Dear Junaid
I could be wrong about asking for open debates. But I think that ultimately we must get offline and stand side by side or face to face. No beneficiary or supporter of our current condition really gives a damn about what people say online. Not when they can bribe 1,000 women with saris to attend their rally J
Thank you for your gracious invitation which I most happily accept. I look forward to it very much. There is no requirement for any honour or protocol – our warm handshake will be more than enough to ensure a very pleasant time decorated with entertaining disagreements and rewarding agreements.
In the meantime I ask you to be patient with me. In the following months I assure you I will find cause to be obnoxious and combative with others J Please, please just ignore me no matter how provocative I may be. We should not put our December meeting at risk for anything.
My sincere best wishes to you.
Junel
--- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, "junaid.sultan" <junaid.sultan@...> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Ejazur
>
> Though I am still not very convinced that we should be asking for
> debates like this in this forum, it is a pleasure for me to accept your
> offer for a dinner meeting. And since this will not be debate but a
> social meeting only, I offer you to be my guest of honor. You can come
> alone, or can come with a friend or even with your family. I shall
> maintain the protocol.
>
> Looking forward to see you sometime in December
>
> Best regards
>
> Junaid
>
> --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, "ezajur" Ezajur@ wrote:
> >
> > Dear Junaid
> >
> >
> >
> > There is nothing wrong with asking for a free debate. I have just done
> > it now after almost 10 years on the forum. Mr Mohsin is a public
> figure
> > who has spoken many times in public often against those with differing
> > views. I am a novice in comparison. He may well crush me but that's
> > no reason not to have a debate. I am very argumentative and present
> > argument as best as I can. I wish you would do the same. When I first
> > wrote to him I had no idea who he was. But I did know he was used to
> the
> > cut and thrust of political debate..
> >
> >
> >
> > My last email was in keeping with the tone of your last email. You
> could
> > have argued with me. The tone of our exchanges is set by you.
> >
> >
> >
> > I would love to meet you because you intrigue me. I know nothing of
> your
> > politics or your opinions. All I know about you is that you think I am
> a
> > smug cretin who talks a lot about things he knows nothing about. And
> > though you object handsomely you reveal nothing about yourself or your
> > politics. I am just informing you how you come across to me. I could
> be
> > wrong.
> >
> >
> >
> > You are definitely a bigger expert on Bangladesh than me. I just call
> it
> > as I see it. You have always been free to argue why I am seeing
> wrongly.
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't know how to have a debate with someone I don't know
> > anything about, personally or politically, on any random subject in
> > front of random people. With Dr Mohsin Ali there are many more
> sureties.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have a suggestion in the spirit of friendship. When I am in Dhaka in
> > December lets meet for dinner in a restaurant. Just you and me. Or I
> > bring a friend and you bring a friend. We can split the bill or I will
> > pay. I think it could be informative for both of us. What harm can it
> do
> > to meet over a meal at least once? Life is short and we both care
> enough
> > about our country to read mails from strangers J
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm sure we won't turn it into a food fight and I promise to be
> > on my best behaviour J
> >
> >
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> >
> >
> > Ezajur Rahman
> >
> > Kuwait
> >
> > --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, "junaid.sultan" junaid.sultan@
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > One thing I must appreciate about Mr. Ejazur is his quick response.
> > >
> > > I thought that in this forum we try to convince each other to our
> view
> > > point by our arguments. Now new dimensions have been added. You can
> > now
> > > ask for open debates also. Sad! It is not possible for me to visit
> > > Kuwait. But can we have a debate in Sonargaon (not Sonargaon hotel).
> I
> > > am ready to bring any number of people you want, (from any
> background
> > > AL, BNP, Jatiaya, Jamaat, Communist, Workers, etc. etc., you name
> it)
> > > as long as you pick the bill. I accept all your conditions. I leave
> it
> > > you to choose the topic also.
> > >
> > > And this is not a joke. I am damn serious. And mind you, I was not
> > > comparing Dr. Mohsin with Clinton or Obama. To me you are the only
> > > expert on Bangladesh affairs not Dr. Mohsin.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Junaid
> > >
> > > --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, "ezajur" Ezajur@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The joke of the year award is that I and Dr Mohsin Ali may have a
> > > debate in NY on the politics of Bangladesh? I suggest this does not
> > > require imagination but a certain 'in the field mentality'.
