RE: [ALOCHONA] Re: A response to Myth-busting of Bangladesh war of 1971 by Sarmila Bose in english.aljazeera.net

Thank you probashi for your understanding and compliments.
Shahadat
 

---

To: alochona@yahoogroups.com
From: meghna1900@yahoo.com.au
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 19:18:59 -0700
Subject: Re: [ALOCHONA] Re: A response to Myth-busting of Bangladesh war of 1971 by Sarmila Bose in english.aljazeera.net

 

Attn. Shahadat Suhrawardy.

--------------------------------

Thank you for cooly pointing out such a basic fact.

" Sharmila Bose never denied genocide. She had questioned the number of deaths as claimed by many of us as 3 million.  "

Not only Bose, anybody should have the right to discuss genocide in 1971.

What we need is not  a big mouth and loud voice......we need to learn how to debated and discuss

important issues with style , politeness and reasoning.

It is so sad we get too emotional while talking about NUMBERS of people killed

in 1971. What we have achieved so far...internationally?

I have met so many educated Bangladeshis, in Bangladesh and overseas,  with respectable jobs.......who simply think that showing cheap emotion and raw arguments will make them " a big nationalist "!

I could never convince them " whatever we say" can not be a good style of argument in any

International court, to prosecute Pakistani criminals. We will need well-prepared, evidence based documents.

How many of these documents have been prepared so far........ by various Bangladeshi govts?

Best wishes.

Khoda hafez.

Probashi Bangladeshi

Australia.

---

From: Shahadat Hussaini <shahadathussaini@hotmail.com>
To: Alochona Groups <alochona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 17 May 2011 11:43 PM
Subject: RE: [ALOCHONA] Re: A response to Myth-busting of Bangladesh war of 1971 by Sarmila Bose in english.aljazeera.net

 

During Sheikh Mujib's time under the insistence of Quader Siddiqui (BU), government asked the family members of the deceased personnel to submit application for monetary help and also to get a grass root statitistics, the number of application came out to be 297, 000 (approximately 0.3 million). Therefore 3 million is a liwe as well as white papers 28,000 is a lie. There is still time for the governmemt to have correct statistics. Out of those 3 lacs, there are people who were killed by razakars and freedom fighters (of course Pakistani forces atrocities included).
Sharmila Bose never denied genocide. She had questioned the number of deaths as claimed by many of us as 3 million.
I think those who want to live a life with lie, let them live their lives their way. They are badly polarized.
Shahadat Suhrawardy.
 I hope this argument ends here.

---

To: alochona@yahoogroups.com
From: Ezajur@yahoo.com
Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 07:25:50 +0000
Subject: [ALOCHONA] Re: A response to Myth-busting of Bangladesh war of 1971 by Sarmila Bose in english.aljazeera.net

 

Dear Shafiq

 

No, I am not trying to undermine a crime against humanity. I have already called the murders of 1971 a crime against humanity and genocide. I would have to be a cannibal to side with willful mass murder and rape. I hope you do not think of me so poorly - I could never assume such a thing about you.

 

I do not care for what the Pakistanis think as they were the aggressors. I hardly ever mention that country. Of course they cover up even their own estimate of the true numbers. The number of 28,000 killed in The Hamoodur Report must be most grossly understated.

 

But our victims deserve reparations, admission and apologies from Pakistan. Why should Pakistan get away with it just because we cannot demand or present our case properly?

 

I ask because I don't know what the correct figure is and because the number has been made sacred by the very same people (BNP and AL) who have brought our country to its current condition. And I don't believe them. And I don't buy it when those who are the most senior defenders of this number defend it only with a calculator and simplistic assumptions.

 

I apologise for using the word exaggeration as it offends you. It was not my intention. But the political classes of my country are prone to exaggeration, sometimes out of sentimentality (I am one of them too!) and sometimes for political gain (unforgiveable).

