>>>>>>>> I have never been talking on behalf of all people. HOWEVER the religion of Islam do ask women (And men) to maintain "Modesty" in dress. Hijab is a requirement for women in Islam. Yes, I am well aware of SOME cases where people are forced to wear Hijab and I am ALSO aware of SOME cases where women were forced to take it off. Well I feel Islam requires us to explain the concept to people, it is up to them how far they will take it. In Bangladesh most people I know do wear hijab willingly and I also know some women who do not wear hijab willingly.
If you do not want to believe my personal story (Which was used as an example), you are more than welcome to have that opinion. I have no compulsion to prove me in front of you in cyber space. If we even meet in "Real life", you can ask her. No problem.
Hojab forcing issue is still mostly seen in rural area and that is why I am a big supporter of education other than forcing religion unto people.
Now, religious people, especially males, are not thinking about the implication of this religious doctrine. As I said before, God has given women abundant structural beauty and gracefulness. How about the freedom of expression of those God-given heavenly qualities? Can women dance (classical, ballet, etc.) gracefully wearing Hijab? Can they take part in athletic endeavor (diving, swimming, gymnastics, etc.) in which she is competent wearing Hijab?
>>>>>> Yes they can and (When we are talking about women) they are asked to do it either "Close family members" or in front of other women. In Iran women are a huge part of their army and they are active in most sports as well. It also have more women getting PHDs than men for quite a few years now.
Now there are certain areas of the world where "Culture" becomes an obstacle for women. Things are improving now a days.
>>>>>>>>> :-) if you keep asking and answering question at the same time, I guess you are NOT ready for any alternative point of view. Which is kinda feels like some of us are not as "Liberal" as we like to thing of us.
Anyway, SOME religious views are wrong and some are "Right". Also people defer on "Values". So in north Africa, more people agree on hijab but in central Asia it is not accepted.
>>>>>>>>> Member Das has been proven wrong on most of his "Opinions". He rarely proven anything. However I respect his right to have an opinion. Which has been consistently against Islamic point of views. So it is as "Authentic" as Nazi opinion on Jewish people. Or Jammat-e-Islami's opinion on RSS, India. ;-)
As I mentioned before some religious view can be wrong. I can only speak for my own findings. So far I found Islamic point views (Based on scriptures not political leaders) are logical and have no conflict with universal values.
Lastly, I said it before ( In my last post) " Now if you or someone is not "faith based" person, it does not apply and you are FREE to find your own explanation. Whatever floats your boat!! "
Shalom!
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, May 28, 2012 3:27 am
Subject: [mukto-mona] Re: HIJAB is not a part of the religion
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: MuslimsTogether :: al Azhar confirms HIJAB is not a part of the religion---This is sheer propaganda. A statement of a Ph D thesis can not change the ruling of the scholars of all times.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, May 27, 2012, 4:06 PM
Above statements are faith-based. That's what your belief is, which has, at best, 50% probability of being correct. In my view, your arguments have holes in it, which you cannot see, obviously due to your faith. Let me point it out. As per your argument, every good thing that happens to us is God's endowment. I know I discussed this point before, let me do it again. If that logic is valid then - why do some people get so much blessings from God without much effort, while others struggle all their lives? It's not because of their faithfulness to God, because many of them are not that faithful at all. Also tell me - why do so many innocent kids suffer from birth others don't?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason I spoke about Islam is the concept of "Hijab" comes from Islam. Islamic point of view is relevant to the discussion of Hijab. Yes, some of the statements are faith base because the topic was faith based. Plenty of times I have shared 'Secular" opinions here when we discuss politics. I have to bring Islam if you comment about Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) or Hijab or even jihad. It is only common sense!!
Now why good people suffer in this world? It is a question that dogged me for many years. The "religious" answer has to be understood if you understand as per Islam this "World" is a temporary place for us. We can also verify it "Scientifically" because none of our forefathers are alive who were with Emperor Akbar or bahadur Shah Jafor (The last Mughal leader). As per RELIGION, the hereafter is the place where "Justice" will be done to ALL people. The Qur'an spoke about it in many places and gave verifiable clues about authenticity of the message of the Qur'an. It is the ONLY religious book that challenged it's readers since revelation about it's own unique qualities and authenticity.
Now if you or someone is not "faith based" person, it does not apply and you are FREE to find your own explanation. Whatever floats your boat!!
