It clearly says - smite the head off the unbelievers; it does not say smite the head off the attackers.
I welcome you to READ the background of the Sura (Chapter) from any well known Muslim scholar. There has been so much distortion of facts about Islam, I cannot blame you for having an opinion like it. I can give you links to non-Muslim scholars from well known Universities and they will tell you the SAME examples.
As long you don't listen to talk-show hosts like Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Springer type personality, you can talk to any teacher of religion from well known Univerisities as well.
I just re-read my own post below. I have even quoted a verse around it to establish my point (It was talking about people who attacked Muslims of Medina). Here you are quoting verse 8:12 and if you read verse 8:15, it would be clear who it is talking about. It says...
[ Source: Al Qur'an 8:15]
Hope this will be some help to enhance your understanding.
Shalom!
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 27, 2013 11:15 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fwd: Harvard University places at its entrance verse from Quran as best example of justice
--- On Sun, 1/27/13, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fwd: Harvard University places at its entrance verse from Quran as best example of justice
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, January 27, 2013, 11:12 AM
These verses were describing a WAR scenario (After Muslims tolerated abuse for thirteen years and left for Medina looking for peace, they were attacked by the Meccan leaders and the verses are addressing Muslims at that point).
It is UNIVERSALLY understood that, EVERYONE has a right to defend himself/herself. If you read the VERY next verses you see that, it has been CLEARLY said if someone (Idol worshipers) seek peace, Muslims are asked to deal with them peacefully.
If I take "Mahabrarata" out of context and tell others that, Hindus are people who LOVE to kill even family members, it would be a distorted meaning of the whole story.
This sad attempt is similar to that. As I said, we have NOTHING to hide. Everyone is welcome to read the whole chapter and any fair minded person will see, Islam asked it's followers to seek peace. Like all civilized and functioning nations, we were given the right to defend ourselves if we are attacked.
Simple as that.
Hope this will help you with a better understanding of the point made in the holy Qur'an.
Shalom/peace!
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 26, 2013 8:08 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fwd: Harvard University places at its entrance verse from Quran as best example of justice
QR: "They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper. 4:90"
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fwd: Harvard University places at its entrance verse from Quran as best example of justice
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, January 25, 2013, 10:41 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here few verses were taken out of context (Via cut and paste) and tried to "IMPOSE" an unintended meaning on it by an article (Which was compiled by Mukto-mona members (A Complete guide to Allah) and not being again copied and posted (With the same distortion).
Let me explain here.
Let us take the very first example given (As if it was about someone who left Islam).
Below, a few verses from the Qur'an, which clearly call for the murder of the deserters of Islam.
HOWEVER this verse was actually revealed when Muslims of Medina were attacked by Meccans (around 313 Muslims against 1000 well armed Meccans). Some were afraid and several verses were revealed to reassure Muslims about Allah (SWT)'s mercy on His followers. Because such an odd situation would make anyone nerves.
CLICK here to READ the whole Chapter and background if you wish.
Most importantly, verses 8:12 has NOTHING to do with someone who lslam. We see that in the following verse (Addressed to scared Muslims about their fate against large number of Enemy)
[ Source: Al Qur'an 8:15]
I welcome questions that concerns YOU. At least spend some time verifying what has been served infront of you. I have given two sources anyone can verify.
In this context, I like to share an answer to pretty popular questions from seekers of knowledge (about violence and Islam). Feel free to read the article to get an better understanding.
Does Quran Encourage Violence?
>>>>>>>>>>> This one was about hypocrites and AGAIN another meaning was "INSERTED" i.e., apostates)
I'll simply share verses around it and it will help you understand the level of distortion.....
=====================================================================
Just read verses around quotes shared by member Roy and it will be EASY to see how meaning was distorted by some "Angry atheists".
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 24, 2013 6:47 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fwd: Harvard University places at its entrance verse from Quran as best example of justice
JR:
- how to deal with people who disagree with your religious views; some of those prescriptions are very harsh to those who do not conform to the principles of Quran.
QR:
--- On Wed, 1/23/13, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 23, 2013 6:22 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Fwd: Harvard University places at its entrance verse from Quran as best example of justice
"Those who have irrational hate about Islam, they would "Invent" issues if necessary. The beautiful verse from the Qur'an is an example of "Universality" of the message Qur'an delivered to us."