 

Come on Shafiq. Let us not pick on the limitations of mere words. What do you think we get our facts right on? The environment? The population? The stock market manipulators? The BDR tragedy? Smuggling? Black money? The deals that our politicians have made? The deals our businessmen make? The deals our Army makes? Corruption?

 

The electorate does not get the facts.

  

It is not enough, for me at least, that a Pakistani soldier, however honest, said this and that a UN report, informed by any of our governments, said that. What about my country? Why can't my country get even this most important subject right?

 

I am facing a lot of abuse (not from you) but that's okay. I'm nobody and I can easily be ignored. But I think the next generation must, and will, question everything. If they do then we stand a fighting chance of building the nation that so many gave their lives for in 1971. God knows those who followed them have made an almighty mess of it.

 

This is more about us and the way we conduct ourselves than about the Pakistanis. Just because we hate the Pakistanis does not mean that we cannot establish, with the best of our efforts, a formal estimate of the number of our countrymen murdered in 1971. But we are simply happy that Time and Newsweek gave some estimates. The best estimate may turn out to be 5 millions. And it may turn out to be 1 million (personally, I don't think it can be less). We should be serious about the number of our dead.

 

Life has always been cheap in our country. The truth has always been manipulated. We should try to change that. Let's count our dead. Everybody else tries.

 

You see Shafiq, sometimes no matter what we say, people see what they want to see. I'm sure I am guilty of the same sometimes. I am not a freak of nature (you did not say it, I am saying it). My opinions and my politics are fuelled by the people I meet everyday, of every age and class. I find disagreement only with those who are locked into a political party – be it BNP, AL, JP or JI. And, in my life experience, such locked people are in the vocal minority – not the silent majority.

 

I have no reason to think I am better informed or even of sounder mind than you. But if I differ with anyone it is only, in essence, because they are not protesting against our politics. Perhaps they do and I could be wrong in a particular case. But I have found people choose to be silent regarding their party no matter how bad things might be. That's why there is no meaningful reform in the country.

 

I often choose to be obnoxious because I find the silence of those who are better informed and better placed than me to be obnoxious. Its good to hear their voice, no matter how hostile.

 

I have written to you sincerely. Even though we may continue to differ I hope you will consider my failings to be those of a sincere man.

 

Best wishes

 