> > > >
> > > > What does require imagination is comparing Dr Mohsin Ali to
> Clinton
> > or
> > > Obama :) I would not dare to debate those two brilliant minds.
> > > >
> > > > I must appreciate Junaid's light banter. Thanks Junaid. Keep it
> > light.
> > > Cheers!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, "junaid.sultan" junaid.sultan@
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Wah! Wah! Ghazab kar dia mere dost
> > > > >
> > > > > In seems we are in contest for joke of the year award. I must
> > > appreciate
> > > > > the person who is challenging. I must appreciate his height of
> > > > > imagination. I must appreciate fertility of his brain. However,
> I
> > > > > don't think that is the end of the story. Mrs. Clinton and Mr.
> > Obama
> > > > > are in the line also. The gentleman may visit Washington when he
> > is
> > > > > visiting New York all the way from Kuwait. Mrs. Clinton and Mr.
> > > Obama,
> > > > > are you ready for the challenge?
> > > > >
> > > > > To person who is seconding this challenge, again I will use my
> > very
> > > > > little knowledge of Urdu language by saying "Khawaja ka gawah
> > > > > daddu."
> > > > >
> > > > > Keep the good work. You are on right track.
> > > > >
> > > > > Junaid
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, Faruque Alamgir
> <faruquealamgir@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Friends
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The proposition of Mr. Ezazur is not only courageous but also
> > > timely
> > > > > since
> > > > > > the BALIST have made the life of Bangladeshis hell by playing
> > the
> > > same
> > > > > > "Bhanga" record on and on thousands of days and on. They are
> > > trying
> > > > > their
> > > > > > best with the connivance of the congenital liars "Gwan Papis"
> > the
> > > > > so-called
> > > > > > self declared Jibis to change the original history of our only
> > > pride
> > > > > > the great "Mohan mukti Judhdha".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By such distortion of truth/facts the newly born Projonmo
> > started
> > > > > believing
> > > > > > that the *" Historic Bhasha Andolon(the Language Movement)*
> was
> > > > > conducted
> > > > > > from Faridpur Jail and the Mohan Mukti Judhdha was directed
> from
> > > > > Cantonment
> > > > > > jail in Larkana, Pakistan by issuing* "CHIRCUT"(???)*.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ezazur Bhai go ahead all Bangladeshis are with you and the
> > truth.
> > > But
> > > > > > brother, I doubt that whether the opponent do possess the
> > courage
> > > to
> > > > > accept
> > > > > > challenge of truth ???????????
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salam and sincere regards.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Faruque Alamgir
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 2:44 PM, ezajur Ezajur@ wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I believe that Sharmila Bose has questioned the narrative of
> > > people
> > > > > like
> > > > > > > you and Farida Majid and that can only be a good thing. As
> > such
> > > I am
> > > > > morally
> > > > > > > obliged to take her side against blind party loyalists like
> > you
> > > even
> > > > > though
> > > > > > > she could have done a much better job and has made mistakes
> in
> > > her
> > > > > approach.
> > > > > > > I was not around in 1971 - so I'm confident I'm not a
> rajakar.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lets dance.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I shall probably visit NY this summer. I invite you to
> reserve
> > > any
> > > > > venue in
> > > > > > > Astoria, Woodside, Jamaica etc. Book it for a 100 people
> > > including
> > > > > dinner. I
> > > > > > > will pick up the bill. We will have a frank debate - just
> you
> > > and
> > > > > me. I will
> > > > > > > come alone but if I can get a local youth organisation to
> > attend
> > > I
> > > > > will do
> > > > > > > so. Please bring your fellow AL doctors, professors,
> advisors
> > > and
> > > > > committee
> > > > > > > members. I have the following non negotiable conditions:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. At least 20 young people over the age of 18 must attend.
