>>>>>>>>> As far as 'Proof" is concern, I have given MANY such proofs with sources here in this forum about Islam. But those who do not want to change their mind set do not see those as such.
However, you have a point here. As most "Islamic" nations were colonies not too long ago, it is hard to find a "Perfect" example of the Islamic state we talk about. When some of us (Those who have faith in Islam) talk about good exemplary Islamic state we have to go back few hundred years.
I would submit to you, there are NO perfect states in the whole world!!
NONE!
I would ask you to name ONE country which you feel is "Perfect", I'll discuss it for you. About one hundred years ago our forefathers thought socialist/communist system was the answer to all of our problems. At the end of his life famous Aroj Ali Matubbar argued the same for communist system. Little he knew, the whole system was going to fall in it's own face within decades. Today capitalist system is being tested in every way and requires FUNDAMENTAL changes for it to survive as an acceptable system. So there is NO perfect model.
In all fairness it will take few more years for Islamic countries to "Come back". The process has started and some of the wrong interpretations are being screened out for more acceptable and genuine version of Islam. if you analyze the power shift in many middle eastern countries, you will see a more tolerant, accepting and open platform of Islam being promoted. Countries like Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, UAE made huge progress in a short span of time.
As a Muslim, I feel God's law is perfect. But we human beings are VERY imperfect. So the deficit we see in rhetoric and implementation is not a flaw of the law rather shows short comings of human beings and nasty politics. For example, if you offer a BMW car to a Rickshaw puller, he will crash it. Without proper knowledge to operate it, the best car in the world will NOT work.
Those who saw Sheikh Mujibor Rahman closely never doubted his love for our country but history says there are areas where he came short in translating that love for the country as a leader. Despite false propaganda against him, he was a true patriot and devoted to people of our country.
Similarly to "Transform" a concept to reality needs dynamic and pragmatic leaders like Mahathir. Unfortunately neither Sheikh Mujib nor Ziaur Rahman were given enough time to transform our country. Only "Bishwa Behaya" Ershad got sometime in the administration.
Those who speak passionately about women's right issues often overlook the fact, a Muslim majority country like Bangladesh "Elected" women in power for last two decades. Today the world thinks NGOs and private industries did more to empower women than any government initiatives!!
Just take a "Dispassionate" look around our politics today. How much of our parties reflect "Ideals" of these parties. Sarbahara party today not known for promoting socialist model but for looting, killing, abduction etc.
As I said many times, we have to set our priorities first. Which should be our country. In order to protect our people, we have to have transparent justice system, law enforcers, good communication, modern education system etc. These institutions will ensure better protection for our citizens. If we rely on people, we are bound to be disappointed again and again.
Lastly, I think demanding perfection from ALL Muslims ALL the time is not realistic or even fair proposition. Here we discuss the fundamental values of Islam most of the time. How to impliment it in our land is a total different subject. Maybe we can get into such discussion later sometime (If couple verses from the holy Qur'an does not make anyone dizzy, you are welcome to join the discussion!).
Are we mature enough to "Tolerate" such a discussion? :-)
Shalom!
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, May 12, 2012 11:44 pm
Subject: Re: [KHABOR] RE: [mukto-mona] Fw: [Alapon] Wall Street Journal article--my comment-- a religion as state ideology does not harm development.
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [KHABOR] RE: [mukto-mona] Fw: [Alapon] Wall Street Journal article--my comment-- a religion as state ideology does not harm development.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 11, 2012, 10:16 PM
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 6:22 PM
To: khabor@yahoogroups.com; mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [KHABOR] RE: [mukto-mona] Fw: [Alapon] Wall Street Journal article--my comment-- a religion as state ideology does not harm development.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 7:31 AM
Subject: [KHABOR] RE: [mukto-mona] Fw: [Alapon] Wall Street Journal article--my comment-- a religion as state ideology does not harm development.
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 5:20 AM
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: [Alapon] Wall Street Journal article
--- On Wed, 5/9/12, Muhammad Ali <man1k195709@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Muhammad Ali <man1k195709@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Fw: [Alapon] Wall Street Journal article
To:
Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2012, 5:36 PM
From: modasser khosseine <bolonhome@hotmail.com>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2012 9:32 PM
Subject: [Alapon] Wall Street Journal article
Bangladesh Is South Asia 's Standard-Bearer
The former 'basket case' is more moderate on religion and more pragmatic on development than its peers.
