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Thursday, June 14, 2012

Re: [mukto-mona] The Stockholm Syndrome -- for Jiten Roy



Agree with your 4Ps. To achieve a perfect synchrony between all these 4Ps is not easy for a developed country, let alone countries like ours. Nevertheless, tremendous progress has been made in this production and supply chain equations and less and less people are suffering from the hunger. No doubt, things can be even better!
-SD 
 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The Stockholm Syndrome -- for Jiten Roy

 
1. Prof. Das is not saying any thing new. Now I have highlighted the broad reasons mentioned in my last message.
2. There is a concept called "4 Ps" (Product, Price, Place, and Promotion) in modern marketing theory. Here "Place" stands for "distribution". These 4 Ps need to be optimized and in that sense all these should be integral parts of a good marketing plan. But in the hands of a stupid or a misguided and dishonest businessman, it may not be so. Instead of placing the output in the hands of the ultimate consumer, temporarily he may go for hoarding. And that is exactly what happened in 1943. Even there is a theory that in 1943 Bengal had enough food to feed every mouth, but distribution (to the consumers) efforts were insufficient due to collusion between vested interest groups.
3. An economy can produce all butter or all guns (using the examples used by Paul Samuelson in explaining the concept of "production possibilities frontier" of an economy) or an optimum mix of these two. Hitler and Stalin produced far more guns than butter needed for the citizens. But neither of the two could be called "development". And it is noteworthy that neither of the two regimes was democratic. Sen cannot be said to be flawed as it is only proper democracy that can ensure proper development. One does not need to be an economist or a student of economics to understand it.
4. We should not overvalue or undervalue an economist. Keynesian model was a great help in getting out of the Great depression.
5. Why only the economists should be on a committee? All sorts of technocrats should be on it. And that is also not enough. They must be guided by a vision. And the visionary does not have to be an economist or an engineer.         

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The Stockholm Syndrome -- for Jiten Roy
The Bengal famine 1943 occurred because the British rulers wanted it.  Transport facilities were not 'engaged in war efforts' as Chakrabarty observes, boats were banned so that 'Azad Hind Fauz' can't infiltrate into Bengal.  Suhrawardy was then food minister.  He awarded the food dealership illegally to Ispahani(and Saha) who raised the food grain price forty folds overnight.  Suhrawardy was made the Prime Minister of Bengal as a reward.  Ispahani became very rich to finance the Calcutta riots, partition of Bengal and other mishaps through the politics of Muslim League. Production and marketing are inseparable.  The businessmen enhance distribution of food or any item for that matter in their own interest unless impeded by the Govt.  Professor Amartya Sen's work on Bengal and Kerala is based on the assumption that the prerequisite of development in any land is democracy.  His theory is inherently flawed and advocates the U.S. Govt. policy in the third world.  Economists have become the high priests of the modern society.  They are the creators of all the woes and not the solvers.  This was understood by Jimmy Carter over three decades ago.  If a committee of economists have five members, they usually come up with five opinions(six if one is a Harvard graduate) on any issue.
On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 10:59 PM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
Farida and Shah are right. Production is not enough. Distribution is also vital. During 1943 famine in Bengal (better known as Panchachher Monwontor) about 15% of Bengalis perished due to shortage of food and related causes. In addition to less production, unethical profit motives, and bad politics, distribution played a major role in this great human tragedy. Timely and proper steps were not taken to supply food from other parts of India. WWII was at it's peak and transportation facilities were heavily engaged in war efforts. Amartya Sen has shed light on it in his theoretical works.

The question is what poverty and what kind? The poverty comes in different forms and they are no less worse than one another. Certain form can and should be addressed as Farida pointed out. If foods are not being stored in critical and secured places and not distributed to the rights places in this era of supply chain revolution, that should be considered as criminal act. I do not think she meant to say that she is after total eradication of poverty. Even one meal per day would be a great achievement for a starving family.
The definition of poverty is also an arbitrary one. An Amazonian tribe member might be very happy to have some bugs, insects and yucca for his/her lunch and consider himself/herself far happier and content than the queen of England. A bamboo hut what he/she needs to sustain his/her life. Is he/she poverty stricken? Hell no! He/she is just better equipped than many of us, who have lost connection with the true reality.
OK, the point is poverty is man made. You fight for your existence, you are not a poverty stricken person! A Darwinian man/woman should be able to survive if he/she combines both his/ her animal and human instincts and applies them intelligently. Waiting to be served would be a bad idea and lead to dismal consequences. That may be the part of the problem?
-SD




 
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2012 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The Stockholm Syndrome -- for Jiten Roy
 
Dr. Das is right - there is no economic system in the world (Socialism, Capitalism, etc.) that can eradicate poverty. What we see in the name of eradicating poverty – is just politics with poverty. For example, current American President is fighting for the poor and middle class in public, and then hosting a dinner party for $35,000 a plate. That's what is going on in this world. You want to get out of poverty; you have to do it yourself. That's the only system that works.
 
Ms. Majid thinks so much about the poor and the downtrodden in India; I can't help but admire her empathy. After all, India may have the largest segment of the poor in the world. I agree, India should do much more to alleviate poverty in India. It just feels odd that she is worried about Indian poor and downtrodden, while we have so many in our own backyard ( e.g., in the slums of Tongi, Sadarghat, Narayongonj, etc.). 
 
Unfortunately, her socialist ideology will not provide solution for the world hunger; it has failed everywhere, even in the birth places of socialism. Capitalism has failed also to eradicate poverty. So, I am afraid - there is no magic bullet, and she may have to bear this lingering pain forever.
 
She feels for workers' rights in the USA. She did not clarify what those rights are. As far as I know - there are laws to deal with the discriminatory practices (sexual, communal, racial, etc.) in the workplace. Workers also have the right to quit the job. In my view, that's the most important right a worker can have. There are countries in the world, where workers are bonded to the employers. Those are slave workers. America also has contract provision also, but it works usually more in favor of the workers. What else she could be complaining about workers' rights in USA. Maybe she was talking about the right to organize. She may be suffering from the defeat in Wisconsin. Those dumb Americans in Wisconsin rejected her socialist ideology. Too bad!
Jiten Roy--- On Sun, 6/10/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] The Stockholm Syndrome -- for Jiten Roy To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 10, 2012, 10:45 PM
 
Most of these 'wise' bloggers here write about things they have leastidea on. India has more poor people than all of Africa combined. Canthe 'wise' lady Ms. Majid suggest a way to eliminate poverty fromanywhere? She might give it a try in her backyard, viz., MadisonSquare Garden, where the homeless, jobless and starving sleep incardboard cartoons.There is hardly any difference between unskilled person and a pest ofthe rodent variety. For every dollar spent on charity, only a coupleof dimes end up to the people who need it.You feed a poor on charity, next thing he does is to 'multiply andinherit the earth', but as J. Paul Getty observed, 'not it'sresources'. One sure way of eliminating poor had been to make themsword rattler, or canon fodder. But in today's world, there are notenough wars.




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