> At
> > > least
> > > > > > > 10 must be children of AL committee members. You must
> > introduce
> > > me
> > > > > to each
> > > > > > > one before the discussion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2. We each speak for 2 sessions of 30 minutes each - ie 2
> > hours
> > > in
> > > > > total.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3. If I am interrupted by your members you pay me $1,000.
> And
> > > vice
> > > > > versa.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 4. Two subjects: 1) the 3 million dead of 1971 and 2) the
> > > difference
> > > > > > > between your politics and my politics.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 5. You can choose any elder to be the conductor as long as
> he
> > > has a
> > > > > beard.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I will take any number of questions. There is no winner,
> just
> > a
> > > free
> > > > > > > discussion. You are welcome to bring local Deshi tv. I will
> > also
> > > > > try. The
> > > > > > > transcript of the discussion will be edited by a dignitary
> > > agreed by
> > > > > both of
> > > > > > > us in advance of the discussion. The edited transcript will
> be
> > > > > available for
> > > > > > > reproduction without permission from you or me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lets see if you know my real face or if I know your real
> face.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am waiting for your reply.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ezajur Rahman
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kuwait
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, "Dr. M. Mohsin Ali"
> > > drmohsinali@
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > SO, MR. EZAJUR, YOU BELIEVE THE STORY OF MS. SHARMILA BOSE
> > > WHICH
> > > > > IS THE
> > > > > > > STORY OF THE PAKISTANI MILITARY ABOUT OUR GREAT LIBERATION
> > WAR.
> > > YOU
> > > > > ARE
> > > > > > > SIGNING WITH THE PAKISTANIS AND THE RAZAKARS. THAT'S WHY YOU
> > > NEVER
> > > > > LIKED
> > > > > > > SHEIKH MUJIB AS HE BROKE YOUR BELAOVED PAKISTAN. THAT IS
> YOUR
> > > REAL
> > > > > FACE.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 5/14/11, ezajur Ezajur@ wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: ezajur Ezajur@
> > > > > > > > Subject: [ALOCHONA] Re: A response to Myth-busting of
> > > Bangladesh
> > > > > war of
> > > > > > > 1971 by Sarmila Bose in english.aljazeera.net
> > > > > > > > To: alochona@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 10:25 AM
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Â
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sarmila Bose has made a stand against the myth of 1971 and
> > the
> > > > > dominant
> > > > > > > post war narrative and those who have profited from it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The myth of 1971 is that 3 million people Bengalis were
> > > > > exterminated. As
> > > > > > > proven by the lack of any meaningful effort to measure the
> > > number of
> > > > > deaths
> > > > > > > by successive governments of Bangladesh.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The dominant narrative of 1971 has been that the myth of
> > 1971
> > > is
> > > > > real and
> > > > > > > that those who shout about it are those who are fit to
> govern
> > > best.
> > > > > As
> > > > > > > proven by the behaviour of every successive government.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Those who have profited are those who have publicly
> promoted
> > > the
> > > > > myth and
> > > > > > > privately benefitted with power and money. As proven by the
> > > > > behaviour of
> > > > > > > every successive government.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What Farida cannot abide is that anyone can question
> > anything
> > > > > about 1971
> > > > > > > because it is the myth of 1971 that, in her mind, empowers
> her
> > > and
> > > > > her
> > > > > > > politics, to focus on what they want, ignore what they want
> > and
> > > rule
> > > > > as they
> > > > > > > see fit. Screw them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The creation of the myth of 1971 was the first step in the
> > > > > ruination of
> > > > > > > our country. We have been on our knees ever since. Bridges
> and
> > > > > export
> > > > > > > earnings cannot measure our people. Our people deserve
> better.
> > > And
> > > > > as AL and
> > > > > > > BNP and Jammat relish the orgy of their gross self
> indulgence
> > > they
> > > > > ignore
> > > > > > > the future at the nation's peril.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If BNP of JI thugs commit rape, murder and extortion, as
> > they
> > > do,
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > Farida Majids of our country will protest. If AL thugs
> commit
> > > rape,
> > > > > murder
> > > > > > > and extortion, as they do, the Farida Majids of our country
> > keep
> > > > > quiet.