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Saturday, May 12, 2012
Re: [KHABOR] RE: [mukto-mona] Fw: [Alapon] Wall Street Journal article--my comment-- a religion as state ideology does not harm development.
They do not need any proof or validity for their claims. I am puzzled by the fact that so many intelligent educated people attain such a state of mind and cannot get out of it. Or, may be – they are just puppets playing along what their masters are asking them to do or say
-----Original Message-----
My question to Mr. Hannan is this - show me a single country in the world that has implemented the (Islamic) system you are talking about, and has been able to attain unabated human development to ascend to the top of the economic ladder?
I have no clue as to what your system is as you have used some strange words in some language that I do not understand. You did not show me an example. I am assuming the answer to my question to you is NO.
I need result, Mr. Hannan, not hypothesis. As far as I know - no Islamic system (or any other religious system for that matter) has achieved anything that good on this earth so that others should follow them. I do not know who in their right mindset will want to implement reins of ancient Islamic Caliphate in this day and age. These are just wishes of some adamant religious radicals without valid grounds. Everything to them is faith-based. They do not need any proof or validity for their claims. I am puzzled by the fact that so many intelligent educated people attain such a state of mind and cannot get out of it. Or, may be – they are just puppets playing along what their masters are asking them to do or say. It's a tragedy of humankind. You have to excuse me for saying these. I am saying these harsh words out of my true compassion for my fellow human-beings.
Jiten Roy
--- On Fri, 5/11/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
Hannan is totally ignorant of history. The Abbasid dynasty came to power by assassinating the Umayyads en mass on a dinner table, perpetrated it's rule by the support of the Mutazillas who did not believe that the holy Quran was the uncreated word of God etc. If this is the example of a theocratic regime, all atheists would support such administrations. Talking about the Ashoke and the Mughals; Ashoke was himself converted to Buddhism though the creed did not crystallize as a religion till then and the Mughals were such devout believers that none of them circumcised and the most famous of them even tried to found a new religion. Aurangzeb tried to show his adherence to Islam bringing about the collapse of the dynasty.
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 6:34 AM, S A Hannan <sahannan@sonarbangladesh.com> wrote:
Munawar sahib and others,
Please read again. I said "A proper Islamic state is expected to do well in development because it produces moral persons, not secular materialists."
Islam also highlights development in the verse Rabbana Atina Fiddunia Hasanatan ------------"Islam has encouraged work and decried giving up the world or begging.
Shah Abdul Hannan
From: khabor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:khabor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ali Manwar
Dear Mr. Hannan: You did not prove that it was the religion that was the cause of development. So, what is the point?
Ali Manwar, PhD
Maryland
From: S A Hannan <sahannan@sonarbangladesh.com>
Dear Sirs,
Please see my short response to the letter below. If the state takes a religion as its ideology, it does not harm development. Abbasid Khilafat had Islam as the basis of the state. So is the case of Mughals in India . Ashoke's rule in India had Buddhism, Israel has Judaism. All these states reached high stage of development and religious ideology did not harm development.
Development is the function of good leaders, good laws and good governance, state ideology help this only. A proper Islamic state is expected to do well in development because it produces moral persons, not secular materialists.
Shah Abdul Hannan
From: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com [mailto: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Jiten Roy
Encouraging news indeed!
Advanced and prosperous countries do not mix religion and politics. This is not just a statement; the truth is right in front of our eyes. That's the key to the success of the advanced countries. Government has no business to deal with any religion. Let religion take its course.
Whatever progress Bangladesh has made under the present government is due to whatever secular policies they have implemented, and we see the results right away. This should be the encouragement for the government to adopt more secular policies. Country's progress comes from the progress of the individual citizen, irrespective of religious affiliation. When government starts to promote a particular religion over the others, it breaks the cycle of progress in other religious groups, which is bound to degrade the overall progress of the country. Let's learn from history, and work together towards the progress and prosperity of all citizens by transforming Bangladesh into a true secular country, as opposed to making it a model Islamic country. There is no future for any Islamic or Hindu or Christian country in the world. These are vacuous aspirations only - nothing to do with reality.
Jiten Roy
----- Forwarded Message -----
Wall Street Journal article
Despite its 160-million strong population, Bangladesh can find it hard to elbow its way onto the global stage. It's in an area where India is cast in the lead as the dominant economy, Pakistan plays the intermittent villain, and Sri Lanka and Nepal feature in cameos as countries with uncertain futures. Yet when U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton touches down in Dhaka Saturday—the highest ranking American official to visit in nearly a decade—she'll encounter a country that can teach a lesson or two to all other regional actors.