So far none of "Alternative" explanations sounded "Fair" to me. (Again talking about person opinion here).
Now, let me give you my opinion. My God is totally indifferent of what we do here on this earth. We are all free to do anything we want. All that He cares about is - what we bring to him at the end of our journey. That's it. Your round skullcap and long dress or your long Hijab or your saffron garb will not go with you at the end of your journey, but your deeds will.
>>>>>>> I find myself in agreement with PARTS of your opinion. Yes, our worldly "Good deeds" will help us when I stand in front of my Maker in the "Day of judgement".
Therefore, what you do under the veil is the most important part of your life. God gave women unprecedented beauty. He did not give you the right to force or coerce them to cover it. Let them enjoy their god-given beauty. Let's give them freedom to wear whatever they feel like. That's what my God tells me.
I have NEVER forced anyone to wear any veil. For example, my wife used to observe hijab before I met her. In fact she refused prior "Lucrative" proposals when the man's family wanted to "Unveil" her. This is story of my own life!!
When I grew up in Bangladesh, all most all young women in my family did NOT wear Hijab. Today after researching religious information and verifying them, most of them do observe "Hijab" requirements and NO one is ever forced about it. In fact many of them live in the western world and are professionals, so they cannot be "Forced". Often women share there stories of Hijab and other's follow them. So today many highly educated women and men are aware of hijab/modesty requirement and keep it. The good news is they are increasingly standing up to religious intolerant groups. They are going back to authentic history of Islam (Now a days much easier to access information about theology) and showcasing true peace loving nature of Islam. That is why, Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe and North America today.
1. Looks like Hindus also credit God for "every good blessing".
>>>>>>> Yes, I knew that but could not remember the verses when I wrote the post and thank you for reminding me with the verse from the scripture.
2. If Mr. Rahman is right when he says that different cultures are the results of God's wish and they are just for the sake of diversity, then the claims (mine or ours is the best) of the religious chauvinists fall apart. Is Mr. Rahman's assertion tenable?
>>>>>>>>> (Speaking from Islamic point of view here) God permits diversity and that is the message of the Qur'an. God also encourages people to accept the "The oldest original faith of Islam". So no matter where people are born, as long they are getting information about Islam and their heart says it is the true religion, the door of heaven is open for them via accepting the true faith. Again I stress we are talking about how Islam views these ideas. I am NOT preaching my faith to you just EXPLAINING the point of view.
From the very first post, my goal is the EXPLAIN my faith to people who want to discuss Islam but do not have solid information about Islam. To me my religion "Works" for ME but if it does not work for others, I am absolutely OK with it.
After reading about the topic, I found out accepting Islam is a PERSONAL choice and forcing anyone is against the teaching of Islam. [ Source: Al Qur'an 2:256]. So if you feel your religion or your ideas work for you, I am happy for you. The only logical request I can make to everyone is, if you want to have an opinion about Islam, please study it first. So you end up with an informed opinion. I have been sharing information about Islam in this forum and willing to add to discussions about Islam. What you are going to do with it, will be unto YOU!!
Therefore, I would say, I do not have any chauvinist attitude about any faith. To me mine works and I hope your works for you.
4. Bhagwan is mangalmoy. But the irony is that even hundreds of thousands of innocent children are washed away by the God created Tsunami--- Roy has challenged Rahman's belief. Religions, however, have answers. You only need to invoke the concepts of heaven, hell, sin, piety, afterlife, rebirth, and so on.
>>>>>> If you do not subscribe to any faith, you need not to worry about what faith based people say about it. As long faith based people do not cause "Tsunami" it is none of our businesses. When an atheist Dr. Jeffrey Lang (Math prof at University of Kansas) read the Qur'an, he reverted to Islam. Because he found answers to his question where Christianity failed to offer him any acceptable answer. So based on common sense one can only reject the Qur'an, if he/she read it carefully. Otherwise rejection without knowledge does not have much credibility.
5. The two belief levels (Roy's and Rahman's) are interesting. The former's God does not care about moral or ethical values while the latter's does. One enjoys absolute freedom while the other one gets enjoy constrained freedom.
>>>>>>>>> Good observation. I'll just add that, NO ONE has "Absolute freedom". If you live in the USA, you have to pay taxes, obey state laws and federal laws. If you live in India or Bangladesh, you have to follow their laws as well. If you live in Saudi Arabia, you have to follow laws of the land.