> > > > > > > There are Farida Majids in BNP and JI.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Screw all these bloody hypocrites. They believe they are
> > true
> > > to
> > > > > their
> > > > > > > dead leader, their dead father and their dead values.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > They, and the rest of us, will soon enough return to the
> > soil
> > > of
> > > > > our
> > > > > > > country, in which lies buried the truth and best spirit of
> our
> > > > > people and
> > > > > > > our beautiful country.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just look at the condition of our country! You know why
> > there
> > > is
> > > > > no class
> > > > > > > war in Bangladesh? You know know why our guitarists can't
> bend
> > > their
> > > > > knees?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > May our soil accept our flesh and bones as payment for the
> > > truth
> > > > > and may
> > > > > > > that truth embrace the next generation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To all hypocrites - ££££ you!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ezajur Rahman
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Its so loud, inside in my head
> > > > > > > > With words that I should have said.
> > > > > > > > As I drown in my regrets
> > > > > > > > I can't take back
> > > > > > > > the words I never said.
> > > > > > > > Lupe Fiasco
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, Farida Majid
> farida_majid@
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/05/20115983958114219.h\
> \
> > \
> > > \
> > > > > tml
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bangladesh war of 1971 Myth-busting Piece by Sarmila
> Bose
> > in
> > > Al
> > > > > > > Jazeera.net :
> > > > > > > > > Farida Majid
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Here we have Sarmila Bose whining on and on against the
> > > > > `dominant
> > > > > > > narrative' and pushing her insubstantial book, Dead
> Reckoning:
> > > > > Memories of
> > > > > > > the 1971 Bangladesh War, as a scholarly work that is meant
> to
> > > bust
> > > > > the myth
> > > > > > > of Bangladesh war of independence in 1971. Her book's spin
> is
> > > strung
> > > > > around
> > > > > > > a few instances of atrocities committed by Mukti fighters
> upon
> > > > > non-Bengali
> > > > > > > collaborators of Pakistan at the time. No one denies those
> > cruel
> > > > > acts of
> > > > > > > retaliation. All wars are cruel and ugly. But by themselves
> > > those
> > > > > acts, or
> > > > > > > her other fieldwork denying widespread rape and murder
> > > (questioning
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > occurrence of any rape by Pakistani soldiers since she could
> > not
> > > get
> > > > > figures
> > > > > > > of exact date, time and place of each sexual assault), have
> > not
> > > been
> > > > > able to
> > > > > > > disprove any of the well-known incidences of crimes against
> > > humanity
> > > > > > > committed by an uniformed, fully equipped with modern arms
> and
> > > > > ammunition,
> > > > > > > professionally trained Pakistani army and its Bengali
> > > collaborators
> > > > > in 1971.
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > doubt whether any of the `uncomfortable truth' she has
> > > unearthed
> > > > > could be
> > > > > > > presented at a War Crimes Tribunal as legal defense against
> > the
> > > > > charges
> > > > > > > brought by the Prosecution at such a Tribunal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The harder Sarmila Bose whines about the `dominant
> > > narrative'
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > fuzzier gets her rationale for wanting to debunk it. Her
> > citing
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > example of Lara Logan, the CBS correspondent haplessly
> caught
> > in
> > > the
> > > > > melee
> > > > > > > of Tahrir Square in Cairo in the spring uprising of 2011,
> > shows
> > > to
> > > > > what
> > > > > > > pathetic extent Bose lacks sympathy and imagination in
> > assessing
> > > the
> > > > > overall
> > > > > > > reality of people's struggle for freedom from oppression.
> Such
> > > > > struggles in
> > > > > > > the annals of history are messy, never picture-book perfect.
> > > Sarmila
> > > > > though
> > > > > > > is unforgiving, and is too mean-spirited to tolerate
> "freedom
> > > and
> > > > > > > democracy-loving people rising up against oppressive
> > dictators."