Ezajur Rahman

Kuwait   

--- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, shafiq013@... wrote:
>
>
>
> You are still trying to undermine the crime committed against humanity.
> The 3 million figures is an estimate and are not only mentioned in some
> UN reports but even in some Pakistani reports. You call it an
> exaggeration absolutely like the official Pakistani stand.
>
> Knowing Pakistani mentality, there is no reason to believe this
> "exaggerated figure" being the reason for no reparations or
> apologies from Pakistan. Let them apologies even for 28 thousands, they
> estimate were killed per Hamoodur Rahman commission report. Again, this
> also is an estimate only. Do you believe this being the correct figure?
>
> And why you believe that 3 million figure is exaggerated like the
> official Pakistani stand? Then what is the correct figure?
>
> It was nice to know that we never get our facts right on anything. What
> it is? News or your desire
> Shafiq
> --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, "ezajur" Ezajur@ wrote:
> >
> > The reason why the number 3 million is important is that this number
> is symbolic of our societal and politcal failures. If we can lie about
> this number we can lie about anything. A nation that exaggerates its
> dead for political gain and dramatic effect, and does not count its
> dead, is doomed to rotteness.
> >
> > And are we in a rotten condition or not?
> >
> > Many good people are sleeping or have given up hope or have been
> beaten into submission. If yelling about this 3 million annoys them
> enough to make them yell back - then thats just fine!
> >
> > The fact is that there were crimes against humanity. Of course this is
> true. The fact also is that the exaggeration of those crimes actually
> diminshes the crimes.
> >
> > Which is why we have no reparations or apologies from Pakistan.
> >
> > We never get our facts right on anything.
> >
> >
> > -- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, shafiq013@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What a logic. You said "There was killing by Pakistani army as they
> > > were tried to protect Pakistan and that's fact." Gentleman, Can you
> > > explain why women were raped? Which Pakistan they were trying to
> protect
> > > by raping women? Why there was loot and arson? Was this another
> attempt
> > > to protect Pakistan? Yes, we killed Urdu speaker after the war and
> > > that's a fact. But if you were old enough to see the war in 1971,
> you
> > > should be able to answer why. The story of the Balouch Pakistani
> soldier
> > > is just a story. Even at present there are not many Balouchs in
> Pakistan
> > > Army not to talk about in 1971. Yes, there was a Balouch regiment
> but
> > > was occupied by Punjabis mostly. And Ziaur Rahman was not setting up
> the
> > > radio at Kalurghat in the middle of war. And above everything, a
> single
> > > soldier cannot help you in this situation like this even if he wants
> to.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The famous Hamoodur Rahamn commission said around 28-30 thousand
> > > Bengalis were killed. The official Bangladeshi stand is that 3
> million
> > > Bengalis were killed. The fact is that there were crimes against
> > > humanity. Don't try to exploit the number of people killed to dilute
> > > the issue. The biggest truth of 1971 is 16th December. Nothing less
> > > nothing more. Sorry you did not like it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Shafiq
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, "ezajur" <Ezajur@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Of course the Pakistanis committed massacres - enough for the word
> > > genocide to be used. And they killed many more Bengalis than vice
> versa.
> > > The issues are:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Were 3 million Bengalis killed?
> > > > 2. How has this number been exploited by polictians?
> > > > 3. What have the lies about 1971 - by BNP and AL - cost our
> country
> > > since 1971?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, Jamil Ahmed jamil_dhaka@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I was old enough to see the war in 1971. There was killing by
> > > Pakistani army as they were tried to protect Pakistan and that's
> fact.
> > > We killed Urdu speaker after the war and that's a fact. In a war,
> it's
> > > the general people who gives a lot of sacrifice.There story will
> be
> > > never told. Just to add one fact that I had seen is that in the
> middle
> > > of war as Ziaur Rahman was setting up the radio at Kalur ghat and
> > > Pakistani army took over our area. Obviously we all are shaken, one
> > > Pakistani solder told us not to be afraid, and added that he is a
> > > baluch. I am sure there is lotof stories like that and those will be
> > > covered by weight of atrocities of other Pak solders.
> > > > >
> > > > > Â
> > > > > Â
> > > > > --- On Sat, 5/14/11, Dr. M. Mohsin Ali drmohsinali@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Dr. M. Mohsin Ali drmohsinali@
> > > > > Subject: [ALOCHONA] A response to Myth-busting of Bangladesh war
> of
> > > 1971 by Sarmila Bose in english.aljazeera.net
> > > > > To: alochona@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Date: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 12:58 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SO, MR. EZAJUR, YOU BELIEVE THE STORY OF MS. SHARMILA BOSE WHICH