Then if you live in certain communities, you have to obey common laws of those communities. For example, in Israel orthodox Jews observe their understanding of "Modest attire". You cannot wear your beach gear in those communities, you will get your butt kicked!! :-)
Lastly I'll say, ultimate "Peace" and ultimate "Freedom" is just illusions of our own mind. If we start thinking from a blank page (Without prejudices), you will see there are many world views worth learning. Islam happen to be the only religion which offers a complete code of life. To educated Muslims, it leads to personal peace. Having a peaceful life is very important. Read the following article....
MY BODY IS MY OWN BUSINESS
By Naheed Mustafa
Shalom/salaam/peace.
-----Original Message-----
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, May 27, 2012 3:36 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: MuslimsTogether :: al Azhar confirms HIJAB is not a part of the religion---This is sheer propaganda. A statement of a Ph D thesis can not change the ruling of the scholars of all times.
SHIVE SARVATHASAADHIKE,
SHARANYE TRIYAMBAKE GAURI
NARAAYANI NAMOSTUTE."
Thou art the all auspicious Shiva (Shakti aspect), the bountiful;
I prostrate myself at Thy feet.
O Triyambaks (Three eyed one), Gauri (the one with a fair complexion, Parvathi) Naraayani.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: MuslimsTogether :: al Azhar confirms HIJAB is not a part of the religion---This is sheer propaganda. A statement of a Ph D thesis can not change the ruling of the scholars of all times.
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: MuslimsTogether :: al Azhar confirms HIJAB is not a part of the religion---This is sheer propaganda. A statement of a Ph D thesis can not change the ruling of the scholars of all times.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, May 26, 2012, 6:27 AM
As a critic, I think Hijab is a cultural object, not a religious issue at all. Remember - Allah did not invent clothing or dress. Clothing is the cultural development of humankind.
>>>>>>>> Well that is NOT how Muslims view it. Maybe it is view of atheists or Hindus but Muslims (Christians and Jews) credits God for every good blessings we have. Even different cultures are results of God's wish. If it was His wish, we would have spoken the same language but He wanted to have diversity in us. There is a beautiful verse in the Qur'an (President Clinton's favorite!).
God could care less if we wear something or nothing on this earth. Obviously, you cannot envision this logic because of your faith. I have no such obligation, so I can see the logic very clearly >>>>>>>>> As I posted verses from the Qur'an earlier saying God is NOT dependent on how we act here. All the "Laws" are there to help us out. So I can and I do understand what you are saying here. God gave us 'Free will", so you are welcome to obey Him or disobey Him. It will make NO difference to Him or even me. ;-)
I know – you will say – Hijab is good for the protection of woman.
>>>>>>>> it looks like you did not READ my last post, before you decided to REPLY to it. Anyway the concept of Hijab applies to both men and women ( I have quoted verses as well). It protects both people for being modest. As I said, it is not an "Islamic" invention. Similar dress codes have been discussed in multiple leading religious scriptures.
How many sexual assault stories have you heard from people living in the nudist colonies? How many sexual assault stories did come out from the tribes living in the jungle? I can't recollect any. Can you?
>>>>>>>>> I used to think most atheists are fan of logic and knowledge. I stand humbled and corrected.
Here you "ASSumed" my answer than proceeded to reply to it!!! :-)
Anyway, how many nudist colonies and jungle people have modern police stations?
Since you live in the USA, do know that, if you go to a police station without clothing, you will be arrested right away. It is against the LAW of the USA (Unless you are inside nudist colonies and USA has fewer of them than Europe).
If majority nudist population had sexual assault as a "Concern", they would not have lived in nude in the first place. Here you are trying make comments AGAINST human nature. If people did not have sexual urge seeing naked people, porn and nudist publications would have been out of business. Last time I checked, it is a multi-billion dollar industry.
A ten year old report claimed more than 2,50,000 American women are engaged in nude clubs and Prostitution. Guess when you "Shake your money maker" and money comes, you cannot keep assuming otherwise.
Take it easy. :-D
Shalom!!
-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, May 26, 2012 7:43 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: MuslimsTogether :: al Azhar confirms HIJAB is not a part of the religion---This is sheer propaganda. A statement of a Ph D thesis can not change the ruling of the scholars of all times.
