If someone with bad intention takes incidents out of context, that is the problem with those individuals NOT with Islam or the last messenger of ALLAH (PBUH).
>>>>>>>>> At personal level, we cannot pick up the law in our own hands. We have an elected government and I expect them to punish the criminals. My stance against criminals are always the same and ideas in support of innocent victims are Always the same. No matter which faith groups they came from.
Shortly we'll be witnessing celebration of Durga puja and Eid within this month. The government should take all measures necessary to ensure people can celebrate their respective festivals in safety.
ALSO do remember "East Bengal" saw a lots of vandalism by Hindus over Muslims. If it was so good, people had no reason to support creation of Pakistan (During the 40's). As I have been saying, greed and arrogance have no religion. We have such people in ALL religions. Albeit most religion teaches us otherwise.
Mr. Rahman's comparison between Ramu and Assam and Myanmar is devoid of rationale, if not insincere. In Assam, the cause was not an insult on any Hindu prophet (avatar) or God. In Myanmar, the cause was not an insult on Buddha. I hope he can now see the problem with the Muslim psyche.
>>>>>>>> "Devoid of rationale"?? Really? In Assam and Myanmar Muslims have been living there for many centuries. But in both places religious fanatics are marking Muslims as "Bangladeshis" and going after their properties and lives. You don't see a parallel here???
When people want to attack others (As we have seen in Ramu), they don't have any "Religious causes" rather they abuse the religion by producing "Lame excuses" for criminal acts. What happened in Ramu is AGAINST teachings of Islam. You can read the life story of prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and you will see that.
You are right in one part of your statement. In Assam and Myammer, Muslims did not insult anyone. Simply "Being Muslim" was criminal enough.
While the symptom can be treated with improved law and order in Bangladesh, to cure the disease, Muslims would need the sense that an insult on Allah or His book, the Koran, or His prophet, Mohammad, should be punished only by Allah Himself, not by humans.
>>>>>>>>> I feel that would be the rule in a perfect world. Now ask yourself a simple question. If I visit Kolkata next week during "Durga puja" and insult "Durga" in many creative ways, what do you expect from locals?
I feel most people would say nothing BUT at least 10% would react violently. I can say the same about any religions. I don't know where you live. If it is in the USA, please feel free to go to mobile, Alabama and insult "Jesus" among Christians. I don't think those folks would leave you in one piece.
HOWEVER theoretically I fully agree with you. As per Islam, we should leave judging to our Maker. Unless it is against laws of the land, we should try to be more tolerant. No disagreement there.
It is foolish to talk about Mohammad forgiving people who insulted him, while talking about the atrocities on the Buddhist community because of an alleged insult on the Koran. Forgiveness is great, and Mohammad was great when he forgave. But that would be comparable if someone insulted Mr. Rahman, and he forgave the insulter.
>>>>>>>>> NOPE. I was explaining the teachings of my faith. Which says, forgiveness is the best option. However sometime for the sake of the community, we have to punish criminals. The details of the "Atrocities" are coming out. So far it seems like, it was a planned attack with people from ALL political parties and outsiders. It is one thing if it was an outraged angry mob but it looks like a planned attack. Both political parties came up with possible causes which (Surprised?) indicated their respective political opponents. Most Muslims in Bangladesh are against it and they have been stating it in a very BOLD ways in print media, street protests, radio, social network and TV. Even many religious leaders made very strong statements AGAINST such attack on places of worship and innocent civilians.
Maybe you are not in Bangladesh. Please ask around and you will know.
As I condemned the insults on Mohammad in the video, Innocence of Muslims, and in the magazine, Charlie Hebdo, I also condemn the insult on the Koran in the Facebook page of Uttam Barua. However, all the condemnations should have been in words, spoken or written, against the insulters only. Of course, the barbaric atrocities in Ramu and elsewhere in Bangladesh on the Buddhist and Hindu communities have overshadowed the condemnation part on the Koran-insulter, who in reality might not even be Mr. Barua.