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Fwd: Harvard University places at its entrance verse from Quran as best example of justice
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2013, 8:50 AM
Pam Geller came "Unglued" with such a beautiful passage, I wanted to ask her if English was her first or second language!!
Folks, read the passage for yourself and ask yourself where it says anything against Jews, Christians or Hindus? Rather it has been a command to Muslims to establish "Justice" even if requires speaking up against our own families.
Which ended with a warning (For Muslims) NOT to distort justice and staying firm to just actions.
Pamela Geller says, "But the dhimmi lemmings at the Harvard Law School don't know that, or don't care. And so they perpetrate this misleading whitewash of Islamic "justice".
When we discuss "Islamic justice", we have to go by what the books says about it. Any attempt to distortion by Muslims would be punished by our Maker.
Shalom!
From: Isha Khan <bdmailer@gmail.com>
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
Sent: Tue, Jan 22, 2013 5:38 pm
Subject: Harvard University places at its entrance verse from Quran as best example of justice
At the main entrance to Harvard Law School, a text from a verse in the Koran Chapter "The Women" was placed, presenting it as one of the greatest examples of justice in history. This step of the most authoritative US University is met by strong dissatisfaction of Islamophobes.
A Harvard student, a native of Saudi Arabia, Abdullah Jumma, photographed the text at the entrance and posted it on his Twitter page. This was reported by a Saudi paper Ajel in Arabic.
The text of the verse reads:
(The Holy Quran, Chapter 4. "The Women", verse 135).
Upon learning that the verse from the Koran was posted at Harvard as an example of a higher justice, American Islamophobes expressed their outrage and attacked the Koran and Sharia.
On Atlas Shrugs, a website of the initiator of numerous anti-Muslim campaigns in America, Pamela Geller, "evidence" was posted against Islam, consisting of Koranic texts taken out of context and their interpretation by Islamic scholars. The Islamophobe announced that the Sharia is contrary to "human values".
"The Constitution is the great shining moment of Western civilization, based on individual rights, the premise of which is the opposite of Islamic law", claims Geller.She calls the Sharia "a comprehensive legal system governing every aspect of human life, and asserts authority over non-Muslims".
Claiming that "discrimination against non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians, is part and parcel of the Koran's concept of justice", Pamela Geller says, "But the dhimmi lemmings at the Harvard Law School don't know that, or don't care. And so they perpetrate this misleading whitewash of Islamic "justice". Pamela Geller is a self-proclaimed human rights activist and director of the center "Stop Islamization of America".
The Harvard University was founded in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in 1636, and is the oldest and most prestigious university in the United States.
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2013/01/16/17265.shtml
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Sunday, January 27, 2013
Re: [mukto-mona] Fwd: Harvard University places at its entrance verse from Quran as best example of justice
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it is a translation. ALSO they attackers were happen to be unbelievers as well.
O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight].
-----Original Message-----
"Strike terror in the hearts of the unbelievers; smite the unbelievers at their necks and cut off their fingers...8:12
Your interpretation is not a true representation of the verse above.
It clearly says - smite the head off the unbelievers; it does not say smite the head off the attackers. If this were the case, you would not hear any argument against the verse from me.
Jiten Roy
Member Roy,
-----Original Message-----
From the quote above, which you have provided, I see much more harsh punishment for a disbeliever than what the verse in the Harvard Campus says. Harvard Campus verse is much more benign. Did Allah change His mind in the above verse? This was the point in my previous comments.
Thanks you.
Jiten Roy
--- On Fri, 1/25/13, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
Below, a few verses from the Qur'an, which clearly call for the murder of the deserters of Islam.
Strike terror in the hearts of the unbelievers; smite the unbelievers at their necks and cut off their fingers...8:12
Seize and slay the renegades (i.e., apostates) wherever you find them (death for the apostates as per Baydawi; ref. Leaving Islam, p. 17, as per the translator of Noble Qur'an kill those who reject Islam after accepting it)...4:89
If the enemies violate their oaths (i.e., if they apostatize or do not accept Islam) and taunt the faith then fight them (i.e., death for the apostates as per Maudoodi; ref. Leaving Islam, p. 18)...9:12
O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight].
Similar "LESS THAN HONEST" methods were used (More life abused and followed by cut and paste army) in following verses member Roy posted here. I don't think he even read it carefully and ever tried to verify this information.
