Banner Advertiser

Saturday, February 2, 2013

Re: [mukto-mona] Re: বীরাঙ্গনা ৭১ হাজার হাজার নারী গর্ভবতী হয়ে পড়ে



You are right, Deeldar, number of rape victims are not important to the fair-minded people; it is only important to the distractors. They will look for anything for distraction, and this number-game is one such attempt. The fact is thousands of women were raped, and killed during the liberation war. Isn't that enough? We have seen such attempt by Sarmila Bose, who made her fame by doing so. Their goals are creating doubts in peoples' minds, especially those who have no direct experience of the Liberation War. I am sorry to say – they have been successful, partly because of the disdain and infighting among the pro-liberation minds. Some of them still want to forget and forgive offenders out of their religious bias. Even many of those people are Awami-Leaguers. Based on that sentiment, Awami-League have hesitated during their previous tenures prior to 2001 to revitalize the Bengali-nationalism and secularism, and got burned after 2001 election defeat. They wanted to forgive their enemies  also, but – their enemies don't want to forgive them. That's the message all Awami-Leaguers need to keep in mind. If they loose again, they will get punished again. The problem is – Awami-League has bunch of opportunistic politicians, but - no thinkers to guide them.

 

Awami-league can only survive on the foundation of secularism; some of them probably know it, but do not know how to achieve that goal. They need to launch a rigorous attempt to educate their cadres, first, to motivate them for the campaign of secularism all over Bangladesh. After that, they need to launch a promotional campaign into the masses. Most Bangladeshis are secular minded, which Awami-league needs to understand. They can't tap that sentiment when they are in their confused state of mind. 

 

They need to learn some lessons from the BNP as well. The first thing Zia (BNP) and Ershad did right after their very first power-grabs, was to undo signs of secularism from the society (school, colleges, government offices, etc.). But, after that, when Awami-leagues got their first chance to come to power, they did nothing to change that environment, which cost them dearly after 2001 defeat. This time around they have done a better campaign for secularism, but not to the point needed to construct a firm base. As a result, their foundation is still shaky. 


Jiten Roy



--- On Sat, 2/2/13, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@gmail.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Re: বীরাঙ্গনা ৭১ হাজার হাজার নারী গর্ভবতী হয়ে পড়ে
To: "Syed Haque" <syedhaque@hotmail.com>
Cc: "bangladesh-progressives googlegroups" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>, "Shahadat Hussaini" <shahadathussaini@hotmail.com>, "Americanbangladeshi" <americanbangladeshi@googlegroups.com>, mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com, "Bangladeshi American Googlegroup" <bangladeshiamericans@googlegroups.com>
Date: Saturday, February 2, 2013, 11:15 AM

 

I am not sure why your hope me being Bisha or Saha is really important for this discussion? Why that should be an issue? I could careless whether a Syed is a Shahdhat or a tree frog. Stay on the topic, bro!

"I would be very much delighted if someone gives me some reliable source where exactly the total figure of rape victims came from unless manufactured by a pathological liar. I already showed my genuine discontentment against rape regardless of the number."

Do we know the exact number of Holocaust victims? We don't and some people do not even believe Holocaust ever occurred. If that number can be six millions, why three millions would be an absurd number? I am sure the number was not taken from a hat and Mujib started his venomous propaganda against Pakistanis? You have the right question a number as we have right question your denying that number. We know exactly the motive for this denial. Some animals who were involved in Bangladesh genocide, need to be rehabilitated? Isn't it?

I do not subscribe Sayyid Karim or deadbeat Serajur Rahman's version of the events. They are not more credible than Pakistan's own Hamidhur Rahman's report. A pathological looser country does not write the history! Finally, the lies have caught up with that country and minority Shias and others have become the latest victims of another slow ongoing genocide. To you people, who are in denial, the number will be always minimum because you owe that country some favor?

