>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I mentioned before, all of us agree on "Fundamentals" of Islam. There is no disagreement on that. For example, in the USA, many citizens (Mostly Republicans and Libertarians) cite 2nd amendment as a proof of 'Right to carry arms" and many other disagree with that interpretation. Similarly Global Muslims are in agreement about basics of Islam. That is why you will see women from Gulf region wear "Face veil" (AKA Niqaab) as a sign of modesty. However most other "Practicing Muslimas" prefer "Hijab" (Where face is not covered but body is). There are many Muslima who do not wear traditional dress (Niqaab, hijab, burqa etc) but even they know what is the requirement of Islam about modest dress.
Do note, women dress was discussed as an EXAMPLE only to make a point.
We all enjoy freedom. In this world, God gave us freedom to obey Him or disobey Him. Those who have faith in Allah (SWT), will follow His commands to be successful in this world and hereafter. Those who do not have faith in Allah(SWT), they can enjoy their freedom in this world.
Again, we all make choices in life to confine ourselves or define ourselves. Those Bangladeshis who migrated to USA made a choice to live in the states. Still they HAVE to follow rules of that country (Pay speeding tickers, income taxes, sales taxes etc). One cannot say I want to live in the states and follow Chinese traffic laws. That would be absurd.
No one is forced to follow Islam but once one person decides to follow Islam,it is better to follow it as best as possible. for example, most Muslims in Bangladesh do not even pray five times a day. No one is attacked for it as far as I know. Only well wishers of that person reminds each other about practicing faith completely. It is just common sense.
. But what about engaging in healthy and sound debates with the rivals or opponents of Islam? What were the preachings and practices of the prophet in this regard?
>>>>>>>> I like it and enjoy it. Those who fear discussions or debates are insecure people who do not have confidence or knowledge to explain their belief. When I read life story of prophet Muhammad (PBUH), it seems he was more accessible to Muslims and non-Muslims than most of our religious leaders of 21st century Bangladesh. It is a sad state of business. But I have seen some positive changes in last 20 years and more educated people are learning about religion and reviving open discussion on Islam in every sphere of societies.
Not only prophet Muhammad (PBUH) engaged many discussions with non-Muslims, there are plenty of imams who are well known for doing so. Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) was well known and respected for his witty debating skill (FYI, most sub-continental Muslims are followers of Hanafi explanation of Islamic laws).
Imam Abu Hanifa life was a joy to read!!
Those who live in the west are welcomed in most of the masjids to discuss/debate religion. Since 9-11 American Muslims are more active in interfaith discussions.
In our time Dr. Zakir Naik (An interfaith Muslim scholar from mumbai, India) is globally known for having open discussions and debates all over the world. He is probably one of the most sought after debaters of Islam today.
I am giving you some links of some of his debates on religion and science.
With Dr. William Campbell.
Qur'an and modern science.
zakir naik similarities between hinduism and islam
IS Jesus God? (By Ahmed Deedat)
Hope you enjoy them.
Shalom!
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Apr 26, 2012 6:39 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam [1 Attachment]
>>>>>>> Again, I have to give you another "Explanation" to answer your question. :-)
Sufism is not a different religion from Islam.
Generally speaking, a true Sufi would follow all fundamentals of Islam (Faith, Namaz, Fasting, Hajj and Zakat) and they FOCUS on spirituality. Followers of other methods are known to focus more on rituals than spirituality. However without practicing and embracing fundamentals of Islam, no one can claim to be "Authentic Muslim". I stress on this fact because today many Muslims feel just having faith is enough but they do not have to follow any rituals at all. There are "Obligatory" rituals and voluntary rituals. ALL Muslims have to practice the fundamentals of faith (AKA pillars of faiths) to be considered as "Muslims".
Typically Sufi method practice all fundamentals and focus on meditations, helping communities etc.
Now we have some Muslims who claim to be "Sufis" not Muslims and I doubt if they are either (Allah knows best!).
Going back to your question. I enjoy many aspects of Sufi tradition. I like their ideas to keep our hearts pure, I like ideas about being open to people of all faith, I like ideas about do service to different communities for the sake to please Allah (SWT). It was the primarily Sufis who brought Islam to Indian Sub-continent. The Muslim kings (Most of them) were busy being "King/emperor" of India more than "Representing/introducing" Islam to Indian people.