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: MuslimsTogether :: al Azhar confirms HIJAB is not a part of the religion---This is sheer propaganda. A statement of a Ph D thesis can not change the ruling of the scholars of all times.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 25, 2012, 10:57 AM
If you want to learn about Islam, kindly ask Muslims for it. As far as Hijab is concern, it is part of the Qur'an. For last 1400 years most scholars of Islam (Around 99%) agrees on Hijab requirement. Even those Muslima who do not observe hijab, even they know it is a requirement. In Bangladesh most women have the freedom to observe hijab or not observing it. But to say, it is not part of Islam comes from ignorance.
It is equally important to note, veil (Or Hijab) is one part of it. We have to keep our hearts pure and "Protected" to reflect true teachings of Islam. If someone wears cap or Hijab but wishes bad for his/her neighbor, he/she cannot be a good Muslim. If our non-Muslim neighbors are not safe from our greed, it is better not worry about Hijab. Also the very first "Hijab verse" speaks to Muslim men (Not women) asking to lower his gaze.
[ Source: Al Qur'an 24:30]
[ Source: Al Qur'an 24:31]
HIJAB IN THE WORKPLACE
and a liberal western view on veil. MY BODY IS MY OWN BUSINESS
By Naheed Mustafa
Shalom!
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: MuslimsTogether :: al Azhar confirms HIJAB is not a part of the religion---This is sheer propaganda. A statement of a Ph D thesis can not change the ruling of the scholars of all times.
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, May 24, 2012, 9:39 PM
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 9:44 PM
To: undisclosed-recipients:
Subject: MuslimsTogether :: al Azhar confirms HIJAB is not a part of the religion
Finally al Azhar clarifies its position and announces that hijab has nothing to do with religion
al Azhar's endorsed Sheikh Mustafa Mohamed Rashid's PhD thesis on Sharia and Law for which he obtained a grade of excellent, where he stated that hijab is not an Islamic requirement (fard), and that the interpretation (tafseer) of the verses (ayat) and the circumstances during which they appeared has led to the widespread misunderstanding about the so-called 'Islamic Hijab' denoting covering the head, of which there is absolutely no mention in the Quran.
Yet some have misconstrued the intent and correct interpretation of the Sharia, refusing the logic and sequence of its appearance, abandoning the proper methods of citing and interpreting of the verses (ayat), their historical background and reason for them. They have done so either intentionally, or with good intention but with lack of the essential analytical savvy.
This hijab issue imposed itself on the Islamic and non-Islamic psyche, and thus becoming the defining factor, meaning, and nature of the Islamic faith to non-Muslims, which led some non-Islamic nations to consider it a divisive political statement. In consequence to the resulting friction, some female students have been expelled from universities and jobs, only due to their adherence to this false belief, thereby attaching to Islam a non existent requirement.
So inconsistent and misguided have the proofs of the supporters of the hijab theory been, that it would sometimes take the form of khimar or jalabeeb, which distanced them from what they meant by head cover, which is indicative of their restrictive set of mind.
'Hijab' was mentioned in verse (ayah) 53 of al AHzab, where it signifies 'wall' or 'what prevents view' and it was in regards to pure "ummuhat al mo'mineen" where a "hajib" is to be placed between them and any men.
As for verse (ayah) 31 of Al Khimar - Sourrat al Noor, that is also a redundant claim, as the intent here is the cover of the breast and neck - the background here is the covering of the breast whose exposure is un-Islamic, and not what is now understood by hijab for the head.
And in regards to the historical background of verse (ayah) 59 of Sourrat al AHzab was to distinguish between the pure and the promiscuous whores and slaves.
Finally, in the mis-use of the Hadith about Asma'a, daughter of Abu Bakr, when she walked in on the prophet (pbuh)s gathering, and he ordered her to not expose her face or palms - this Hadith is not a binding Hadith, as it is one of al AHaad and not one of the consistent, or the connected confirmed.
