-2, it was in spite of their religion, not because of it. That is not the same as in many other places, where hatred and violence are because of religions, not in spite of them.
>>>>>>>>>> Statements were made (By another person and you decided to "Answer") that, some other faiths are not seen as violent. Consistently a relation with violence and religion is drawn. NOW when I have shown people from other faiths are fully capable (Or not faith!) of destroying others, now I see this "Back tracking effort". (If you are another person trying to speak behalf of member Roy) PLEASE read the comments and understand the context FIRST. This was given as an "EXAMPLE" to poke at a flawed assumption floated earlier.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fast growing population can be a social issue BUT it is not the major factor behind violence. Lack of law and order, lack of leadership is the main reason behind ethnic violence. Lack of political will in India has taken a toll on it's population. It pitted fellow citizens against one other over false choices.
Bangladesh do have a population issue BUT it is not "THE ISSUE" for us. Our political and judicial structure fast becoming the major concern for people in and out of Bangladesh. Tons of companies are lining up to invest here but our lack of infrastructure and lack of political will is stopping them. It is interesting to note that, these world class manufacturers are lining up to invest in Bangladesh because we have enough head counts to support these projects. So if we had shortage of labor, they would have treated us that same way Ujbekistan is treated. NO SHOW!!
Population management should be our concern beside population control.
On the other hand, Dhaka remained a target for politicians to make money out of the city. But few care to make significant improvement to the city. Population surely is a problem and I have no reason to avoid it!!
Shalom!
It is not surprising that people like Mr. Rahman would avoid talking about how following of religions is contributing to the uncontrolled population growth in many parts of our subcontinent, including Bangladesh and Assam. Uncontrolled growth in population is a factor for discontent in our subcontinent, irrespective of what religious group is in the minority in what specific region.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fast growing population can be a social issue BUT it is not the major factor behind violence. Lack of law and order, lack of leadership is the main reason behind ethnic violence. Lack of political will in India has taken a toll on it's population. It pitted fellow citizens against one other over false choices.
Bangladesh do have a population issue BUT it is not "THE ISSUE" for us. Our political and judicial structure fast becoming the major concern for people in and out of Bangladesh. Tons of companies are lining up to invest here but our lack of infrastructure and lack of political will is stopping them. It is interesting to note that, these world class manufacturers are lining up to invest in Bangladesh because we have enough head counts to support these projects. So if we had shortage of labor, they would have treated us that same way Ujbekistan is treated. NO SHOW!!
Population management should be our concern beside population control.
Even where there is no minority-majority issue, too many people is a problem. For example, recently a survey found Dhaka to be the most unlivable big city in the world. It is unlivable to all people irrespective of religions.
>>>>>>>>>> It is interesting to note, Kolkata is also an overpopulated city but people in it actually follow the laws. Laws are enforced regularly. They had leaders who had long term vision to improve the city and they made significant progress in improving kolkata. On the other hand, Dhaka remained a target for politicians to make money out of the city. But few care to make significant improvement to the city. Population surely is a problem and I have no reason to avoid it!!
Shalom!
-----Original Message----- From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Aug 26, 2012 8:31 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
All value judgments are opinions, and it goes without saying. What is the reason for saying it? Trying to disparage the judgment? I am not bothered by that. I am sure, when a brainwashed religious person calls my judgment 'your opinion', it does not lessen the value of my judgment to rational people who have a sense of judging as opposed to blindly believing.
I have tried to avoid specifying any religion for criticism, and used the term "God-fearing religions." However, Mr. Rahman wants to talk about his religion. So let me be a little bit of specific here. Based upon my unbiased reading of Islam, I think I have better things to do than spending more time studying or understanding the status of women in that religion.
Talking about the Japanese violence in WW-2, it was in spite of their religion, not because of it. That is not the same as in many other places, where hatred and violence are because of religions, not in spite of them.
It is not surprising that people like Mr. Rahman would avoid talking about how following of religions is contributing to the uncontrolled population growth in many parts of our subcontinent, including Bangladesh and Assam. Uncontrolled growth in population is a factor for discontent in our subcontinent, irrespective of what religious group is in the minority in what specific region.
In Assam as well as in the Chittagong Hill Tracts, for example, the uncontrolled growth of Bangalees and their encroachments of tribal territories are causing problems. The difference between Assam and the CHT is that in the latter the encroachers have the backing of a powerful government, which is lacking in the former.
Even where there is no minority-majority issue, too many people is a problem. For example, recently a survey found Dhaka to be the most unlivable big city in the world. It is unlivable to all people irrespective of religions.
The bottom line is, the population growth needs to be controlled, following religion or not.