Seize and slay the renegades (i.e., apostates) wherever you find them (death for the apostates as per Baydawi; ref. Leaving Islam, p. 17, as per the translator of Noble Qur'an kill those who reject Islam after accepting it)...4:89
Sahih International
What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance].
Sahih International
They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.
Sahih International
Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.>>>>>>>>> I am always open to learn new things. Kindly give me some specific examples and I'll explore it with you. :-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Rahman,
Please verify some of these verses below:
Below, a few verses from the Qur'an, which clearly call for the murder of the deserters of Islam.
Strike terror in the hearts of the unbelievers; smite the unbelievers at their necks and cut off their fingers...8:12
Seize and slay the renegades (i.e., apostates) wherever you find them (death for the apostates as per Baydawi; ref. Leaving Islam, p. 17, as per the translator of Noble Qur'an kill those who reject Islam after accepting it)...4:89
If the enemies violate their oaths (i.e., if they apostatize or do not accept Islam) and taunt the faith then fight them (i.e., death for the apostates as per Maudoodi; ref. Leaving Islam, p. 18)...9:12
Covenant with Allah must be honoured; deserters (apostates) cannot escape death or being killed (death for the apostates)...33:15-16
Allah curses the hypocrites, diseased hearts; they are not able to stay as Muhammad's neighbour; wherever they are found they will be seized and slain mercilessly (i.e., kill the apostates and the hypocrites) ...33:60-61
There is a terrible penalty for those who dispute about Allah after accepting Islam (apostates)...42:16
And here are a few ahadith on how apostasy against Islam was treated during Muhammad's time.
Muhammad ordered to kill the apostates; if somebody (Muslim) discards his religion, kill him')...(Sahih Bukhari, 4.52.260 Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
______________________________
My goal is not to target Quran particularly; my understanding is that - all religious scriptures (Quran, Bible, Torah, Gita, etc.) are full of such violent instructions to punish anyone who does not conform to edicts of those scriptures. If you differ, let me know why.
Jiten Roy
-----Original Message-----
Why do I hear the same accusation from you whenever someone criticizes anything about Islam? You know that - everybody do not follow Islam or care about Islam. That does not mean they necessarily hate Islam.
Anyway, let's come to the point about the display of this verse.
We have to remember - first, there is nothing wrong with the quote, per se. Second, it did not just appear there by the grace of God; somebody had to pay heftily to put up this quote on the Harvard Campus.
Why is there controversy over such an innocuous quote? Now, what are 'justice' and 'injustice,' and who determines them – government/Quran/Gita/Bible/Torah? So you see, one person's justice could be other person's injustice. Since we cannot decide on them, we are bound to have disagreement, even among family members. Now what we do with the disagreement? Actually, this verse says what to do when you have disagreement - you stick to whatever you believe in, and leave others alone; Allah will deal with them. I like everything up to here. But, things get complicated after that.
I wish there were no other verses on this subject in the Quran, but – it is not so, unfortunately. Quran has many other verses (prescriptions) also as to - how to deal with people who disagree with your religious views; some of those prescriptions are very harsh to those who do not conform to the principles of Quran. If someone choose to follow one of those harsher prescriptions to deal with non-conformers, for whatever reason, could you blame him/her?
Therefore, if you just run with this one verse, you will have misguided notion about the reality. Also, we still have blasphemy law to shun dissenting voices, and many other discriminatory practices to deal with non-believers.
Therefore, even though this verse says leave those non-believers alone, it may not be effective among believers, who know other verses also. In other words, it will just convey misinformation to non-believers. It's like one of those Middle Eastern broadcasts - sending one message to English-speaking audiences and a different message to non-English-speaking audiences.
I believe - complain is not about this particular verse at all, complain is about the impression it creates. They are afraid – it will convey misinformation. Can you blame them as Islam-haters?
Thanks.
Jiten Roy
--- On Tue, 1/22/13, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
Those who have irrational hate about Islam, they would "Invent" issues if necessary. The beautiful verse from the Qur'an is an example of "Universality" of the message Qur'an delivered to us.
>>>>>>>> Could not believe my own eyes that, such a beautiful verse can arouse such an ugly response from hate-mongers.
-----Original Message-----
Harvard University places at its entrance verse from Quran as best example of justice
"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort justice or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do."
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