May I quote from a website about debating with an Islamist, "It is like playing chess with a pigeon. It would look over all the pieces, shit on the board and claim victory." To an Islamist, even Lot( the guy who was screwed by his daughters according to OT) is a prophet. If you dare to criticize them, death sentence is pronounced and they have enough petrodollars to silence all criticism.
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 9:06 PM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
1. I am happy that now you have agreed to dissociate Prophet Adam from history.2. I am not talking about "explaining an Islamic topic". That's more about Islamic theology. I am talking about Islamic history. To an objective reader, the sole purpose of studying Islamic History is not to glorify or disgrace Islam or followers of Islam. So we have to shake off all negative or positive attitudes and be objective. I do not see any reason why a non-Muslim cannot be a good Islamic historian.3. Don't mix history with myths. Quit the attitude of preaching or unnecessarily glorifying Islam in this forum. Because of what is going on in the current world in the name of Islam, some of the members including Muslim members, I agree, are annoyed. Most of these guys, I believe, are free thinkers. You might have noticed that I reacted negatively to a couple of posts by Mr. Sudhir Architect as those were based merely on blind faith and mythology.4. I am not sure why Dr. Rahman accused me of being rude and then decided not to respond to my request to give his views on some points.
On Wednesday, January 1, 2014 10:08 AM, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
I asked about historicity of Prophet Adam and construction by him the mosque
>>>>>>>>>>>> As I mentioned this is what SOME theologians belief.
I have also asked how much it was feasible that Abraham went to Mecca to reconstruct the mosque.
However there are evidences of prophet Abraham/Ibrahim (PBUH) being involved in making this masjid.
Maqam Ibrahim
Station of Ibrahim (Maqam Ibrahim)In order to complete the upper part of the walls of the Kaaba, Ibrahim stood upon a large stone block which he moved along when each section was completed. When the Kaaba was finished, the large stone block was left outside the Kaaba, close to the eastern wall of the sanctuary. It became known as the Maqam Ibrahim (the station of Ibrahim). Today, the Maqam Ibrahim, with the stone within, is located in front of the door of the Kaaba. The boulder is about 2 x 3 feet. Where it stands today is the place where Ibrahim offered up his prayers.
. Moreover I asked him for his opinion on whether a great discipline like Islamic History should be less comprehensible to non-Muslims.
>>>>>>>>>>> You asked this question to me. NOT Dr. A. Rahman.
Anyway, I have answered it already. Most Muslims have some basic knowledge of Islam, so it is easier for me to explain "Islamic topic" to them. Similarly most Muslims are NOT aware of some basics of Hinduism/sanatana religion. So it would require a little more effort for you or me to explain a Hindu concept to them. Just plain common sense.
Similarly when I speak to someone from Bangladesh and talk about politics, we know most of the basics. A man from Iowa or Wisconsin would require a little more explanation.
Study of history can be painful. Any kind of emotion or preconception (for example, hatred towards or blind love for Islam) can be damaging when it comes to study Islamic History. We need to be objective.
>>>>>>>>>> You have a good point. However I see a "Blind hatred" of Islam in many members. I have discussed religion in different forums and unfortunately Mukto-Mona have some VERY "Close-minded" people in them. Who already decided not to learn about Islam AND ignore or mock anyone who wants to share information about Islam. I feel if you attempt to practice what you preach in this new year, we'll enjoy our future discussions even more.
Lucky for me, I heard a lot about bad and good things of Islam when I grew up. So I was not given any "Shield" to "Protect me" from criticism. Later on I was lucky to learn about Islamic history from both Muslim and non-Muslim sources. So I have done a lot of fact checking and double checking.
As most of you know, I am always open for correction or education on anything.
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Dec 31, 2013 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
I know. Dr. Rahman wrote to me and accused me too. I have replied with some points. Let me see how he responds. I will request him to write to the whole Muktomona group. I have trust in him. I asked about historicity of Prophet Adam and construction by him the mosque. I have also asked how much it was feasible that Abraham went to Mecca to reconstruct the mosque. Moreover I asked him for his opinion on whether a great discipline like Islamic History should be less comprehensible to non-Muslims. Let us wait to see his valued comments on these issues.
Let me tell you one thing. Study of history can be painful. Any kind of emotion or preconception (for example, hatred towards or blind love for Islam) can be damaging when it comes to study Islamic History. We need to be objective.
Sent from my iPhoneMr. QR has now taken a communalist turn. He has now an absurd proposition: Islamic history to a Muslim and a non-Muslim may not be same!
>>>>>>>>>> NO. I reluctantly decided to lecture some of you (Who are acting like a spoiled kid in this forum) about being RATIONAL.
It is very LOGICAL/RATIONAL to think that, a common Muslim will have a little more knowledge about Islam than an average non-Muslim. Similarly a common non-Hindu would most likely know less than a Hindu person about Mahabharat.