In addition of having "Fear of Allah", the Sufis also know Allah (SWT) loves us very much. I love this part of Sufi/Islamic ideology.
Having said that, SOME Sufi followers glorify their "Teachers" more than what Islam teaches us. Some of them do "Business" with mazars making "UnIslamic" promises to ignorant Muslims. I do not like those who "Trade" Islam for worldly benefit. Islamic teachings are too precious, holy and beautiful to be traded for money!! (My opinion).
There are many Muslims who focus too much on rituals and ignore spirituality. That is another extreme.
My understanding of Islam is it is a religion of middle path. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was known to be easy going and fair to ALL people (Muslims and non-Muslims). He forgave all of his personal enemies of his life. Only fought/punished those who wanted to wipe out Muslims from the face of the earth (Or committed treason with young Muslim community at Media). Therefore, I can go closest to the "Spirit/heart" of Islam if I can embrace both rituals and spirituality. So I enjoy picking the best of all ideologies as long practices and backed by the Qur'an and Sunnah of the noble prophet (PBUH).
If you crave for a much simpler answer, I'll say any Islamic rituals that takes anyone closer to Allah (SWT), I like them as Islamic.
Finally, I do not wish to be known as Sufi, Shia, Sunni or Ahmedi etc. The only label of being "Muslim" is sufficient to me. I am not a fan of putting people in different sects or putting myself into any sect other than "Muslim".
I am a little curious as you have with earnest passion quoted from the Vedas.
>>>>>>>>> It is a hobby of mine to read about different faiths and find similarities in them. There are world class scholars who wrote about this, I only share the results with some "Passion". Because I strongly feel, we spend too much time in finding differences but do not invest enough time to find "Common grounds" with people from different faiths. There is a beautiful verse of the Qur'an about it....
(Source: Al Qur'an 3:64)
The Greatest Commandment (The Bible)
(Matthew 22:34-40; Luke 10:25-28)
{new testament, Mark 12:28-34}
Shalom!
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2012 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam
"There is no image of Him."
[Yajurveda 32:3]
"He is bodyless and pure."
[Yajurveda 40:8]
"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink
deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti."
[Yajurveda 40:9]
verse of Yajurveda:
"Na tasya Pratima asti"
"There is no image of Him."
[Yajurveda 32:3]
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam
Hindu culture in Kerala is not exactly same as Hindu culture in Bengal
>>>>>>>>> You are right to some extend. Even in Islam the sub-cultures are different based on region. HOWEVER Islam gave us some universal laws. Here in that respect Islam is different than Hindu "Tradition". I call Hindu "Culture" a more like "Tradition" than religion.
Because in classic concept of religion, it is well structured. For example Judaism has dress codes similar to Islam. Historical Christians used to have dress closer to practicing Muslims. Christianity has "Evolved" and gotten more like Hinduism now a days. So you will see US churches talking about a "Black Jesus" in Afro-American areas, you will see image of Jesus in Mexico making it look like he was Hispanic and "Classic" Euro Christians adopted Jesus to their own standard (Blue eyed blond guy!!). I had a lively discussion with a devout Christian from south about that. I said Jesus was a Jew (As per Bible) and he was from Palestine (His birth place is part of Palestine), so he probably looked more like an Arab Palestinian than a blond guy from Germany!!
Logically one cannot accept "Local culture" and claim to practice an authentic religion for everything.
Hinduism varies a great deal from regions. Even Hindus who migrated in western world slowly but surely changed some of their traditional practices (Ganges is far away, pundits are scares etc).
As per Islamic concept, our Maker gave us a COMPLETE code of life.Unlike most prominent religions it did spell out religious views in a very structured way.
I have to agree with member Hanan that, some of what goes on during "Nobo Borsho" goes against traditional Islamic ideals. Islam does not prohibit us to accept local cultures but practicing Muslims know the limits given by our Maker. In Finland nudity is well accepted in that society. Even incest type relations is quite common in that culture. A practicing Muslim will never embrace those aspects of Finish "Culture". Maybe an Iraqi Arab will change his Arab garbs for suits but it is unimaginable for a "Practicing Muslim" to forgo commandments by Allah (SWT).
So what member Roy and Subimal said is partly correct but as per Islamic ideals we have our limits in how much we can accept of any culture.