TRANSLATION BY GEHAN A F D SABRYGehanex co- host Islam Faith & CultureS POB 20002 Kitchener ON N2P 2B4 Tel: 519- 893-4259 email: islam.fm@bellnet.ca
Thu, 17 May 2012 18:33:05 +0200
الازهر يؤكد : الحجاب ليس من الدين
موافقة الازهر على هذا الرأى جاءت فى منحه درجة الدكتورة للشيخ مصطفى محمد راشد في الشريعة والقانون بتقدير عام امتياز،فى رسالة قال الشيخ مصطفى فيها ان الحجاب ليس فريضة اسلامية..
وان تفسير الايات بمعزل عن ظروفها التاريخية، واسباب نزولها قد ادى إلى فهم مغلوط شاع وانتشر بشكل كبير حول ما يسمى بـ«الحجاب الاسلامي!»، والمراد به غطاء الرأس الذي لم يذكر لفظه في القرآن الكريم على الاطلاق
الا ان البعض قد اختزل مقاصد الشريعة الاسلامية وصحيح التفسير ورفض إعمال العقل في نقله وتفسيره، وأورد النصوص في غير موضعها وفسرها على هواه، مبتعدا عن المنهج الصحيح في التفسير والاستدلال الذي يفسر الآيات وفقا لظروفها التاريخية وتبعا لأسباب نزولها، إما لرغبتهم وقصدهم ان يكون التفسير هكذا، واما لحسن نيتهم لأن قدراتهم التحليلية تتوقف إمكانات فهمها عند هذا الحد لعوار عقلي أو آفة نفسية.
باتت مسألة «الحجاب!» تفرض نفسها على العقل الاسلامي وغير الاسلامي، وامست مقياسا وتحديدا لمقصد ومعنى وطبيعة الدين الاسلامي في نظر غير المسلمين مما حدا ببعض الدول غير الاسلامية الى اعتبار «الحجاب!» شعارا سياسيا يؤدي إلى التفرقة بين المواطنين والتمييز بينهم، وقد حدثت مصادمات، وفصل من الجامعات والوظائف بسبب تمسك المسلمة بفهم خاطئ لما يسمى «الحجاب!»، وتحميل للاسلام بما لم يأت به من دعوى انه فريضة اسلامية.
جاءت ادلة من يرون فرضية «الحجاب!» متخبطة وغير مرتبطة، مرة بمعنى الحجاب، وتارة بمعنى الخمار، واخرى بمعنى الجلابيب، وهو ما يوضح ابتعادهم عن المعنى الصحيح الذي يقصدونه وهو غطاء الرأس، وانهم يريدون انزال الحكم بأي شكل لهوى عندهم، وقد ورد ذكر «الحجاب!» في الآية رقم (53) من سورة الاحزاب، والمقصود به الحائط أو الساتر، وهو متعلق بأمهات المؤمنين الطاهرات المطهرات ووجوب وضع ساتر بينهن وبين الرجال من صحابة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم، اما الاستدلال بآية الخمار التي وردت في سورة النور في الآية رقم (31) فهو أيضا استدلال باطل لأن المقصود بها وجوب ستر النحر وهو اعلى الصدر وستر العنق ايضا، وعلة نزول تلك الآية الكريمة، تصحيح وتعديل وضع خاطئ كان سائدا وقائما وقت نزولها وهو كشف صدر المرأة وهي صورة يرفضها الاسلام ومن ثم قصدت الاية تغطية الصدر وليس غطاء الرأس كما يسميه الناس الآن «الحجاب!».
اما الاستدلال بآية الجلابيب التي وردت في سورة الاحزاب في الآية رقم (59)، فإن سبب نزول الآية ان عادة النساء وقت التنزيل كانت كشف وجوههن مثل الإماء أو الجواري، فكان بعض الفجار يسترقون النظر إلى النساء فنزلت تلك الآية لتضع فارقا وتمييزا بين الحرائر والإماء الجواري حتى لا تتأذى الحرة المؤمنة العفيفة.
واخيرا استدلال البعض بحديث أسماء بنت ابي بكر رضي الله عنهما عندما دخلت على رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فأمرها بأن لا تكشف الا عن وجهها وكفيها، كدليل على فرضية «الحجاب!» أي غطاء الرأس، فهو استدلال لا يعتد به لأن هذا الحديث من احاديث الآحاد، وليس من الاحاديث المتواترة أو المتصلة السند، لكنه حديث آحاد لم يتصل سنده بالعدول الضابط
__._,_.___
****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration:
Call For Articles:
http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68
http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585
****************************************************
VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/
****************************************************
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
-Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
__,_._,___
Monday, May 28, 2012
Re: [mukto-mona] Re: HIJAB is not a part of the religion
Q. Rahman's wife insisted on Hijab. Those who wear Hijab do so willingly, and no one is forcing anyone to do so. Is it so? I happened to think otherwise. The truth is - these women are veiling themselves out of fear of religious reprisal in the afterworld. How did they get inflicted with this fear?