Sukhamaya Bain
==============================================
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
when Prophet was engaged in many wars. In a war, innocent people get killed. There is no denying about it. Then I realize that - devils are in the details of the term "Innocent Person." Who are those innocent persons? I can exclude almost everyone from that category. Therefore, this verse bears very little significance to me.
>>>>>>>>>> The last messenger of Allah (PBUH) did engage in many wars. However, he worked very hard to avoid any conflicts for first thirteen years since he received revelation from God. When people of Mecca still wanted to kill him, he preferred peace and moved out of Mecca. He relocated to the city of Medina (The then Yathrib) to avoid any bloodshed. When people of Mecca wanted to attack the city of Medina, he fought to defend the city and people who lived in it. Out of 23 recorded conflicts/wars he took part, in most cases (22 times) his people were attacked. In one case when some leaders of Mecca wanted to sell properties of Muslims in that city, he decided to intercept and protect their properties.
Now during out times, when Pakistani army killed thousands of people during 26th March, some brave Bengalis decided to fight back ( It is a right given by God to all humanity). What you are doing here is showing how little you know about history (Albeit I have given very detailed explanations with solid references).
I don't mind criticism but if you want to form an opinion about something, you ought to invest some time to know about the topic. What you have done here is blaming our freedom fighters to "Killing" Pakistani army during 1971. With all due respect, it is very ignorant and absurd opinion of the topic.
the no God-fearing religion, Buddhism, looks superior to the God-fearing ones.
>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your "Opinions". However facts on ground (Burma/Myanmar) says, they (Buddhism) are equally capable of persecuting innocent people. So maybe your opinions about religion needs to be re-examined by you!!
Also Japanese violence during the second world war is well documented. Ask any Koreans and they will tell you plenty more about Japanese "Contribution" for Koreans during the same time. So one more time, it seems like it is a mere personal opinion which is not supported by facts on ground!!
>>>>>>>>>>> While I disagree with your "Opinions", I can see where you are coming from and at least this opinion have some relevance with reality.
Now if you do some research, you will see India (With around 85% Hindu population) aborts more "girl infants/fetus" than any nation around the globe. This is no less than mass murder being committed and tolerated by Indians every day!!
Still I don't blame Hinduism for it. It is greedy people who thinks status of girl is less than a man decides fates of these souls. Reality says, these people (Most of the time) are NOT driven by religion but their greed.
Similarly, status of women in Islam is a vast subject. I encourage you to study it BEFORE you pass your "Opinion" about this often misunderstood topic. In the spirit of fairness, I agree with you that, many ignorant/greedy Muslims do abuse women. It is NOT restricted to Muslims only but a global problem covering people of all faiths and no faiths.
Lastly, thank you for your kind offer to "Educate" me. I am always up for knowledge. However in this case, maybe you ought invest some time to educate yourself on the topic to "UNDERSTAND" Islamic point of view.
Also note, women probably enjoy more freedom in the western countries. Still most of the new reverts/converts to Islam are women. Maybe you should ask some of them about it and appreciate their "Freedom" to pick a religion. :-)
, I have no doubt that lack of birth control is a factor there.
>>>>>>>> Really? Birth control was the issue? Not hate mongering, fear mongering or law and order issue?
I just want to know how to you expect us (The common people ) to reconcile that facts that, you care deeply about minority oppression in Bangladesh and blame birth control for minority oppressions in India? Is is a moral or rational stand? I leave it out to reads of this forum........
Any idea, Mr. Rahman, how the religious beliefs are exacerbating/relieving this problem?
>>>>>>>>>> What's next? You are going to blame corruption of current administration on Islam??
May knowledge, logic, fairness, justice guide you.
Shalom!!
>>>>>>>>>> The last messenger of Allah (PBUH) did engage in many wars. However, he worked very hard to avoid any conflicts for first thirteen years since he received revelation from God. When people of Mecca still wanted to kill him, he preferred peace and moved out of Mecca. He relocated to the city of Medina (The then Yathrib) to avoid any bloodshed. When people of Mecca wanted to attack the city of Medina, he fought to defend the city and people who lived in it. Out of 23 recorded conflicts/wars he took part, in most cases (22 times) his people were attacked. In one case when some leaders of Mecca wanted to sell properties of Muslims in that city, he decided to intercept and protect their properties.
Now during out times, when Pakistani army killed thousands of people during 26th March, some brave Bengalis decided to fight back ( It is a right given by God to all humanity). What you are doing here is showing how little you know about history (Albeit I have given very detailed explanations with solid references).