You cite Sisson and Rose as a ref but they do not really dig into any particular number because that was not the main theme of their book. Only surviving victims and independent researchers can provide us the true numbers. While Pak soldiers and their Bihari/Bangalee razakars had nine months to commit the genocide on the Bengalees, Bengalee retaliation went only for a week or so. That tells us Bihari deaths were negligible compared to our Benagalee deaths. While some Biharis lost their lives, many razakars just changed their attire and became totally rehabilitated within BNP and Jamat's umbrellas. Razakar deaths could not be more than handful because main culprits still able color their beards with red dye. It is of course their interest not to talk about the genocide and the numbers. Question everything and downplay everything have been their grand strategy.  Now, the minor non-Bengalee, Bihari killing has become their cause celebre? Bravo!
-SD      



2013/2/2 Syed Haque <syedhaque@hotmail.com>

First of all I hope Dildar is not the pseudo name of Bisha or Shaha and if it is not I owe you an apology. I do not intend to get into this absurd refutation either.

 

 

I would be very much delighted if someone gives me some reliable source where exactly the total figure of rape victims came from unless manufactured by a pathological liar. I already showed my genuine discontentment against rape regardless of the number. Moreover, when someone passes an incongruous message, the burden of guilt must be carried too.

 

Let's say for the sake of argument three million people got killed in 1971 by the Pak Hanadar Bahini. As a matter of fact one of them was my relative who was a CSP officer.

 

This figure received wide popularity when Sheikh Mujib returned to Bangladesh, stated to David Frost of BBC on an interview: "Three million people have been killed. I believe there is no parallel in the history of the world of such a colossal loss of life for the struggle of freedom."

 

Sayyid A Karim, Bangladesh's first foreign secretary, made a contention in his autobiography of Sheikh Mujib about the hypothetical figure stating: "As for the number of Bengalis killed in the course of the liberation war, the figure of 3 million mentioned by Mujib to David Frost in January 1972 was a gross overstatement." He added: "This figure was picked up by him from an article in Pravda, the organ of the communist party of the Soviet Union." There is, of course, another story that is often recounted which suggests that Sheikh Mujib made a mistake when he said 3 million died, and that he really meant 3 lakh (300,000) were killed. Basically he couldn't differentiate between 3 million and 3 lakhs.

I am not denying the fact that people were killed and raped and it happened in every war. Indian army is committing despicable crimes against the Kasmiris like rape, murder, torture you name it.

 

Sisson and Rose, in their 1990 book, 'War and Secession: Pakistan, India and the creation of Bangladesh' make the point that whatever the figure for the dead may be, "... it is still impossible to get anything like reliable estimates as to (1) how many of these were 'liberation fighters' killed in combat, (2) how many were Bihari Muslims and supporters of Pakistan killed by Bengali muslims, and (3) how many were killed by Pakistani, Indian or Mukti Bahini fire and bombing during the hostilities. One thing is clear - the atrocities did not just go one way, though Benglai Muslims and Hindus were certainly the main victims. "The distinction between liberation war fighters killed in combat and civilian deaths is an important one. It is also important to recongise that amongst the civilian deaths were Biharis civilians killed by 'Liberation fighters' or their supporters. In addition, of course, there are many deaths that are the result of war but are not the result of fighting and atrocities - but disease and malnutrition ….."

A crime is a crime no matter who commits.

 

Shall we move on and take care of the genuine crisis of the country or live on state of invariable shock of the past and become completely delusional?


