>>>>>>>> As I mentioned earlier that, it is a case of "Long in translation" a bit. For people who were most "Angry" comes from countries with dictators and it is very hard for them to imagine a person could produce such a clip without "Approval" from government. Also note the number of people who violently protested are less than 0.01% of global Muslim population. Maybe it covered 80% of the media headlines for a while but in reality most Muslims are not fan of such abuse against our teachers/gurus/prophets (PBUT) but they don't hurt people.
Fact is we have over 1.7 billion Muslims all over the world and countries with less democratic environments think violence is the only way to protest. So they did it that way. Do note that, Gulf Arab countries are lot more religious, more conservative than Egypt or Libya BUT they did not attack embassies as a "Response" to the movie. Since GCC countries (Most Gulf arab counties except Yemen) are more structured and developed than North African countries. These are subtle observation of mine but I am NOT trying to justify violence ONLY trying explain the causes behind it. Since this way of protesting was not practiced by prophet Muhammad (PBUH) himself!!
To get there, we will need help from the religious leaders.
>>>>>>>>>> As far as I know most leading scholars of Islam spoke up AGAINST violent response. For example the grand Sheikh of Saudi Arabia called it UN-Islamic. They rightfully condemned the u-tube clip as well. Leading scholars like Tareq Ramadan of Europe and North American also spoke very eloquently against such reaction.
Therefore, I feel the shock value of such video will diminish as we go forward and most will learn to ignore it. I know one UK Muslim organization distributed over 1,00,000 books on prophet Muhammad and translated copies of the Qur'an to clarify any misconception/fear of Islam. I know there is no easy solution but overall global Muslims are heading towards right direction and I am hopeful as we mature in very "Connected" world of ours, we'll tamper our reaction with some understanding of the whole ecosystem.
Once against I am in agreement with most of your suggestions and observations on this issue. I just feel it will take some time for Americans to adjust with the Muslims in USA and non-American Muslims to adjust/understand American policies towards their countries. Over time our misunderstandings will reduce and I am hopeful about that.
Shalom!!
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"He will not enter paradise whose neighbor is not secure from his wrongful conduct" – Prophet Muhammad
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 7:46 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>>>> I did NOT say anything about Sri Krisna (READ my post again!) but it was used as an EXAMPLE to make a POINT. I am pretty sure I have some knowledge about Sri Krisna but it is very little compare to yours. But your overreaction (Not the first time) proven my point AGAIN.
People are sensitive about faith matters. Even self proclaims "Atheists" as well.
I enjoyed reading your post and found myself in AGREEMENT with YOU in most parts.
The problem is most people of the earth we share with don't think like us. When I hear about misinformation about my faith or my respected prophets (PBUT), I try to offer correct information (That is what I have been doing in this forum frequently) as you have suggested.
You said this trailer movie is a crap. Why people who are rioting on the street do not understand that.
One western analyst thought about this phenomenon and said, most of the people who are resorting to violence had dictators as their rulers. So over one or two generations they have seen EVERY parts of their lives controlled by those governments. So it is hard for them to imagine that, in the US government has very little control over media. Specifically the internet related media is new to them. While those of us who have some experience of media freedom (Even military dictators of Bangladesh were liberal about free speech most of the time), we can imagine it. So you have seen smaller protests in our country.
The fact is "Islamic world" has over 1.7 billion members. So even if a small number reacts (Which I feel as counter-productive and a perversion of Islamic teachings), it can grab headlines for weeks!!
Hope this is a little clearer to you. ;-)
It is also important to understand that, Muslims are very emotional about their God and messengers (PBUT). We love prophets (PBUT) and feel they were living examples for all of us. So we are protective of our "Gurus/teachers". You may want to consider it as a bad thing, regardless this "understanding" can help you (Or anyone) to deal with Muslims effectively.
we hardly hear about if there are alternative ways to fight back.
>>>>>>>>> Although mainstream media are attracted to shock value news but in reality most Muslims "Fight back" non-violently. They do what I have been doing here for a while. Which is to offer authentic information about Islam to people who are confused by our surroundings.
In either way, it is not enhancing the image of the Muslim community around the world. That's my analysis as a bystander.