What's the religious justification for Hijab anyway? As far as I know, it's the sexuality of the woman, at the cost of so many other wonderful qualities of woman?
Final question is - can some religious views be wrong? The answer is YES.
In the last post of Dr. Das, he has pointed out some of the religious views that are proven wrong by the modern science. If we can accept those changes, how can we claim absoluteness of the religious views at the same time? The logic is simple. Isn't it?
-----Original Message-----
Q. Rahman's wife insisted on Hijab. Those who wear Hijab do so willingly, and no one is forcing anyone to do so. Is it so? I happened to think otherwise. The truth is - these women are veiling themselves out of fear of religious reprisal in the afterworld. How did they get inflicted with this fear?
Now, religious people, especially males, are not thinking about the implication of this religious doctrine. As I said before, God has given women abundant structural beauty and gracefulness. How about the freedom of expression of those God-given heavenly qualities? Can women dance (classical, ballet, etc.) gracefully wearing Hijab? Can they take part in athletic endeavor (diving, swimming, gymnastics, etc.) in which she is competent wearing Hijab? Did religion take any of these issues into account while prescribing Hijab? Definitely not. What's the religious justification for Hijab anyway? As far as I know, it's the sexuality of the woman, at the cost of so many other wonderful qualities of woman?
Final question is - can some religious views be wrong? The answer is YES.
In the last post of Dr. Das, he has pointed out some of the religious views that are proven wrong by the modern science. If we can accept those changes, how can we claim absoluteness of the religious views at the same time? The logic is simple. Isn't it?
Thanks.
Jiten Roy
Thanks for replying to my post member Subimal and Roy. I'll share my two cents below...
>>>>>>>>> Well, again your assumed about parts of "Me" and wrong about it.
"SARVAMANGALAMANGALYE
MEANING
1. Looks like Hindus also credit God for "every good blessing".
2. If Mr. Rahman is right when he says that different cultures are the results of God's wish and they are just for the sake of diversity, then the claims (mine or ours is the best) of the religious chauvinists fall apart. Is Mr. Rahman's assertion tenable?
3. Value judgement of Rahman's faithbased assertion is next to impossible as values are subjective and also everchanging both temporally and spatially.
4. Bhagwan is mangalmoy. But the irony is that even hundreds of thousands of innocent children are washed away by the God created Tsunami--- Roy has challenged Rahman's belief. Religions, however, have answers. You only need to invoke the concepts of heaven, hell, sin, piety, afterlife, rebirth, and so on.
5. The two belief levels (Roy's and Rahman's) are interesting. The former's God does not care about moral or ethical values while the latter's does. One enjoys absolute freedom while the other one gets enjoy constrained freedom.
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
"Muslims (Christians and Jews) credits God for every good blessings we have. Even different cultures are results of God's wish. If it was His wish, we would have spoken the same language but He wanted to have diversity in us."
Above statements are faith-based. That's what your belief is, which has, at best, 50% probability of being correct. In my view, your arguments have holes in it, which you cannot see, obviously due to your faith. Let me point it out. As per your argument, every good thing that happens to us is God's endowment. I know I discussed this point before, let me do it again. If that logic is valid then - why do some people get so much blessings from God without much effort, while others struggle all their lives? It's not because of their faithfulness to God, because many of them are not that faithful at all. Also tell me - why do so many innocent kids suffer from birth others don't?
Now, let me give you my opinion. My God is totally indifferent of what we do here on this earth. We are all free to do anything we want. All that He cares about is - what we bring to him at the end of our journey. That's it. Your round skullcap and long dress or your long Hijab or your saffron garb will not go with you at the end of your journey, but your deeds will. Therefore, what you do under the veil is the most important part of your life. God gave women unprecedented beauty. He did not give you the right to force or coerce them to cover it. Let them enjoy their god-given beauty. Let's give them freedom to wear whatever they feel like. That's what my God tells me.
