That some one was dark skinned does not mean that he or she was a Shudra or a Chandal. At least mythologies do not support it. Buddhadev Bose wrote a book on the Mahabharata. Later on his wife Pratibha Bose wrote another book on the Mahabharata. Pratibha Bose had more of a rebel spirit. To her the Pandavas and Krishna (also God) whom the Hindus in general consider as most pious were nothing but villains. Compare this with how Madhusudan saw Rama and his cohorts in the Ramayana. Vyasdev, the author ( as a matter of fact this epic had multiple authors) of the Mahabharata, was dark skinned. Droupadi was also called Krishna because of her dark skin. Pratibha Bose thought that Vyasdev belonging to a race with black skin glorified the black skinned. But Bose never said that these characters were Shudras or Chandals.
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
The black guy in Durga pratima is 'osur' (meaning a monster) may not be identified with Ravana of the Ramayana although Rama worshipped Durga before he encountered Ravana
>>>>>>>> I stand corrected. Thank you. I was thinking about Osur but wrote Ravana by mistake.
In course of time they mixed with the local people.
>>>>>>>>>> I understand. As an "Outsider" my point was, even among gods and goddesses, the one project fear, strength etc (Maybe Sri Krisna is exception) seems to be darker skinned people. I do not criticize religion but the point was made to show how we collectively think. Our movies also project the same idea most of the time.
Just look at the caste system. Mostly the fair skinned people call themselves "Brahmins". The darker skinned people are (Most of the time) part of "Lower castes".
I wanted to discuss our mentality here. These were used as an "EXAMPLES" only.
Having said that, as a Muslim we are told by our Maker that, every nation and tribes received some revelations. Parts of Veda are very similar to fundamentals of Islam. So it is not hard for us to imagine that, parts of very old scriptures are still in existence in Veda.
Since, even later revelations like the OT and NT (The Bible) is not in it's original form, I can imagine some of the Veda were lost and some were later additions.
The important part is to remember that, we have much in common.
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Dec 20, 2012 5:45 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
Few comments on Rahman's post.The black guy in Durga pratima is 'osur' (meaning a monster) may not be identified with Ravana of the Ramayana although Rama worshipped Durga before he encountered Ravana.Among the Indian epic characters you will see both fair and dark skinned which seems to be normal as we see now that among the Bengalis we also have varieties of physical characteristics. Aryans probably came via and from Iran. In course of time they mixed with the local people. That's why we see varieties. India is also a land of immigrants. Read Katzu article. Ranindranath has recognized it in one of his great poems. As far as I know all great epics, Vedas, Puranas, and other treatises like Kamasutra, Manu Sanhita, Arthashastra, etc. were written by indigenous scholars. All the Hindu idols are the creative imaginations mostly based on mythologies. So thinking Kali, for example, not comme nsurate with Hindu religion is not right. There is a mythological story behind the particular idol of Kali we see. There are more terrifying versions of Kali. Sunil in his Prothom Alo novel has mentioned that Aurobinda Ghosh used to worship Bogla Devi, a most horrifying version of Kali or Durga. Probably he wanted strength so that he could fight against the British rule. Indian myths are interesting.Sent from my iPhoneMember Das,
Not going answer your "Personal attacks" here. I think readers should judge me based on what I say here.
Just a clarification on my "Durga" comment. I am not calling her "A white skinned lady" but here we see a goddess who appeared "White" and the bad guy is of course is a "Dark skinned" Raban (AKA Ravana). I am NOT criticizing your faith, simply sharing an observation here.
Similarly if you look at most Hindi or Bangla movies from last 50 years, you will see the same TREND here. The "Good guy" is someone who does not look like an average Indian or Bengali but he is the hero!!
The point of this sharing is the native population have been "INVADED" many thousand years ago. Staring from Upanishad to other scriptures were written by those "Outsiders". Most of the gods and goddesses are also look more like someone from Afghanistan or Iran than someone from Bihar. For many hundred years, this evolved into what we call "Indian tradition".
You will observe similar things with Christianity as well. Since what we know as "Modern Christianity" is mostly influenced by Paul. Most of the NT verses were Paul's observation rather that what Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) said to his followers. If anyone is curious, there is an edition of Bible call "Red letter Bible" where commands from Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) . You will discover how many outsiders gotten into the narrative. Also if you watch most movies on Jesus son of Mary (PBUH), you will see an European man than a Jew from Palestine. In reality, Jesus looked more like the average native Palestinian than a Nordic man from Sweden. But this is how it was influenced by local cultures. As per Bible Jesus son of Mary (PBUH) prayed on Saturdays but his "Followers" pray on Sundays!!
So most Christian think of Jesus as an European man.
Similarly Hindus religious figures also have a look that is NOT native Indian!!
and don't see Kali as black.
>>>>>>>>> Very good question!
Yes I do. She is not exactly presented as "Showing lot of love" to people. She comes with Ma Kali wears a garland of skulls and a skirt of dismembered arms. She holds a sword and a freshly severed head dripping blood. NOT exactly a "Selling point" about goodness in Hinduism.
Again this is my OBSERVATION only as an "Outsider".
No matter how much word playing one does, you cannot escape the racist mentality in our sub-continent. Albeit Islam teaches us to be color blind but many Muslims are not. They are more influenced by local culture than religion. Even Arabs are not free from it either.
That is the reason I always speak about the Qur'an and last prophet Muhammad (PBUH), when we discuss about Islam.
Anyway, take it easy.
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 18, 2012 6:39 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] About communalism and non communalism--please see my writeup as lot peole accuse Islamists of communalism--please circulate
Mr. Rahman
You took course in a University on the subject of Aryans! Read
Koenraad Elst on the subject, he sure is not an 'ignorant Hindutva'
badi as you think. Fact remains that you read nothing of any
significance on anything, and understood even less. You see Durga as
white skinned lady, and don't see Kali as black. Can you connect
these ladies with Anahita?
Don't ever pretend the knowledge you don't have.
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