>>>>>>>> 100% agreement with your observation. Too bad I have limited power to influence the mob.
Shalom!
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Sep 18, 2012 8:33 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
Date: Monday, September 17, 2012, 3:00 PM
Personally I simply ignore such garbage which does not have any historical links to the characters they claim to portray. During election year, a lot of ugly things happens. It is too early to speak with any certainty about the clip.
What I know about it is it simply supported every "Typical orientalist" stereotype. In popular lingo these are known as "Hit piece" which lacks substance. Albeit I don't think this spoof of the noble messenger of God (PBUH) will do any damage to Islam or the last prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
However I am very sadden to see innocent civilians die because of such lose enforcement of "Hate speech".
Thus, it would be wrong to accuse the US government of 'allowing' this video to be circulated.
I have a little idea about US constitution and how it has been applied in last few hundred years. I am ALSO aware of the FACT that, US sent over 50,000 INNOCENT Japanese-American citizens to internment camps to prevent loss of lives (Of white Americans for all practical purpose). I can give you a very long list of such actions to prevent loss of innocent lives by the constitution bound US government.
I am just shocked to see that, US would risk lives of so many for a home made Amateur movie, which is probably more fitting for Saturday Night live than mainstream movie goers.
Again in the US, if you scream fire (If there is no actual fire) in the middle of a movie theater, you can be arrested for that crime ( I am 100% sure of it). Similarly if someone makes a porn movie about Hindu goddesses and Sri Krisna, they should be arrested as well. Because without context most people will be mislead by such movie. Albeit Sri Krisna is believed to have hundreds of wives by Hindus. Just mentioning without context will give the wrong impression.
Therefore when we deal with such sensitive issues, we have to be more careful for all practical purpose. Here no one knows who made this movie. The actors claims they don't even know about this project. Does it sound or look like a "Normal" movie?
Just like US government increased security measures for "Public safety", they can monitor against abuse of "Free speech". The concept was meant to foster lively discussions, debates among people not hatred, libel, slander against innocent people.
Don't try to give me definition of "Free speech", I think we are mature enough to get past elementary discussion and go deeper.
Therefore, I am not very worried about lives of people who are protesting the movie. Most of them would love to die to show their love for the noble prophet (PBUH) but I am concerned about people who are in the middle of this mess but did not expect such mayhem. I am concerned about thousands of travelers who have to face extra level of scrutiny for this "Crap". The security department workers who have to work extra hours. At the end of the day, it will cost a lot more money to US tax payers for such horrible oversight.
Still I am certain US constitution was not meant to "protect" slander/libel against great people. Also this kind of blunder only helps so called "Communal" wings of our communities. They act as a recruiting agent for such fringe groups.
Even the maker of the movie (Who is believed to be a criminal and fraud) is not defending the movie, why should US government?
Shalom!
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Sep 17, 2012 6:39 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
My wife told me yesterday – she heard that - the infamous film was funded by middle-eastern money to spark the violence against the USA.
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Wednesday, September 19, 2012
Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
When you start breaking things every time you are angry, resentment over your action will overshadow the reason for your anger. All these violence around the world is just increasing the load of resentment towards Muslim community.
-----Original Message-----
"written by an apostate." An apostate doesn't invent anything. He uses authentic religious sources to construct a biography. Karen Armstrong, a former nun, presently agnostic though sympathetic to Islam and it's prophet, has authored a well researched biography of the Prophet not quite with an altogether glorious portrait of a role model. Devout followers would react almost to anything. In the middle age, Christians would burn anybody alive they found heretic. Radical Muslims are going through that phase. However, I am hopeful they would be able to overcome such stage. A society that created Mutazillas during the glorious Abbasid reign could not be lost forever in their own version of dark age.
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:37 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
QR Said: "It is also important to understand that, Muslims are very emotional about their God and messengers (PBUT). We love prophets (PBUT) and feel they were living examples for all of us. So we are protective of our "Gurus/teachers". You may want to consider it as a bad thing, regardless this "understanding" can help you (Or anyone) to deal with Muslims effectively."
Yes, it's very true that Muslims are emotional with God and Prophet. Nothing wrong there! We are only discussing how to react when someone hurts that emotion. As you know, emotional hurt can be dealt with many ways. You can demonstrate against such violation without breaking things. When you start breaking things every time you are angry, resentment over your action will overshadow the reason for your anger. All these violence around the world is just increasing the load of resentment towards Muslim community.
The perception is that - when you hurt feelings of Muslims, violent reaction will ensue. It has been almost predictable. It seems to me that many peaceful Muslims have taken this mantra for granted also. Many think that violent reaction will act as a deterrent to those who will dare to violate Muslim religious feelings in the future. But, is it true? Now, many more avenues are open to hurt feelings of religious people of all faiths. Nobody can stop them. Last night I saw the movie clip. It was not a shock and awe to me, as I have read the life-story of the Prophet in the e-book format before, written by an apostate.
Anyway, this violence will end soon, but the cost of it will be felt by everyone, including those who took part in those destruction. If we advocate non-violent ways to express anger, that will be much more effective in dealing with this issue, because - it will take away the resentment associated with the violence. To get there, we will need help from the religious leaders. Violent response to a hurt feeling can be eliminated only if religious leaders come on board and become vocal against it. In fact, Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia did just that. We need to promote this type of message in every mosque in the world. That's the point I am trying to make here.
JR
When you said ShreeKrishna had hundreds of wives, I surely knew that you lack knowledge.
>>>>>>>>> primarily for lack of knowledge. Because during the lifetime of prophet Muhammad (PBUH) he faced many harassment, threats, attacks against him (Personal level) and he forgave all personal attacks. In fact he even took care of his enemies when they were in trouble (There is a reason why he is known as prophet of mercy to us!).
-----Original Message-----
When the King of Vijaynagar fell, he had twenty thousand girls in his harem. Given one a day, he would need about fifty five years to deflower them. Obviously, there could not be a better congregation of virgins than such harems. About our beloved 'Kesto Thakur' or 'Sri Krishna' he might be just another celestial figure, e.g., a planet considered a supreme God. His minor consorts being the stars, and major ones are indeed Sun and Moon, Radhika and Chandrabali. His terrestrial existence has no historical evidence whatsoever.
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:06 AM, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
Forget about the debate about what's a free-speech or hate-speech or not. Just think about the following points. When people who do not believe in a particular religion suddenly humiliate or defame religious figures of that religion - what credibility do they have? None, what so ever! It's so predictable. Trust me – people criticize other religions privately all the time; only some people sometimes go public with it. Can't we just brush it off expecting that some crazy people will do it or can we assume that they lack knowledge and perspectives and they will disseminate wrong message? When you said ShreeKrishna had hundreds of wives, I surely knew that you lack knowledge.
Let me correct you from my knowledge of the epical story of ShreeKrishna. ShreeKrishna had 1600 gopies, which may be translated into 1600 girl friends. Again, it needs further perspective to understand the nature of the relationship between Krishna and gopies. Krishna left Gokul, where he had 1600 gopies, for Mathura when he was about 11 years old. Therefore, these gopies had opportunity to mingle with him only from 0 - 11 years of age. Now, you can assert whatever you want to the relationship of Krishna and 1600 gopies. When you said – Krishna had hundreds of wives, it did not surprise or bother me at all; I am sure - it will not bother other Hindus also. I knew you were not aware of the real story behind it.
You said this trailer movie is a crap. Why people who are rioting on the street do not understand that. If they did - they would not give such an attention or publicity to this crap movie. I was not interested in this movie at all in the beginning, but, now with this inordinate importance on the movie, my curiosity has increased thousand-fold. So far, all I know is - it's about Prophet Muhammad. I am guessing - one of the two can happen – the story is either untrue or true. If it is true – it should not bother anybody, because most people probably know it already. If it is untrue, let's tell the world what's the truth, and expose those people who tell such lies. Let's make another movie to tell the truth. In either ways, violence is not needed. However, there is a way to justify violence, and that is - if the story is true, and people want to block its propagation through violence. But, that is almost impossible to do in this day and age, when all you need to make a movie is - a video-camera and a computer or cell-phone to disseminate it throughout the world.
I always hear don't hurt the feelings of the Muslims if you want to stop the violence, but we hardly hear about if there are alternative ways to fight back. I believe some people are fueling the flames to use this issue for something else. In either way, it is not enhancing the image of the Muslim community around the world. That's my analysis as a bystander.
--- On Mon, 9/17/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
Gentlemen,
>>>>>>>>>> I think it is fair to say we knew that this kind of junk generally gets a reaction from the crowd. I am not worried about my "Honor" or even honor of my religion. Because crap will wash away in few days but this time this little stunt caused few lives!!
-----Original Message-----
I think QAR does not know the logical definition of "hate speech."
Most Americans, including Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and myself, who have strongly condemned the video, "Innocence of Muslims", have found it to be disgusting and distasteful. It is disgusting because it has insulted and mocked the prophet of Islam, which serves no other purpose but making the Muslims angry.
Making someone, or even millions of people, angry or upset does not fall in the category of "hate speech." A "hate speech" would ask people to commit one or more crimes such as killing, torturing, raping, etc. The video did not ask people to commit any such crime. That is why the maker of the video could not be prosecuted under US laws just for making and showing the video. However, the allegations of dubbing to change the words without the approval of the actors, if true, would certainly allow the actors to sue the maker of the video. Of course, any other unrelated crime, such as the bank fraud case that has been in the media, could also land the suspected maker of the video into legal hot waters.
While Hillary Clinton expressed her condemnation of the video, she also said, "We do not stop individual citizens from expressing their views no matter how distasteful they may be." In fact, the US constitution does not give the government the authority to stop individual citizens from expressing their views, no matter how distasteful they may be. Thus, it would be wrong to accuse the US government of 'allowing' this video to be circulated.
Sukhamaya Bain
================================================= From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
As much as I abhor the u-tube "Filth" some people call a film. I do not think US government would murder it's own diplomat. Like all societies US has it's share of flaws but it also has some great qualities as a country. A per-world war ll insignificant country had some greatness in it to become what it is today. One of my uncles fought for the British Royal Air force during second world war and he told me stories of that war when I was a kid. He said even back then Americans were generous, friendly and loved humor lot more then the "British".
>>>>>>>> So far bunch of "Middle eastern" fanatic Jews and Christians are suspect behind this very "Unique" project. It is very sad that, a hate filled film(With tons of distorted information) was "Allowed" to circulate and cause so much harm all over the world. Even in the US, free speech is protected but "HATE SPEECH" is against the law. In this digital world even America has to learn to act quickly, because I felt many "Copy cats" are working in their basements with similar projects. I also hope Muslims need to realize these are NOT work of any government. Just some very suspicious groups who work to put "hate" in as many hearts it can. Therefore, it has unmistakeably ME connection but a Jewish/Christian one. (Based on what we know until now). Shalom!
-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Sep 14, 2012 12:03 pm Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Obama vows justice for killed US envoy
Let me explain my problem with most of your comments, they are usually 1 – 2 liners. So, usually, we have to guess what you mean. I am glad that you clarified your political bent. I believe, most people in this forum support democratic platform. That's fine with me. Political talks in this forum is meaningless. I can give hundred reasons why I support other party, but - nobody will change their mind. Then what's the point. So, let's stay away from politics.
The other issue you raised is interesting. You said you are staying away from US pressure-cooker society. I am not sure what that means. As far as I know, a substantial part of your life has been spent in the USA; you received higher education here, and worked here until retirement. Now, you feel US society is a pressure-cooker, and you live outside. It will be interesting if you care to explain a bit more on this, because I also think this society is moving away from the traditional values that made this country great. I do not like what I see recently.
You said that USA arranged and/or sat back while Japan attacked the Pearl Harbor, so that they can bomb Japan into Stone Age. It is apparent from your statements that – you are a contrarian, and believe in the conspiracy theories. You probably also believe 9/11 was planned by George Bush administration so they can attack Afghanistan and Iraq. My wife told me yesterday – she heard that - the infamous film was funded by middle-eastern money to spark the violence against the USA. All these are a bit nutty to me, to put it mildly. Then again, what do I know about the truth? After all, human-beings are the most dangerous animals on the planet.
Jiten Roy
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