I don't mind criticism but if you want to form an opinion about something, you ought to invest some time to know about the topic. What you have done here is blaming our freedom fighters to "Killing" Pakistani army during 1971. With all due respect, it is very ignorant and absurd opinion of the topic.
the no God-fearing religion, Buddhism, looks superior to the God-fearing ones.
>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your "Opinions". However facts on ground (Burma/Myanmar) says, they (Buddhism) are equally capable of persecuting innocent people. So maybe your opinions about religion needs to be re-examined by you!!
Also Japanese violence during the second world war is well documented. Ask any Koreans and they will tell you plenty more about Japanese "Contribution" for Koreans during the same time. So one more time, it seems like it is a mere personal opinion which is not supported by facts on ground!!
In an attempt to educate people like Mr. Rahman, let me note that most God-fearing and 'complete code' religions have been unjust to women.
>>>>>>>>>>> While I disagree with your "Opinions", I can see where you are coming from and at least this opinion have some relevance with reality.
Now if you do some research, you will see India (With around 85% Hindu population) aborts more "girl infants/fetus" than any nation around the globe. This is no less than mass murder being committed and tolerated by Indians every day!!
Still I don't blame Hinduism for it. It is greedy people who thinks status of girl is less than a man decides fates of these souls. Reality says, these people (Most of the time) are NOT driven by religion but their greed.
Similarly, status of women in Islam is a vast subject. I encourage you to study it BEFORE you pass your "Opinion" about this often misunderstood topic. In the spirit of fairness, I agree with you that, many ignorant/greedy Muslims do abuse women. It is NOT restricted to Muslims only but a global problem covering people of all faiths and no faiths.
Lastly, thank you for your kind offer to "Educate" me. I am always up for knowledge. However in this case, maybe you ought invest some time to educate yourself on the topic to "UNDERSTAND" Islamic point of view.
Also note, women probably enjoy more freedom in the western countries. Still most of the new reverts/converts to Islam are women. Maybe you should ask some of them about it and appreciate their "Freedom" to pick a religion. :-)
, I have no doubt that lack of birth control is a factor there.
>>>>>>>> Really? Birth control was the issue? Not hate mongering, fear mongering or law and order issue?
I just want to know how to you expect us (The common people ) to reconcile that facts that, you care deeply about minority oppression in Bangladesh and blame birth control for minority oppressions in India? Is is a moral or rational stand? I leave it out to reads of this forum........
Any idea, Mr. Rahman, how the religious beliefs are exacerbating/relieving this problem?
>>>>>>>>>> What's next? You are going to blame corruption of current administration on Islam??
May knowledge, logic, fairness, justice guide you.
Shalom!!
-----Original Message----- From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Aug 21, 2012 5:37 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
(Re-sent with minor changes)
I would like to talk about religions in generalized terms, even when I do recognize that all religions are not the same. Specifically, to me, the no God-fearing religion, Buddhism, looks superior to the God-fearing ones.
Of course, it gets harder to talk in generalized terms when someone keeps bringing up his own religion. Since I do not want to criticize/praise any particular aspect of any particular religion, let me try to maintain the generality.
Killing is not the only way to do injustice to innocent people. Of course, my message was, "under the cover of divinity and unquestionability of religions, criminal people have been making life miserable for too many innocent people." While killing is arguably the most serious form of injustice, life of the killed cannot be miserable after that!!
In an attempt to educate people like Mr. Rahman, let me note that most God-fearing and 'complete code' religions have been unjust to women. Most God-fearing religions are also unjust to people who look at God with different belief systems and with no belief. These are just two examples; and I would let Mr. Rahman count how many people are affected by these two only.
Talking about the Assam problem, I have no doubt that lack of birth control is a factor there. Bangladesh has too many people also; and the government has a valid reason to discourage the Rohingya people to settle there. In fact, if we look at the population growth problem in Dhaka and in Bangladesh overall, it is like a huge bomb on a timer. Any idea, Mr. Rahman, how the religious beliefs are exacerbating/relieving this problem?
Sukhamaya Bain
================================================= From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Let us not criticize religions, criticize religion-peddling
When I heard the verse "Islam clearly said, if an innocent person is killed, it is like killing of all humanity ( Source: Al Qurán 5:32)" for the first time, I had the same reaction as Dr. Das. I was wondering how this verse could make sense, when Prophet was engaged in many wars. In a war, innocent people get killed. There is no denying about it. Then I realize that - devils are in the details of the term "Innocent Person." Who are those innocent persons? I can exclude almost everyone from that category. Therefore, this verse bears very little significance to me. Jiten Roy ============================================================= --- On Sun, 8/19/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
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