>>>>>>>>>> As civilians, we the people have been VERY vocal against such criminal activities. The evidences suggests, it was more of an excuse to go after political opponents. Now it is up to our elected administration to do a serious investigation and via a transparent trial punish the criminals behind it.
Once we see some punishments, it will deter future aspiring criminals. Sadly criminals are stronger than innocent civilians (OF all faith groups) in Bangladesh. Unless this equation is challenged, the problem will remain with us and blaming religion will be the wrong direction.
Shalom!
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 14, 2012 8:17 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Thoughts on the Atrocities on the Buddhists of Ramu
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Thoughts on the Atrocities on the Buddhists of Ramu
==========================================================
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Thoughts on the Atrocities on the Buddhists of Ramu
Time and again we discussed this and I have pointed out it is lack of law and order and our disastrous "Political culture" that may cause such carnage. Few weeks before we have seen very similar attacks on Muslims in Assam and Myanmar. Did you question Hindu and Buddhist Psyche?? I don't recall any such mail. I only remember silence and blaming the victims by some other members.
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 7, 2012 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Morsi Orders Release of Christian Boys Held for Desecrating Holy Quran in Egypt - Ikhwanweb
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Sunday, October 14, 2012
Re: [mukto-mona] Thoughts on the Atrocities on the Buddhists of Ramu
"It is foolish to talk about Mohammad forgiving people who insulted him"- Contrary to the Islamist claim, the Prophet of Islam did not generally forgive the persons who insulted him according to his biographers.
>>>>>>>> This has been discussed and debated quite a few times. I am not sure why simply repeat wrong information. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) DID forgive ALL "PERSONAL" enemies. All of them!! However when someone attempted at attack the new founded Islamic state (In Medina), he judged it according to the crime. Even the harshest sentences were very "Moderate" compare the Arab customs of that era.
Talking about 'we are mourning', we have seen this kind of 'mourning' many times in East Bengal. It did not stop the repetition of the atrocities.
-----Original Message-----
Let me address some of the points made by Mr. Rahman and Mr. Chakrabarty.
First on Mr. Chakrabarty's points:
True, religious identity is just one of the many identities one has. The problem is, for some people their religious identity overshadows most other identities.
It is also true that in many cases religious identity does not dominate. Do you really think that most Bangladeshi Muslims fall into that category, Mr. Chakrabarty? If not, then you might see the Muslim psyche to be a problem for Bangladesh. Let us be honest here. It may be politically correct to not blame the overall psyche of a people. But tell me, would you expect in countries like the USA, the UK, Japan, China, and India, for example, even an intention of causing havoc on the Muslim community due to a fact of insult by one individual Muslim on the God or gods or prophet of Christianity, Buddhism or Hinduism? Make a distinction between intention and execution. A better law and order situation can stop an execution, but not an intention. To not have such intentions people overall need to be better educated.
Now, on Mr. Rahman's points:
Talking about 'we are mourning', we have seen this kind of 'mourning' many times in East Bengal. It did not stop the repetition of the atrocities.
Mr. Rahman's comparison between Ramu and Assam and Myanmar is devoid of rationale, if not insincere. In Assam, the cause was not an insult on any Hindu prophet (avatar) or God. In Myanmar, the cause was not an insult on Buddha. I hope he can now see the problem with the Muslim psyche.
While the symptom can be treated with improved law and order in Bangladesh, to cure the disease, Muslims would need the sense that an insult on Allah or His book, the Koran, or His prophet, Mohammad, should be punished only by Allah Himself, not by humans.
It is foolish to talk about Mohammad forgiving people who insulted him, while talking about the atrocities on the Buddhist community because of an alleged insult on the Koran. Forgiveness is great, and Mohammad was great when he forgave. But that would be comparable if someone insulted Mr. Rahman, and he forgave the insulter.
As I condemned the insults on Mohammad in the video, Innocence of Muslims, and in the magazine, Charlie Hebdo, I also condemn the insult on the Koran in the Facebook page of Uttam Barua. However, all the condemnations should have been in words, spoken or written, against the insulters only. Of course, the barbaric atrocities in Ramu and elsewhere in Bangladesh on the Buddhist and Hindu communities have overshadowed the condemnation part on the Koran-insulter, who in reality might not even be Mr. Barua.
Sukhamaya Bain
===========================================
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Religious identity is just one of the many identities one has. Even the religious identity is not unique for all members of a particular religious community. It may not always be true that the religious identity will dominate. In many cases it does not. Moreover all the members belonging to a particular religious community do not react to the external conditions in the same way. Love for one's own religion is nothing wrong as long as this love tends to harm others irrespective of their religious or other identities. The bottom line is that use of the terms like "Muslim psyche" or "Hindu psyche" may be misleading as the terms are too general.
.......................................
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>Which shows that, you are looking for answer at the wrong place. It is a serious lack of accountability in part of police, RAB etc. Also from current administration. It is their DUTY to protect ALL citizens of Bangladesh. We the people did not elect them to simply put the blame on political opponents and pass the responsibility. There is NOTHING wrong, special or extra ordinary about "Muslim psyche". They are like rest of global population. Most people are decent and fair minded. However like every other communities Muslims have our share of bad actors. This kind of mindset will only spread communality among people of Bangladesh. All religious communities needs a little education in the age of internet. We have to adjust with new reality where common people have power to "Insult" others and we should use the same media to educate others about our faith, philosophy etc to reduce misunderstanding among all peace loving people. I have read about life of holy prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and I am convinced that if he was around, he would have simply forgiven any such "Personal" insults. This is what Muslims should remember and take it as an opportunity to stand by victims and foster long term relationships with them. I hope and pray we don't see such assaults in Bangladesh in future. Shalom!
.,,,,While we are mourning the loss we witnessed few days ago in Bangladesh, it would be wrong to stay obsessed with " Muslim psyche". If you have any concerns for minority in Bangladesh.
================================================================
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:
As some of you might know, I have very little time to write on socio-political issues, or to visit online forums and social websites. Besides, I am actually getting tired of talking about the Muslim psyche. But let me comment on Mr. Chakrabarty's point below.
If a Koran-insulting Facebook posting by an individual can be called a legitimate reason for destroying 50 houses and 12 temples, including one that was 250 years old, belonging to his community, most of which probably would not have approved such an insult, then a blasphemy law to prevent such insults on the Koran would be legitimate.
If the overall Muslim psyche found the atrocities on the Buddhist community to be too wrong, the fanatics (reactionaries) in that religious clan would not be talking, let alone proposing a blasphemy law. If the overall Muslim psyche found the atrocities on the Buddhist community to be too wrong, we would have seen some people abandoning their Muslim identity in an appropriate sense of shame and protest.
Unfortunately, Badruddin Umar's thought have a basis, looking at the reality on the ground. However, the point that educated people need to make is that the Muslim psyche needs some serious reeducation, so that the severe disease of senselessness and incivility that the Muslims (on an overall average) are suffering from could be cured.
Sukhamaya Bain
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BTW: The Egyptian President releasing two 9 and 10 years old boys is nothing to be praised, if we were to maintain a reasonable standard below which everything is ordinary and no big deal. They should not have been in the jail to begin with. In a civilized society, someone probably would have told the boys parents that they have done a mischief of insulting a religious book, and the parents would have told them not to do it again, or at the most spanked them mildly; and that would have been the end of the story.
=====================================================
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
.......I meant that the release of the child was a good news. Then I said that probably very shortly Egypt will have strict blasphemy law with pressure from fanatic Islamists. Badruddin Umar thinks that Ramu violence may give the reactionaries to come up with the proposal for blasphemy law.
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