The world's third-most populous Muslim-majority country stands out as a model of moderation. Unlike in virtually every other country in the Muslim world, Islamists in Bangladesh are on the defensive. Seven people, including high profile leaders of the Jamaat-e-Islami, South Asia's most powerful Islamist group, face war crimes charges for their role in slaughtering Bangladeshi patriots, Muslim and Hindu alike, during the country's 1971 war of independence against Pakistan .
Current Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina Wazed's father, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman (1920-75) led that struggle, which claimed 3 million lives according to the Bangladesh government. The trial reveals the government's willingness to deal with one of the most painful episodes in the young nation's history. It also shows its refusal to allow Islamists to label the regime as "anti-Islam" for pursuing them, a form of blackmail that often obstructs justice in other places.
In a similar vein, Bangladesh can boast one of Asia 's best records of fighting Islamist terrorism. The South Asia Terrorism Portal estimates that only nine people have lost their lives since Ms. Hasina swept to power at the end of 2008. In the four years before that, terrorists claimed 56 lives at home, while the Bangladeshi terrorist group Harkat-ul-Jihad al-Islami (or HuJi-B) carried out high-profile terrorist strikes in India .
Much of Bangladesh 's success in confronting the most intolerant elements within its own society comes from crafting an inclusive national narrative. Unlike Pakistan , Bangladesh does not define itself by faith alone. Most Bangladeshis see no contradiction between being proud Muslims and proud Bengalis. This self-confidence gives the country the ability, which some other Muslim societies lack, to push back against extremism.
Enlarge Image
EPA
Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina Wazed.
Then there's the down-to-earth pragmatism present in Dhaka 's approach to development. Over the past five years, the economy has expanded on an average of 6% per year. Unlike India , which is hobbled by socialist-era labor laws that interfere with hiring and firing, Bangladesh has built a world-class apparel industry that employs more than 3.5 million people and supplies global brands like H&M, Walmart and Tommy Hilfiger. Thanks to this, the country is already the world's second largest exporter of readymade garments after China . If it plays its cards right, Bangladesh , more than any other South Asian nation, could attract a fresh wave of labor-intensive manufacturing looking for cheaper alternatives to China . Goldman Sachs lists Bangladesh among its "Next 11," countries that have the potential to become major economies.
And after years of tensions with its bigger neighbor, Bangladesh is now being practical and seeking to normalize ties with India . The two countries have already settled long festering territorial disputes and opened up trade. A landmark transit agreement would place Bangladesh at the heart of a potentially dynamic growth corridor encompassing northeastern India and a newly democratizing Burma . This is currently being stymied by Indian politician Mamata Banerjee, who as chief minister of the West Bengal state that borders Bangladesh opposes an allied water-sharing agreement with Dhaka .
Still, Dhaka and New Delhi are pushing for this agreement and it could succeed, possibly ushering in a new peace dividend in the region. At any rate, Dhaka's pragmatism in its foreign relations stands in contrast to India, which can't always suppress its preachy rhetoric of nonalignment (toward the West), as well as Pakistan, which often sputters in a sea of Islamic fundamentalism and knee-jerk opposition to India.
That said, Bangladesh is hardly free of problems. Ms. Hasina and her chief opponent, the Bangladesh Nationalist Party's Khaleda Zia, have created a poisonous zero-sum politics, which has come to the fore again in recent days. The BNP is up in arms at the disappearance of one of its leaders last month and they blame Ms. Hasina's ruling party. They have shut down the country with crippling national strikes four times in the past month.
No one knows how the BNP official in question disappeared, though, and a string of similar disappearances reflect a deteriorating law and order situation. Either law enforcement is engaged in extra-judicial actions, or vigilantes can roam free with impunity. Neither is encouraging.
Meanwhile, the Islamist threat has been reduced but not eliminated. The BNP remains at best ambivalent and at worst actively sympathetic toward Islamist forces similar to those that have helped drag Pakistan in a downward spiral. And though Bangladesh 's army deserves some credit for keeping its distance from politics since late 2008, it's by no means certain that the country's latest experiment with democracy, barely three and a half years old, will last. The military first seized power in 1975, and has done so repeatedly since.
But for now, these worries can take a back seat. This weekend, a country once dismissed by former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger as a basket case, gets to show one of his successors how wrong it has proven him.
Mr. Dhume is a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington, and a columnist for WSJ.com. Follow him on Twitter @dhume01
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