I also reluctantly wanted to remind you that, I do not have unlimited time for silly people who have nothing better to do.
He is now playing a trick
>>>>>>>>> Member Rahman will be answering to this very SILLY statement. However I do not think I have the power to play "Tricks" on anyone. Playing games or tricking people comes easily to those who aim to do such things with others.
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 4:53 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Most of Islamic history has been constructed by people who are not Muslims. Hence the opinion of a blockhead does not matter.
Sent from my iPadMr. QR has now taken a communalist turn. He has now an absurd proposition: Islamic history to a Muslim and a non-Muslim may not be same! He is now playing a trick to have Dr. Anisur Rahman whom I consider to be a free thinker on his side on this issue. I will earnestly request Dr. Rahman to make a comment on this.
Sent from my iPhoneDear members,
I was talking to member Anisur Rahman (Who probably has a little more knowledge of Islamic history).
Now, we were talking about RELIGIOUS history!!
So it is ONLY natural (And LOGICAL) both (RELIGION and HISTORY) will come up in the conversation. I do understand coming from non-Muslim background, some of you do not understand some of these established facts. It is OK with me and I am only trying to share information about it. I have no intention to convert you here.
So take whatever make sense to you and you are welcome to disagree with the rest.
I do not have unlimited time to walk you through maturity with some of you and I am comfortable with that!!
May peace be unto all of you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 28, 2013 8:43 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Look, any logical argument you would like to make with this QR will only bound to end up like the one that you are having right now. It is obscene and absurd without any limit. This man world knowledge does not go beyond his book and its some outrageous interpretations. He has been serving the forum with these idiotic answers without any critical thinking or analysis. Just simply ignore this man if you can as suggested by Dr. Das. Thank you.
-SD
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss
On Saturday, December 28, 2013 7:34 PM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
Mixture of history and myth make it difficult to filter the real truths. Was Prophet Adam the first Man? If he was, when and where was he born? Was technology advanced enough at that time to build a mosque?Where was Abraham born? In present time Iraq! About 2000 years before Christ was born? Is there any historical evidence that he went to Mecca to reestablish the mosque? What was the time gap between the first construction and the reconstruction?History must not be replaced with faith.
Sent from my iPhoneThank you for sharing.
understand where you are coming from.
Actually a little more context is important to get the whole picture. According to some theologians The Masjid at Mecca was established by prophet Adam (PBUH). Later Abraham and his son Ishmael (PBUT) re-established it. Both were well known for being strict monotheist. Later pagans took over the holy mosque and had some of the original practices (Like tawaf ) within that practice. In fact some of them used to be absolutely NUDE while doing that tawaf as well. Muslim historians noted that part as well.
Here is a little bit on it from an article....
Hajj and its rites were first ordained by Allah in the time of the Prophet lbrahim [Abraham] and he was the one who was entrusted by Allah to build the Kaba - the House of Allah - along with his son Ismail [Ishmael] at Makkah. Allah described the Kaba and its building as follows:"And remember when We showed Ibrahim the site of the [Sacred] House [saying]: Associate not anything [in worship with Me and purify My House for those who circumambulate it [i.e. perform tawaaf] and those who stand up for prayer and those who bow down and make prostration [in prayer etc.]."
[Surah Al-Hajj 22:26]
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) established the original way of worshiping Allah (SWT) as envisioned by his forefather Abraham (PBUH). Jewish theologians considers Abraham as the "Originator" of Judaism (Which preached strict monotheism like Islam).
Therefore, calling hajj "Originated" from pagan origin is inaccurate but it was intended by our spiritual father Abraham to be worshiped to ONE TRUE GOD only.
Therefore, I think re-prasing it would be more accurate. While it is true pagans took over the holy masjid at Mecca but they did not "Originate" the rituals of hajj, rather hajj rituals carries many original instructions of propohet Abraham (PBUH) even today.
Islam originated with the base ideal of monotheism and anyone who feels it's otherwise may miss the foundation of Islam (Thinking Islam ever allowed or accepted any concept about making partners with our Creator).
My two cents.....
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 25, 2013 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
On page 187 of the 'A History of God' by Karen Armstrong, she said, I quote, "In 630 the city of Mecca opened its gates to Mohammad who was able to take it without bloodshed. In 632, shortly before his death, he made what has been called the Farewell Pilgrimage in which he Islamised the old Arabian pagan rites of the hajj and made this pilgrimage, which was so dear to the Arabs, the fifth pillar of the religion."
Remember that there were a large number of pagans in Arabia at that time and accepting pagan rites in Islam was to encourage them to the new religion, Islam. The Jews, however, stuck steadfastly to their religion. Even then quite a few Jewish rites had been assimilated in Islam, when Mohammad went to Medina to escape Qurayshi persecution of Muslims in Mecca.
I hope this will satisfy you.
- Anis Rahman
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