 
> Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 19:01:56 -0800
> Subject: Re: বীরাঙ্গনা ৭১ হাজার হাজার নারী গর্ভবতী হয়ে পড়ে
> From: shahdeeldar@gmail.com
> To: syedhaque@hotmail.com
> CC: bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com; shahadathussaini@hotmail.com; americanbangladeshi@googlegroups.com
>
> What crime did Mr. Saha commit by forwarding Mr. Mamun's article? He
> needs to answer you how that stat was done? I was wondering whether
> you have done any research on that important issue and found a
> different number? Please put forward your number if you care! Or, you
> think these rape victims are not your kins and you do not care much
> about them? Do we know exactly how many Vietnamese got killed and
> raped during Vietnam war? If that number is credible to the world, why
> a Bangladeshi number would not be credible to you? Allergy against
> certain facts?
> -S
>
> On Feb 1, 9:28 am, Syed Haque <syedha...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Bisha,
> >
> > Thanks for sharing the article. Statistically speaking, how much confidence level and margin of error the data has cannot be guaranteed by anybody. It is the matter of she said he said. I am talking about the number of people got raped and killed. Bottom line is whatever happened was undoubtedly disgusting and filthy.
> >
> > My question is should we learn from the past or live on the past and forget about the present? What is happening in the independent BD?
> >
> > On a differnt perspective let's add something for the sake of discussion. If you consider we should follow India, then please allow me to ask you how many women get mollested and raped in India every day?
> >
> > Let's ponder:
> >
> > 1) How many army officers were butchered and how many of their wives were raped under the nose of the current government?
> > 2) Anything happended like that when our offciers were under home arrest in Pakistan?
> > 3) How many of our offciers were killed during the independence war in 1971?
> > 4) How many extrajudicial murder carried out in the independent BD?
> > 5) How many people got vanished by the special forces?
> > 6) Are we really independent from the hegemonic control of the regional bigger powers.
> > 7)We are still one of the most corrupt and densely populated country. Our inflation is out of control.
> >
> > The list goes on.
> >
> > What should we do now?
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > M
> >
> > Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:50:27 -0800
> > From: bishawdi...@yahoo.com
> > Subject: বীরাঙ্গনা ৭১ হাজার হাজার নারী গর্ভবতী হয়ে পড়ে
> > To: BangladeshiAmericans@googlegroups.com
> > CC: bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com
> >
> > বীরাঙ্গনা ৭১ হাজার হাজার নারী গর্ভবতী হয়ে পড়ে
> > মুনতাসীর মামুন
> >
> > (পূর্ব প্রকাশের পর)
> > ॥ দুই ॥
> > ১৯৭১ সালে বাংলাদেশের কতজন নারী ধর্ষিত হয়েছিলেন। স্বাধীনতার পরপর আমরা নানা হিসাব পেয়েছি। এখন হিসাবটা চার লাখে দাঁড়িয়েছে। ডা. ডেভিসও এই সংখ্যা দিয়েছেন। বাংলাদেশের ব্যাপক সংখ্যক ধর্ষিতার কথা বাইরের পৃথিবীতে জানাজানি হলে তখন বিভিন্ন সাহায্যসংস্থা এদের সহায়তায় এগিয়ে আসে। লন্ডনের ইন্টারন্যাশনাল এ্যাকশন রিসার্চ এ্যান্ড ট্রেনিং সেন্টার ডা. জিওফ্রে ডেভিসকে বাংলাদেশে পাঠায়। তিনি বাংলাদেশের আনাচে-কানাচে ধর্ষিতাদের নিয়ে কাজ করেছেন। তৎকালীন সরকারী কর্মচারীরা যে হিসাব দিয়েছেন, ডা. ডেভিস জানিয়েছিলেন তা ঠিক নয়। তিনি বলেছেন, 'সরকারী কর্মকর্তারা বাংলাদেশের জেলাওয়ারী হিসাব করেছেন। সারা দেশের ৪৮০টি থানার ২৭০টি পাক সেনাদের দখলে ছিল। প্রতিদিন গড়ে দুজন করে নিখোঁজ মহিলার সংখ্যা অনুসারে লাঞ্ছিত মহিলার সংখ্যা দাঁড়ায় দুই লাখ। এই সংখ্যাকে চূড়ান্তভাবে নির্ভুল অঙ্করূপে গ্রহণ করার সিন্ধান্ত হয়।'। ডা. ডেভিস মনে করেন এই সংখ্যা ৪ লাখ থেকে ৪ লাখ ৩০ হাজারের মতো হবে।
> > ব্যক্তিগতভাবে আমার মনে হয়েছে, ধর্ষিত ও নির্যাতিতদের সংখ্যা এর চেয়ে বেশি। নিউজ উইকের একটি প্রতিবেদনের কথা ধরা যাক উদাহরণ হিসেবে। ১৯৭১ সালের ১৫ নবেম্বর পত্রিকাটি লিখেছিল, মুক্তিবাহিনীকে দমন করার নামে কিছুদিন আগে পাক সেনারা ডেমরা নামে এক গ্রামে অভিযান চালায় (যেখানে মুক্তি বাহিনী আদৌ ছিল না)। তারা ১২ থেকে ৩৫ বছরের সমস্ত মহিলাকে ধর্ষণ করে এবং গুলি করে মারে ১২ বছরের বেশি বয়সের সমস্ত পরুষদের ।
> > ডা. ডেভিস এ পরিপ্রেক্ষিতে এক প্রশ্নের জবাবে বলেছিলেন
> > 'প্রশ্ন : পাকিস্তানের অসংখ্য নথিপত্রে এখনও বলা হয়, ধর্ষণের ঘটনার সংখ্যা অত্যন্ত বাড়িয়ে বলা হচ্ছে। আপনি কি তাদের এ দাবি সত্য মনে করেন?
> > জেফ্রি : না, না... তারা ধর্ষণ করেছে। সম্ভবত তারা প্রকৃতই যা করেছে, তার তুলনায় অনেকগুণ কম সংখ্যা দাবি করা হয়। তারা যে পদ্ধতিতে শহর দখল করত তার বিবরণ খুব কৌতূহলোদ্দীপক। তারা তাদের পদাতিক বাহিনীকে পেছনে রেখে গোলন্দাজ বাহিনীকে সামনে নিয়ে আসত। তারপর হাসপাতাল, স্কুল-কলেজে গোলা ছুড়ে গুড়িয়ে দিত। এরফলে শহরে নেমে আসত চরম বিশৃঙ্খলা আর তারপর পদাতিক বাহিনী শহরে ঢুকে পড়ে মেয়েদের বেছে বেছে আলাদা করত। শিশু ছাড়া যৌনভাবে ম্যাচিওরড সকল মেয়েকে তারা একত্রে জড়ো করত। আর শহরের বাকি লোকজনকে বন্দী করে ফেলত পদাতিক বাহিনীর অন্যরা। আওয়ামী লীগের সঙ্গে যুক্ত সবাইকে গুলি করে মেরে ফেলা হতো। আর তারপর মেয়েদের পাহারা দিয়ে কম্পাউন্ডে নিয়ে এসে সৈন্যদের মাঝে বিলিয়ে দেয়া হতো। অত্যন্ত জঘন্য একটা ব্যাপার ছিল এটা। বিশ্বের কোথাও কখনও এমন ঘটনার নজির পাওয়া যায় না। তবুও, এমনটাই ঘটেছিল।'
> > হ্যাঁ, যুক্তির খাতিরে বলা যেতে পারে, বাংলাদেশের ৬৪ হাজার গ্রামে তো পাকিস্তানী সৈন্যরা যায়নি। কথাটা ঠিক, ৬৪ হাজার গ্রামে পাকিস্তানী সৈন্যরা যায়নি; কিন্তু যেসব গ্রামে গেছে সেখানেই তারা মেয়েদের সর্বনাশ করেছে। আমরা এখানে যে ঘটনাগুলো বর্ণনা করেছি তাতে একটি প্যাটার্ন ফুটে উঠেছে। তাহলো : গ্রামে গ্রামে তারা সুনির্দিষ্টভাবে মেয়েদের জন্য হানা দিচ্ছে, শহরাঞ্চল থেকে মেয়েদের উঠিয়ে নিচ্ছে, সে এক ভয়াবহ অবস্থা। অনেক জায়গায় রাজাকার বা শান্তি কমিটির সদস্যরা মেয়েদের তুলে নিয়ে গেছে। ধর্ষিতা নারীদের একটি অংশ আত্মহত্যা করেছে, মেরে ফেলা হয়েছে। একটি অংশের পরিবার-পরিজন ধর্ষণের কথা কখনও স্বীকার করেনি সামাজিক কারণে। ফলে সঠিক সংখ্যা কখনও জানা যাবে না। সরকারী কর্মকচারীরা তখন নানাবিধ কারণে ধর্ষিতার সংখ্যা কম করে দেখাতে চেয়েছে। এর পেছনে যে মানসিকতা কাজ করেছে তাহলো এক ধরনের অপরাধবোধ। কারণ, এই মেয়েদের রক্ষার দায়িত্ব আমরা যে কোন কারণেই হোক পালন করতে পারিনি। অনেকের কাছে এটি লজ্জার ...
> >
> > read more »



--
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS


__._,_.___


****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration: 
Call For Articles:

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68

http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585

****************************************************

VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/

****************************************************

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
               -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190




Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe

__,_._,___