> IS
> > > THE STORY OF THE PAKISTANI MILITARY ABOUT OUR GREAT LIBERATION WAR.
> YOU
> > > ARE SIGNING WITH THE PAKISTANIS AND THE RAZAKARS. THAT'S WHY YOU
> NEVER
> > > LIKED SHEIKH MUJIB AS HE BROKE YOUR BELAOVED PAKISTAN. THAT IS YOUR
> REAL
> > > FACE.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Sat, 5/14/11, ezajur Ezajur@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: ezajur Ezajur@
> > > > > Subject: [ALOCHONA] Re: A response to Myth-busting of Bangladesh
> war
> > > of 1971 by Sarmila Bose in english.aljazeera.net
> > > > > To: alochona@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Date: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 10:25 AM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Â
> > > > >
> > > > > Sarmila Bose has made a stand against the myth of 1971 and the
> > > dominant post war narrative and those who have profited from it.
> > > > >
> > > > > The myth of 1971 is that 3 million people Bengalis were
> > > exterminated. As proven by the lack of any meaningful effort to
> measure
> > > the number of deaths by successive governments of Bangladesh.
> > > > >
> > > > > The dominant narrative of 1971 has been that the myth of 1971 is
> > > real and that those who shout about it are those who are fit to
> govern
> > > best. As proven by the behaviour of every successive government.
> > > > >
> > > > > Those who have profited are those who have publicly promoted the
> > > myth and privately benefitted with power and money. As proven by the
> > > behaviour of every successive government.
> > > > >
> > > > > What Farida cannot abide is that anyone can question anything
> about
> > > 1971 because it is the myth of 1971 that, in her mind, empowers her
> and
> > > her politics, to focus on what they want, ignore what they want and
> rule
> > > as they see fit. Screw them.
> > > > >
> > > > > The creation of the myth of 1971 was the first step in the
> ruination
> > > of our country. We have been on our knees ever since. Bridges and
> export
> > > earnings cannot measure our people. Our people deserve better. And
> as AL
> > > and BNP and Jammat relish the orgy of their gross self indulgence
> they
> > > ignore the future at the nation's peril.
> > > > >
> > > > > If BNP of JI thugs commit rape, murder and extortion, as they
> do,
> > > the Farida Majids of our country will protest. If AL thugs commit
> rape,
> > > murder and extortion, as they do, the Farida Majids of our country
> keep
> > > quiet. There are Farida Majids in BNP and JI.
> > > > >
> > > > > Screw all these bloody hypocrites. They believe they are true to
> > > their dead leader, their dead father and their dead values.
> > > > >
> > > > > They, and the rest of us, will soon enough return to the soil of
> our
> > > country, in which lies buried the truth and best spirit of our
> people
> > > and our beautiful country.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just look at the condition of our country! You know why there is
> no
> > > class war in Bangladesh? You know know why our guitarists can't bend
> > > their knees?
> > > > >
> > > > > May our soil accept our flesh and bones as payment for the truth
> and
> > > may that truth embrace the next generation.
> > > > >
> > > > > To all hypocrites - ££££ you!
> > > > >
> > > > > Ezajur Rahman
> > > > >
> > > > > Its so loud, inside in my head
> > > > > With words that I should have said.
> > > > > As I drown in my regrets
> > > > > I can't take back
> > > > > the words I never said.
> > > > > Lupe Fiasco
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In alochona@yahoogroups.com, Farida Majid <farida_majid@>
> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/05/20115983958114219.h\
> \
> > > tml
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bangladesh war of 1971 Myth-busting Piece by Sarmila Bose in
> Al
> > > Jazeera.net :
> > > > > > Farida Majid
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here we have Sarmila Bose whining on and on against the
> `dominant
> > > narrative' and pushing her insubstantial book, Dead Reckoning:
> Memories
> > > of the 1971 Bangladesh War, as a scholarly work that is meant to
> bust
> > > the myth of Bangladesh war of independence in 1971. Her book's spin
> is
> > > strung around a few instances of atrocities committed by Mukti
> fighters
> > > upon non-Bengali collaborators of Pakistan at the time. No one
> denies
> > > those cruel acts of retaliation. All wars are cruel and ugly. But by
> > > themselves those acts, or her other fieldwork denying widespread
> rape
> > > and murder (questioning the occurrence of any rape by Pakistani
> soldiers
> > > since she could not get figures of exact date, time and place of
> each
> > > sexual assault), have not been able to disprove any of the
> well-known
> > > incidences of crimes against humanity committed by an uniformed,
> fully
> > > equipped with modern arms and ammunition, professionally trained
> > > Pakistani army and its Bengali collaborators in 1971. I
> > > > > doubt whether any of the `uncomfortable truth' she has unearthed
> > > could be presented at a War Crimes Tribunal as legal defense against
> the
> > > charges brought by the Prosecution at such a Tribunal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The harder Sarmila Bose whines about the `dominant narrative'
> the
> > > fuzzier gets her rationale for wanting to debunk it. Her citing of
> the
> > > example of Lara Logan, the CBS correspondent haplessly caught in the
> > > melee of Tahrir Square in Cairo in the spring uprising of 2011,
> shows to
> > > what pathetic extent Bose lacks sympathy and imagination in
> assessing
> > > the overall reality of people's struggle for freedom from
> oppression.
> > > Such struggles in the annals of history are messy, never
> picture-book
> > > perfect. Sarmila though is unforgiving, and is too mean-spirited to
> > > tolerate "freedom and democracy-loving people rising up against
> > > oppressive dictators." She has to take up the arms of a `scholarly
> > > study' to bust the myth!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What is the 'myth' that she is so anxious to bust?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is genocide in Bangladesh, 1971, a myth?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If it is a myth then are we to understand, after Ms Bose's
> > > so-called `research' and report, that genocide did not take place at
> all
> > > in 1971 in the then East Pakistan? The "dominant narrative" is all
> about
> > > partisan exaggeration and no one in the international community but
> her
> > > could detect the "uncomfortable truth" in all these 40 years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Who does she mean by those "who have profited for so long from
> > > mythologising the history of 1971"?
> > > > > > Does she mean the people of Bangladesh, the world's eighth
> most
> > > populous nation? Does `profit' mean gaining the sovereignty and
> > > independence as a nation?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If so, then all nations who have had to fight for independence
> > > from a colonized condition ought to be labeled as having "profited
> from
> > > mythologizing history." And that would include United States of
> America.
> > > > > > Go tell an American that the chronicles of wars and battles
> fought
> > > in the American War of Independence during 1775-1783 are all
> > > mythologised history, and hence a `dominant narrative', a myth that
> is
> > > in dire need of busting!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let us remind ourselves of the announcement of Gen. Yahya Khan
> at
> > > a radio interview at the launching of the Operation Searchlight in
> > > March, 1971 in East Pakistan: "We will kill three million of them,
> and
> > > they will eat out of our hands!" The number â€"3 million â€"
> is
> > > immaterial, though admittedly there is an irresolvable argument that
> > > swirls around it. What is legally relevant here, however, is the
> clear
> > > expression of goal and intent to commit genocide by Pak military
> > > apparatus in East Pakistan.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > New evidences are emerging, not just from the victims of the
> war
> > > crimes of 1971, but from the perpetrators themselves. Eye witnesses
> and
> > > personal encounters from among the Pakistani military personnel are
> > > coming up with accounts of General Niazi, General Rao Farman Ali, et
> al,
> > > exhibiting fierce anti-Bengali racism that underscored activities
> > > against unarmed, unthreatening civilians. Such activities were
> regarded
> > > as reprehensive by even the soldiers who carried out the orders
> because
> > > they violated the rules and norms of engagement in warfare. Several
> > > books have come out over the years by various Pakistani army
> personnel
> > > including one by the infamous General Niazi. They are all replete
> with
> > > quotations and records of utter racial contempt for the Bengalis of
> East
> > > Pakistan on the part of top brass military officers in the Pakistani
> > > army who wanted at least a partial destruction of the whole race of
> > > Bengalis as a punitive measure for their rebellion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We can then proceed to take a peek at the following U. N.
> > > Convetion:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment
> of
> > > Genocide (For full text click here)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of
> the
> > > following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in
> part, a
> > > national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (a) Killing members of the group;
> > > > > > (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the
> group;
> > > > > > (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life
> > > calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in
> part;
> > > > > > (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the
> group;
> > > > > > (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another
> group.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Article III: The following acts shall be punishable:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (a) Genocide;
> > > > > > (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
> > > > > > (c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
> > > > > > (d) Attempt to commit genocide;
> > > > > > (e) Complicity in genocide. "
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let us all work for peace as best as each of us can.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Salutes!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Farida Majid
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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