> > > She
> > > > > has to
> > > > > > > take up the arms of a `scholarly study' to bust the myth!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What is the 'myth' that she is so anxious to bust?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is genocide in Bangladesh, 1971, a myth?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If it is a myth then are we to understand, after Ms
> Bose's
> > > > > so-called
> > > > > > > `research' and report, that genocide did not take place at
> all
> > > in
> > > > > 1971 in
> > > > > > > the then East Pakistan? The "dominant narrative" is all
> about
> > > > > partisan
> > > > > > > exaggeration and no one in the international community but
> her
> > > could
> > > > > detect
> > > > > > > the "uncomfortable truth" in all these 40 years.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Who does she mean by those "who have profited for so
> long
> > > from
> > > > > > > mythologising the history of 1971"?
> > > > > > > > > Does she mean the people of Bangladesh, the world's
> eighth
> > > most
> > > > > > > populous nation? Does `profit' mean gaining the sovereignty
> > and
> > > > > independence
> > > > > > > as a nation?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If so, then all nations who have had to fight for
> > > independence
> > > > > from a
> > > > > > > colonized condition ought to be labeled as having "profited
> > from
> > > > > > > mythologizing history." And that would include United States
> > of
> > > > > America.
> > > > > > > > > Go tell an American that the chronicles of wars and
> > battles
> > > > > fought in
> > > > > > > the American War of Independence during 1775-1783 are all
> > > > > mythologised
> > > > > > > history, and hence a `dominant narrative', a myth that is in
> > > dire
> > > > > need of
> > > > > > > busting!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Let us remind ourselves of the announcement of Gen.
> Yahya
> > > Khan
> > > > > at a
> > > > > > > radio interview at the launching of the Operation
> Searchlight
> > in
> > > > > March, 1971
> > > > > > > in East Pakistan: "We will kill three million of them, and
> > they
> > > will
> > > > > eat out
> > > > > > > of our hands!" The number â€"3 million â€" is
> > > immaterial,
> > > > > though admittedly
> > > > > > > there is an irresolvable argument that swirls around it.
> What
> > is
> > > > > legally
> > > > > > > relevant here, however, is the clear expression of goal and
> > > intent
> > > > > to commit
> > > > > > > genocide by Pak military apparatus in East Pakistan.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > New evidences are emerging, not just from the victims of
> > the
> > > war
> > > > > crimes
> > > > > > > of 1971, but from the perpetrators themselves. Eye witnesses
> > and
> > > > > personal
> > > > > > > encounters from among the Pakistani military personnel are
> > > coming up
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > accounts of General Niazi, General Rao Farman Ali, et al,
> > > exhibiting
> > > > > fierce
> > > > > > > anti-Bengali racism that underscored activities against
> > unarmed,
> > > > > > > unthreatening civilians. Such activities were regarded as
> > > > > reprehensive by
> > > > > > > even the soldiers who carried out the orders because they
> > > violated
> > > > > the rules
> > > > > > > and norms of engagement in warfare. Several books have come
> > out
> > > over
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > years by various Pakistani army personnel including one by
> the
> > > > > infamous
> > > > > > > General Niazi. They are all replete with quotations and
> > records
> > > of
> > > > > utter
> > > > > > > racial contempt for the Bengalis of East Pakistan on the
> part
> > of
> > > top
> > > > > brass
> > > > > > > military officers in the Pakistani army who wanted at least
> a
> > > > > partial
> > > > > > > destruction of the whole race of Bengalis as a punitive
> > measure
> > > for
> > > > > their
> > > > > > > rebellion.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We can then proceed to take a peek at the following U.
> N.
> > > > > Convetion:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and
> > Punishment
> > > of
> > > > > > > Genocide (For full text click here)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means
> any
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or
> > in
> > > > > part, a
> > > > > > > national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > (a) Killing members of the group;
> > > > > > > > > (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of
> > the
> > > > > group;
> > > > > > > > > (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of
> > life
> > > > > calculated
> > > > > > > to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
> > > > > > > > > (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within
> > the
> > > > > group;
> > > > > > > > > (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to
> another
> > > > > group.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > (a) Genocide;
> > > > > > > > > (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
> > > > > > > > > (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
> > > > > > > > > (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
> > > > > > > > > (e) Complicity in genocide. "
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Let us all work for peace as best as each of us can.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Salutes!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Farida Majid
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
__._,_.___