What I want to say I'd that a religion must not be too restrictive; it must not spoon feed what to wear and what not to eat or drink. It should rather focus on the values that are universal.
>>>>>>>>Those who embrace a concept of deity, they expect religions to tell them to say what they can eat and what is not allowed to eat. I understand some of us are not fan of such restrictions. However without those 'Restrictions" or guidelines religions lose it's own identity and universality as well.
That is why you will see people from Pakistan play very good Cricket but they don't drink beer (At least the practicing ones!) like Australians or Brits.
In other words for Muslims, we may enjoy some fanfare in moderation but don't expect any Muslim with some sense to embrace IPL cheer leaders type of dance for "Nobo Borsho" anytime soon. ;-)
I do not see any problem with Rabindra Sangits and classic bangla cultural aspect in some cases. "Anandaloke mongol aloke birajo satya sundoro...." has been a favorite of mine for a long time.
As long people understand and respect sensitivities of "Practicing Muslims" in such areas, we can get along nicely.
Shalom!
From: S A Hannan <sahannan@sonarbangladesh.com>
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] RE: [KHABOR] FW: Bangla New Year Day--editorial Asia Post
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, April 14, 2012, 8:10 PM
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 1:07 AM
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: [KHABOR] FW: Bangla New Year Day--editorial Asia Post
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Friday, April 27, 2012
Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam
ALL Muslims have to practice the fundamentals of faith (AKA pillars of faiths) to be considered as "Muslims"."----Q. Rahman
-----I notice that you have put the word "Muslims" within inverted commas. As far as I know there is no unanimity on this. I will prefer freedom so that no believer in any faith feels left out. Do you have further comments on it?
-----Original Message----- I think I mentioned before that, when I read about life of "Sri Krisna", I found it to be very similar to life of holy prophet Moses (PBUH). I am attaching an article, I read on this topic few years ago. Hope you enjoy it as much I did when I read it for the first time.
"Finally, I do not wish to be known as Sufi, Shia, Sunni or Ahmedi etc. The only label of being "Muslim" is sufficient to me. I am not a fan of putting people in different sects or putting myself into any sect other than "Muslim"."---Q. Rahman.
-----Your broadness of mind is highly appreciated.
"ALL Muslims have to practice the fundamentals of faith (AKA pillars of faiths) to be considered as "Muslims"."----Q. Rahman
-----I notice that you have put the word "Muslims" within inverted commas. As far as I know there is no unanimity on this. I will prefer freedom so that no believer in any faith feels left out. Do you have further comments on it?
" (The prophet) Only fought/punished those who wanted to wipe out Muslims from the face of the earth (Or committed treason with young Muslim community at Media)."----Q. Rahman
-----It is understandable that any community has the duty to counterattack the enemy if there is a physical attack on the community itself or its valued faith. But what about engaging in healthy and sound debates with the rivals or opponents of Islam? What were the preachings and practices of the prophet in this regard?
Regards
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Are you a fan of Sufism?
Say 'O people of the scripture! Come to a word common to you and us that we worship none but Allah and that we associate nothing in worship with Him, and that none of us shall take others as Lords beside Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: Bear witness that we are Muslims (those who have surrendered to Allah).'
By finding common grounds in us, we find common humanity in us. I feel this is a good way to remove misunderstanding about Islam and bring peace between different faith communities. Since most scriptures talks about "One unseen God/Creator". We can use that as a starting point. Quoted scriptures from Veda shown us we have many similarities with what it said about "Concept of God". Even if you analyze other scripture of world's "Popular religions", you will see similar common grounds....Any Muslim (With little knowledge of scripture) will tell you that, from Adam to Muhammad (PBUH) all messengers of God came with same message. Sumbit and obey one unseen God.
=====================================================================================================================
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD!"
(The holy Bible, Old testament , Deut. 6:4)
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
( The holy Bible,new testament, Mark 12:29 >>)
"There is no true god but God, and Muhammad is the Messenger (Prophet) of God,"
28Then one of the scribes came near and heard the Sadducees[q] arguing with one another. He saw how well Jesus[r] answered them, so he asked him, "Which commandment is the most important of them all?"
29Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, 30and you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.'[s] 31The second is this: 'You must love your neighbor as yourself.'[t] No other commandment is greater than these."
32Then the scribe said to him, "Well said,[u] Teacher! You have told the truth that 'God[v] is one, and there is NO other besides him.'[w] 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding, and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices."
34When Jesus saw how wisely the man[x] answered, he told him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that, no one dared to ask him another question.
=======================================================================================================================================
-----Original Message----- From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, Apr 21, 2012 11:37 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam
Great.
I have personal question for you. You do not have to answer.
Are you a fan of Sufism? I am a little curious as you have with earnest passion quoted from the Vedas.
Rgds.
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
SB: In reality, the advancement of the human civilization has been happening through successive redefining of that "something else." Interestingly though, people seem to be too hooked on to their religious identities, while they actually follow "something else" over their forefathers' religions.
>>>>>>> Agree. :-) Very good observation indeed. SC:Although Dharma-shastra or other books like it are not read by the Hindus, they still hold some other books like the Geeta, the Chandi, the Mahabharata, and Ramayanan as scred and use them for general guidelines or guidelines on moral and ethical issues as well as for purely religious issues to earn piety. These are some of the books that many Hindu families have among their belongings. >>>>>>> Well said again. Ironically the religious text which most similarities with Islam and Hinduism is "Ved/Veda". It speaks clearly about "Concept of God" and not too far from what Islam teaches about "Concept of God". The problem is Veda is not accessible to common Hindus and until recently most of them were not easy to understand (It became easier after some wise people decided to translate them). An Indian interfaith scholar did some work to present them to Muslims and non-Muslims as well.
1. "na tasya pratima asti"
2. "shudhama poapvidham"
3. "Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste"
Anyway, I enjoyed discussion by both members and enjoying learning from both of you. Thank you!! Shalom! -----Original Message----- From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Apr 20, 2012 4:45 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam
A little clarification may be needed. What the Quoran is to the Muslims, Manu's Dharmashastra is not exactly the same thing to the Hindus. It is true that most pf the Hindus have not heard about this sacred book, but they are still following it unconsciously to varied extents. Besides this book, they are following other Smriti-Shastra books also written subsequently by many authorities including Raghunandan. Books were written during Ballal Sen's rule of Bengal. Hindus are still following edicts on caste system and caste dealings as well as dealings with women elaborated in these sacred books, although with education, political reforms, economic independence of women, etc. these are gradually becoming the matters of the past. But we have to admit that we still have to a go a long long way before we can stop.
Let me give one example from rural Bengal as I saw it about 40 years ago. When a person is suffering from a terminal disease which is causing great sufferings to him, he could go to a Brahmin with degree in scriptures called pandit to get a piece of paper called "byabastha-potro" by paying him some money. The pandit would certify to God for the diseased person for one of the two alternatives----cure fully or die soonest so that there is no suffering.
Although Dharma-shastra or other books like it are not read by the Hindus, they still hold some other books like the Geeta, the Chandi, the Mahabharata, and Ramayanan as scred and use them for general guidelines or guidelines on moral and ethical issues as well as for purely religious issues to earn piety. These are some of the books that many Hindu families have among their belongings.
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
The exchange below between Mr. Subimal Chakrabarty and Mr. Q. A. Rahman is very interesting. Two opposing views: 1) religion should not be too restrictive, 2) without the restrictions, 'religions lose it's (sic) own identity and universality'.
The way I see it, we are not talking about starting a new religion here. Thus, it is not for us to say what a religion should or should not be. We have to look at each religion the way it is. If we think a religion is too restrictive, and if we do not like that, then we probably should not follow that. We can extract what is good in the religion in question; discarding what is not good in it. I personally want to do this with every religion that I have time to read about, irrespective of what religion my parents or grandparents had, with absolutely no malice toward any religion.
Universality of religions! I do not think there is such a thing universality of any religion; whether it is like a mind-enslaving dogma or like a culture/tradition.
However, I agree with Mr. Rahman on the first part of the quoted part of point 2 above. Without the restrictions that a religion imposes, it would not be that religion. It would be something else. Of course, people who rely on their natural human intelligence would probably prefer that "something else" over that religion.
In reality, the advancement of the human civilization has been happening through successive redefining of that "something else." Interestingly though, people seem to be too hooked on to their religious identities, while they actually follow "something else" over their forefathers' religions. For example, most people who identify themselves as Hindus do not care to know, let alone follow, what Manu's 'Dharmashastra' said.
Sukhamaya Bain
==============================================
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
There are religion-specific cultural differences for sure. But they are very minor differences. Bengali Hindu culture and Bengali Mislim culture are almost synonymous. That is reflected in our literature, music, performance arts, arts and paintings, food habits, and above all in our national aspirations. We belong to a common heritage and have a common tradition.
A practicing Muslim and a practicing Hindu have a common Bengali culture and that that is reflected in our common and joint cultural programs.
Most of what you have said refers to differences in religious belief systems. They are not cultural matters. They exist in every religion.
I believe in freedom of a human being (soul). Nothing should be coercive to it---neither a state nor a religion. The human must not be micromanaged. It needs broader guidelines though and sense of common goals as well for peaceful coexistence and advancement. Values preached to him should be universal as much as possible. Sage Manu's "Dharmashastra" is no more a complete code of life. The world has changed a lot and it is constantly changing. Our sages had long and clear vision. But there was a limit to how far they could see. That's why we need new thoughts and at least new interpretations.
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 16, 2012, at 1:08 PM, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
-----Original Message----- From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, Apr 16, 2012 7:25 am Subject: [mukto-mona] Bengali culture and Islam
Culture is a vast thing. 'Indecency' is subjective. If culture means how a group leads its life in general--what the group members eat and how they eat, what they wear, what games they play, what music they listen to, how they deal with their fellow group members, and so on, then it must be mostly local. A religion has almost nothing to do about it. Hindu culture in Kerala is not exactly same as Hindu culture in Bengal. It is more appropriate to say culture in Kerala or culture in Bengal without tying it to a particular religion. There are subcultures within each culture. But we are talking about our national culture in general which must be all inclusive. Culture evolves over time in an interactive way. What I want to say I'd that a religion must not be too restrictive; it must not spoon feed what to wear and what not to eat or drink. It should rather focus on the values that are universal. Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 15, 2012, at 9:08 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hannan Saheb,
Thank you for saying that the so called "Muslim-Culture" has Arabian cultural influence. You are an open minded religious person, who I can talk to for hours. May I respectfully present a few more points in this regard?
You said: "Muslim culture vary from place to place partly as Islam allows acceptance of Urf or local custom if it is not against Tauhid and does not contain Shirk and Fahisha ( indecency)."
When you say "…if it is not against Tauhid and does not contain Shirk and Fahisha ( indecency)" you are measuring against STANDARDs that came from a different region (Arabia), and you are trying to comply with it. You are also assuming that this is the bottom line. Before you do so please think about the following scenario – let's assume Prophet and writers of those Islamic religious books were from Bangladesh; what kind of cultural practices they would have prescribed for the Muslim Ummah? Definitely, the religion would have been the same, but the cultural practices for Muslims would have been the local Bengali customary practices. As you see – religious culture reflects local culture, and culture is not absolute, but – the religion is.
Therefore, we should not mix up religion with culture. Logically, I would think - even if local practices do not comply with "Tauhid" it should be fine with Islam. And the standard for Shirk and Fahisha ( indecency) has universal norms; I agree with you on those points.
Regards,
Jiten Roy
--- On Sat, 4/14/12, S A Hannan <sahannan@sonarbangladesh.com> wrote:
Respected Jiten sahib,
It is true time has changed. It is also true that Muslim culture has some Arab root, however ninety percent of it is based on teachings of the Quran and Sunnah and in that sense Muslim culture is universal for Muslims. Muslim culture vary from place to place partly as Islam allows acceptance of Urf or local custom if it is not against Tauhid and does not contain Shirk and Fahisha ( indecency).
Shah Abdul Hannan
From: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com [mailto: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jiten Roy
Hannan Saheb,
Our childhoods were in a different era. Now it is internet era. We have many things now that we did not have then; also we do many things that we did not do then. We have cell phones now; boys and girls can talk as long as they want, which we could not do. These are modern amenities, and they are here to stay. You should not stay in your childhood forever. You cannot stop progress in the society because it was not there before.
Also, what you call your religious culture is not your Bengali Muslim culture; it's the Arabian Culture. You are trying to emulate that culture as your religious culture. Every society has distinct culture. Religion is separate from culture. Our Bengali culture is richer than Arabian Culture. Don't try to shun your culture to embrace some foreign culture. Having said that, I should admit - we cannot eliminate the influence of othe
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