Jiten Roy
--- On Sat, 5/26/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
If I want to hear criticism of Hinduism, I would rather go to a Muslim, not to a Hindu. Don't you agree?
>>>>>>>>> No I do not agree. If you read my posts for last 4 months, you will rarely see any criticism of Hinduism, Judaism or Christianity. If I mention them in our discussion, I provide references from their own scriptures FIRST. May be it is your "Assumption" that, Muslims and Hindus will always be against each other, so they will also be "Critical" or each others. That is very shallow way of looking at our discussions. I only try to explain what Islam says because I found out most people are not even aware of the topics they discuss here. So most of the time it is like "Blind leading blind" here. I supply information about topic I am aware of and let people make up their minds. In fact, I am quite critical of Muslims when I feel they made a wrong move in real life or cyber life. Of course – criticism of a critic may not always be accurate, which can be debated, but the criticism will be superior to the sugarcoated answer from a supporter.
>>>>>>>>> As long criticism is based on solid knowledge of any topic,I welcome it. Any honest comments are welcome, as long you have knowledge of the subject and your intention is good.
Q. Rahman Said: "If you want to learn about Islam, kindly ask Muslims for it. As far as Hijab is concern, it is part of the Qur'an. For last 1400 years most scholars of Islam (Around 99%) agrees on Hijab requirement."
Expected answers from Muslims will not be any different from what you just said. I wanted to know the other side of the story, which can only be heard from a critic, not from a supporter. If I want to hear criticism of Hinduism, I would rather go to a Muslim, not to a Hindu. Don't you agree?
Of course – criticism of a critic may not always be accurate, which can be debated, but the criticism will be superior to the sugarcoated answer from a supporter.
As a critic, I think Hijab is a cultural object, not a religious issue at all. Remember - Allah did not invent clothing or dress. Clothing is the cultural development of humankind. Many people still live in the jungle; they wear almost nothing. That's how we came from God. Therefore, God could care less if we wear something or nothing on this earth. Obviously, you cannot envision this logic because of your faith. I have no such obligation, so I can see the logic very clearly.
I know – you will say – Hijab is good for the protection of woman.
This is not true at all. More you cover something, more you increase the attraction or curiosity at it. How many times have you seen sexual assault on women on the beach? How many sexual assault stories have you heard from people living in the nudist colonies? How many sexual assault stories did come out from the tribes living in the jungle? I can't recollect any. Can you?
Jiten Roy
--- On Fri, 5/25/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
Member Roy,
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
And the following verse speaks to women...
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, .................................
Even the picture of mother Mary (Displayed by Christians all over the world) shows the veil over her head. Even other prominent religion speaks about veil as well. So it is not even unique requirement of Islam. This requirement also seen in other faiths but many do not practice it. For those who want to practice Islam "Properly" should try to observe Hijab. If not at least be respectful to those who want to stay "Modest" in public. Click on the link below to read an article on the topic. -----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, May 25, 2012 8:13 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] RE: MuslimsTogether :: al Azhar confirms HIJAB is not a part of the religion---This is sheer propaganda. A statement of a Ph D thesis can not change the ruling of the scholars of all times.
Dr. Das Said: " Mr. Hannan is advised to read the comments made by Aisha-bint-Talha regarding the matter."
How about rest of us? You are asking us to read the comment also? It would be appreciated if you could reveal the quote instead of making it a mystery for all of us. We intend to learn from one another. In lieu of that, it only becomes one to one communication as it has been in this case.
Thanks.
Jiten Roy
--- On Thu, 5/24/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
Even children and grand children of the 'rightly guided Caliphs' were against using the hijab. Mr. Hannan is advised to read the comments made by Aisha-bint-Talha regarding the matter.
2012/5/24 S A Hannan <sahannan@sonarbangladesh.com>
This is sheer propaganda. Please give us the whole Ph D thesis for checking. A statement of a Ph D thesis can not change the ruling of the scholars of all times.
Who are these people of WMC? What is their interest?
Shah Abdul Hannan
From: WorldMuslimCongress@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WorldMuslimCongress@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ISLAM
here is my humble interpretation:
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
2976: عدد القراء
الخميس 17 مايو 2012 12:20:02 م
أخيرا حسم الازهر موقفه .. وأعلن صراحة ان الحجاب ليس من الدين فى شىء ..
Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional