1. Answers to the questions asked by Q. Rahman are straightforward and a civilized answer to each of the questions would be an absolute NO.
2. Kamran Mirza's questions are "tricky" and "flawed". The questions are tricky because a staunch believer would find them difficult as well as troublesome. The questions are flawed as they are based on the scientifically untenable assumption of an omnipotent, omniscient, and compassionate God. God is a mythological, religious, metaphysical, or philosophical construct. Depending on the basis or premise of the construction, the nature of God varies. The construct also varies depending on time and place of construction. Time and place is all encompassing covering many things including socio-economic conidions prevailing at the particular time-space coordinates. The merit of a religion depends on to what extent the preacher has understood the past and the process of it's historical development up to his own time. The merit of the religion also depends greatly on how far into the future the preacher can see. Having said that, for an analytical free thinking man the questions asked by Mirza become irrelevant.
3. I am happy that Mirza has also, among other belief systems, mentioned the Kurukshetra battle where Krishna advises Arjuna to kill his enemies who happen to be his cousins and other close relatives. There are two extreme views about Yudhisthira--- Dharmaputra vs. a villain. Seen as a historical piece, Krishna's advice was political and sectarian. In the civilized modern world this teaching of the epic Mahabharata can be "salvaged" only by giving it a nice "twist" viz., it teaches us to fight against evils. This means that advice to kill is symbolic. A deeper meaning that is offered refers to the concept of illusion vs. the supreme God who is the ultimate reality. Therefore, Arjuna, shake off all the illusion and strike. You will achieve me.
4. I have read the responses of Rahman who to me is a "open-minded believer." He does not believe in various sects among the Muslims. The logical conclusion can then be drawn that he does not support the Saudi action of shutting down the Shiite mosques in the Kingdom. I am sure he also does not support the Saudi policy of not allowing a person to carry a non-Islamic religious scripture to Mecca. I am sure he seeks much more freedom for women than is currently being allowed in the Kingdom.
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: `Killing Kafir' by Syed Kamran Mirza
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: `Killing Kafir' by Syed Kamran Mirza
Are you saying those who killed our brothers and raped our sisters during 1971 should be entertained with dinner invitations? Are you saying over 17 people who were put to death in the US for murder and related crimes (This year until now) should go free? Are we talking about giving warm meals to Nazis who killed over 20 million people during world war ll?
Maybe this is news to "Rainbow coalition" or "Tree hugging community" but in REAL WORLD even very peaceful communities have to establish fairness and justice (Which may include killing criminals).
Maybe Syedjada ( Kamran Mirza) was trying to convince his "Bubblegum troopers" to by this very immature comments and it would be ONLY accepted by those who live in "Rainbow communities" in comic books.
God NEVER asked anyone to kill an innocent soul. In Islam it says if someone saved an innocent soul as if he/she saved humankind. [ Source: Al Qur'an 5:32 ].
And throughout the Qur'an the message has been CONSISTENT. Killing is ONLY allowed to punish criminals or in self defense.
As simple as that. I have all the respect and compassion for those who do not support killing of another human but in real world throughout history says this sort of wish lists do not work in our world.
Neither do I support killing of innocent people. Killing can ONLY be justified if it saves innocent lives. Even when a wild tiger kills human being, governments of the world allows to kill that tiger.
God is FREE of all needs for the world. He does not depend on our actions!!
As per Islam IF anyone kills or tortures another innocent human being, he/she only tortured his/her own souls. Without "Due process" NO type of killings are approved by Islam either. If someone claims otherwise, he/she does not know what he/she is talking about.
Shalom!
Maybe this is news to "Rainbow coalition" or "Tree hugging community" but in REAL WORLD even very peaceful communities have to establish fairness and justice (Which may include killing criminals).
Maybe Syedjada ( Kamran Mirza) was trying to convince his "Bubblegum troopers" to by this very immature comments and it would be ONLY accepted by those who live in "Rainbow communities" in comic books.
God NEVER asked anyone to kill an innocent soul. In Islam it says if someone saved an innocent soul as if he/she saved humankind. [ Source: Al Qur'an 5:32 ].
And throughout the Qur'an the message has been CONSISTENT. Killing is ONLY allowed to punish criminals or in self defense.
As simple as that. I have all the respect and compassion for those who do not support killing of another human but in real world throughout history says this sort of wish lists do not work in our world.
Neither do I support killing of innocent people. Killing can ONLY be justified if it saves innocent lives. Even when a wild tiger kills human being, governments of the world allows to kill that tiger.
God is FREE of all needs for the world. He does not depend on our actions!!
As per Islam IF anyone kills or tortures another innocent human being, he/she only tortured his/her own souls. Without "Due process" NO type of killings are approved by Islam either. If someone claims otherwise, he/she does not know what he/she is talking about.
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 5:09 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: `Killing Kafir' by Syed Kamran Mirza
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, May 10, 2012 5:09 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: `Killing Kafir' by Syed Kamran Mirza
Allah or any other deity is nothing more than a tribal god. Being tribal, no god is almighty. Killing is and was necessary for the survival of the one who kills. If you are a carnivore, you kill animals; if you are a herbivore, you kill the plants. You may or may not need to invoke the name of god to justify your deed, depending on your faith or lack of it. With faith, however, you are destined to fool's heaven.
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Masthan <masthangm@yahoo.com> wrote:
learn quran and hadees properly, as you mentioned out of context, your thinking is limited to the circle.
may almighty Allah show you the right path.
regards
Masthan
--- In mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com, "Alternatif2000" wrote:
>
> `Killing Kafir' by Syed Kamran Mirza - www.ezboard.com
>
> Killing Kafir
>
> Syed Kamran Mirza
>
> In the theological dogmas of Islam there are plenty of unanswered questions
> to which most apologists play same old game of sidetracking and putting lame
> excuse to the ?out of context?, or ?faulty Quranic translations?. Among
> them, I like to discuss one question about which I have been
> asking/searching the truth for long time, but till today nobody could give
> me satisfactory answer. This is the question of ?killing/slaying? human
> being by another human being by the order of Almighty God! Several years
> back when I read Holy Quran from beginning to end, I was totally dismayed
> when I found Allah telling/advocating to ?kill? another human being by
> numerous Ayats. I could not conceive this idea of insisting by Allah to kill
> somebody. How come? Question which bothered me most is why an
> omnipotent/almighty God will ask for killing human being? Who knows, may be
> this advice by Allah to ?kill Kaffirs? is working as the main
> fuel/ingredients behind the very spirit of Islamic Jihad?helping create more
> and more Osama Bin laden and other potential terrorists?
>
> My father used to read Quran twice a day (after Fazr and before Magreb) with
> so much devotion until his death. One day I asked him if he (my father)
> understand what he was reciting with such a melody and devotions. My father?
> s answer was negative. My father did not understand a single word of what he
> was reciting daily. Now I can count how many thousands of times he uttered
> the word ?killing?, of course, with sweet melody. We can even count how many
> trillion trillion times this word of ?killing? is being uttered by devout
> Muslims throughout the whole world.
>
> Let me cite an example to illustrate this better: Say I am the owner of a
> flock of 100 Cattle. These hundred Cattle are mine, I am the sole owner, and
> by virtue/authority of my ownership, I have every right to do, what ever I
> want to do with these 100 Cattle. Now, if in the course of time, I find that
> some Cattle have become very destructive and wicked up to a degree that
> these Cattle are out of control. Then, I have two choices in front of me to
> handle these wicked Cattle: (a) tell other good and docile Cattle to kill
> those wicked and unruly Cattle by their sharp horns, or (b) because of my
> authority, I sell them or killed (Zabai kare khaeyya felba) those cattle and
> invite friends to a feast. Quite obviously, I will choose (b), and never
> will advocate poor Cattle to kill those wicked Cattle, right? But here in
> the God business of correcting wicked people, I really do not find any logic
> why Omnipotent God should ask human (who are less than Cattle to God) to
> kill other wicked humans. This problem of disobedient by some humans is so
> little problem for an Omnipotent/almighty Allah that, it should take only a
> wishful thinking for Him to correct all Kaffirs. Does any reader see any
> logic to it? So far, I could not get any logical/convincing answer from any
> apologists to this very dynamic question.
>
> I cannot believe that, God can really ask human being to kill/slay another
> human being! The center of my question is not the word ?killing,? but WHO
> actually is asking for ?Killing.? This ?WHO? is nobody but
> OMNIPOTENT/ALMIGHTY GOD. Is Allah telling/advocating to ?kill? another human
> being by numerous Qur?anic Ayats? I could not conceive this idea that Allah
> is insisting his creation to kill somebody who is also his creation.
> Question that bothered me the most is why an Omnipotent/Almighty and
> Merciful God will ask for killing human being. Why then He is called a
> Merciful? Omnipotent God is not like human being of flesh and blood that He
> will take revenge through others. Even the mother of a serial killer will
> not ask others to kill her son, rather she will ask for forgiveness. Is
> Almighty God crueler or weaker than the mother of a serial killer?
>
> Of course, if these killing orders (i.e., Ayats like: 9:5, 2.191, 5.33.or
> 2.193) have had come from Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself then, I would not
> ask this question. Because, Prophet Muhammad was also a human being of flesh
> and blood, and in need, he also can ask for necessary killings. Apologist?s
> example/comparisons with history of mankind --killing by American Civil War,
> battle of Kurukhetra or Hitler, Yahya Khan, Tikka Khan, Winston Churchill,
> etc., would fit here very well. Because, these are simply earthly (parthive)
> happenings and humans are not omnipotent/almighty by any standard. Human
> cannot achieve something simply by wishful thinking like an Omnipotent God.
> But God of course can achieve something simply by His wish. As we are told
> in Quran that, ?Of course if Allah (swt) wills He can create anything just
> by saying ?Qun? (Be) and it exists. Likewise Allah (swt) can destroy at
> will.? If we are to believe the text of preceding quotation by Maoulanas
> then we cannot find any validity of asking by God to kill anybody. God
> Himself can kill them by His killer Angel AZRAEL. Or, Omnipotent God simply
> can correct every anomaly by His wishes, period. He should not need anybody?
> s help.
>
> Another new question has generated by the Qur?anic Ayat quoted by most
> Apologists. That is, ?Let there be no compulsion in religion? (Quran-2:
> 256). This Ayat is used repeatedly by all apologists like a broken record to
> claim Islam?s tolerance to others, although, there are hundreds of Qur?anic
> Ayats and Sahih hadiths (which apologists hardly disclose) which prove
> otherwise. My humble questions here to all apologists are: What is the
> punishment of an apostate as per Islamic Sharia? Isn?t the punishment of an
> apostate is death by stoning? Why in Saudi Arabia all other religious
> activities except Islam are completely prohibited? Why very recently Saudi
> Government has closed Shiite Mosque in Saudi Arabia? Why then early
> propagators of Islam had to fight so many bloody battles both defensively
> and offensively?
>
> What is the difference between the code of King Hammurabi of Mesopotamia
> (2900 B.C): Killing for revenge, i. e., ?life for life, hand for hand, eye
> for eye, ears for ears, tooth for tooth and wounds equal for equal?, and the
> Allah?s Guidance of Qur?anic Ayat: 5:45, i.e. ?life for life, hand for hand,
> eye for eye, ear for ear, tooth for tooth and wounds equal for equal.? Do we
> see any similarities between the judgment of King Hammurabi (a human), and
> Omnipotent Allah? Here in this decree of judgement, who probably copied from
> whom?
>
> Most important and mysterious questions for us to ponder are: Why Muhammad
> (pbuh), the prophet of God, needed to insist/ask people to fight/kill fellow
> people violently? And why did he lure Islamic believers that they will get
> Jannat el-Ferdous if they kill kaffirs? Why on the other hand, another
> Prophet of the same God Jesus Christ said, ?He who live by the sword will
> die by the sword? or ?If you get slapped on your right cheek then give your
> left cheek for the another slap.? Why Jesus asked people to conquer the
> hearts of enemies by their love? Why did Mahatma Gandhi asked people not to
> attack/kill the enemies but to tolerate all tortures? Was Gandhi or Jesus a
> better person than the omnipotent who goes by the name Rahman-ur-Rahim (Kind
> and forgiving)?
>
> As a child, we were told by the clerics back home that Almighty Allah has
> 100 names. The two names show up side-by-side in the book Niam-ul-Qur?an (By
> Moulvi Mohammad Shamsul Huda) page 20. One of the names is Ya-Gaffaru (Oh,
> forgiver!). The other name mentioned next to it is Ya-Kah-haru (Oh, big
> punisher). The Mullahs of the world should know better that the Almighty
> couldn?t be both all at the same time. Whether we like it or not, Jesus
> seems to have opted for the forgiving part of Allah, whereas, our
> Payare-Nabi Mustafa Karim (pbuh) had shown his proclivity to mete out
> punishment and thus opting for the title Kah-haru. No wonder so many
> bystanders Arab had to be murdered in the broad daylight because they had
> their nagging doubts about the divinity of Muhammad (pbuh).
>
> The bottom line in this ongoing debate is the following: It would be quite
> unjust for the CREATOR to approve killing of his creations by his own
> creation. If He thinks that some creations are becoming unruly, and are
> deviating from the Seerut-al-Mustaquim, then, why can?t He come down from
> his Arash to this lowly place call Arda (Earth) and do the killing Himself?
> He most certainly has ever-ready Azrael under His arm. But could it be that
> poor Azrael is too tired doing his job from the time immemorial! In that
> case, Allah is very wise to tell us that we men should kill another fellow
> human being because in His infinite wisdom He thought we are the right
> persons for this job. What a cruel joke this Almighty is playing on us!
>
__._,_.___
