>>>>>>>>> I was referring to Islam here. You are right there are multiple interpretation among many religious people, however for few things like conducts between men and women have been clearly defined by Islam. So no amount of "Interpretations" can justify harassing women or torturing a woman.
I am well aware of distortions by some religious people in Bangladesh but the scriptures are very clear about it and NO one can deny it if he/she is a believer.
That is why when I say, Islam does not support how Pakistani solders or their helpers looted and raped many Bengali women, NO one can deny it. They may dispute about numbers and other points but their is NO Islamic justification to looting, rape and torture of many Bengali women.
When people talk about religious discrimination of women in Islam, they are not talking about rape and torture of women only; they are talking about the whole treatment of woman in Islam. Islam is the only religion which has devised reprisal for non-compliance of a woman at her husband's sexual advance. Why would woman be subjected to such a mental and/or physical torture when she is not willingly participating in an activity with her husband? Such punishment is a violation of rights of women, if you care to understand, which is expected only in case of a slave. Where am I wrong here?
>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly Islamic point of view is DIFFERENT than yours. Islam gave same status to men and women but it acknowledges that men and women are different. So there are different roles of men and women. First of all, in a relationship men have been given some powers and at the same time he has much greater responsibility than women.
As far as role of women in a family setting is very similar to what Jewish and Christian women have been given. However Islam does give the right to a women to divorce her husband if she does not have physical satisfaction from her husband. Just imagine over 1400 years ago this right was given to her. Even today Hindu women have no right to inherit property but Muslim women had her share codified over 1400 years ago AND her husband cannot claim a dime/paisa from it UNLESS it is given freely by the wife. These are all codified laws and many similar privileges have been given to women.
Now if a husband's sexual advances gets to a point when it becomes torture (Some people in the west torture themselves in the process willingly!), she can request for divorce. In fact, the right to divorce can be added in the marriage contract (From women) and it is accepted in Islam. I found very few people (Let alone women) know about these rights.
The comparison with slave was not correct. Unlike Christianity or Hindu marriages, marriage in Islam is a CONTRACT (Like any legal contract) between parties. It is agreed upon by both to live according to Islamic norm. As I said, there are cases where women can initiate divorce if her husband violated this contract. If you ask me (Like I said many times here) Islamic law is not the main problem here but lack of knowledge about these rights are the main issue.
For example, compare to other faiths Islam is VERY liberal about women remarrying if her husband dies at early age. Islam never restricted women from owning and operating businesses. Lastly treating women fairly was such an important part in Islam, it was one of the last two subjects prophet Muhammad (PBUH) stressed during his last large sermon (During his last hajj). The other topic was discrimination based on skin color, ethnicity etc. He knew humankind will struggle with these two topics for a long time, so he warned us against treating women unfairly and against treating people unfairly (based on race).
Last messenger of Allah (PBUH) said (His sermon during his last hajj)....
O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under a trust from God and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. ..................
[ Source: The last sermon of Prophet Muhammad which he delivered at Hajj, the annual pilgrimage made to Mecca by Muslims all over ]
Obviously, most Muslim will not follow such prescription; but, if some do, that will not be in violation of following Islam properly either. Therefore, do not view or judge everything through your Islamic way. It is time to understand that - no religion is perfect. Smart people pick only the good ones. I believe you are one of those smart people.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not the one who judge everything based on religion. It is the so called atheists who cannot stop talking about religion. I simply share what religion speaks about the topic we are discussing. Nothing more...
Shalom!
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 15, 2013 11:13 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Essay - Contentedness in Diversity
When people talk about religious discrimination of women in Islam, they are not talking about rape and torture of women only; they are talking about the whole treatment of woman in Islam. Islam is the only religion which has devised reprisal for non-compliance of a woman at her husband's sexual advance. Why would woman be subjected to such a mental and/or physical torture when she is not willingly participating in an activity with her husband? Such punishment is a violation of rights of women, if you care to understand, which is expected only in case of a slave. Where am I wrong here?
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Essay - Contentedness in Diversity
>>>>>>>>> More accurately most men (Not all) tries to discriminate against women. Sometime they do it knowingly and sometime unconsciously (Culture). Your comment about Mollah were accurate but now a days people have access to information (TV, Video, internet, books etc) more than ever. Today you will see young men and women following religion more sincerely than ever before and many of them are highly educated.
They are not afraid of being mocked or heckled by fanatic seculars. You can walk into any top Universities and observe it. In fact, Islam (Since some members are obsessed with Mullahs) have some modest dress codes (For both men and women) to make us humble.
My point is that instilling religiosity in one is no guarantee that he will not commit the crime.
>>>>>>>> I agree. In fact at no time anyone claimed that any system can guarantee any type of behavior unless our freedom is highly restricted. Every communities in the world has problem with crime and have massive prison (US has the highest number of prisoners compare to population) system to punish criminals.
However when someone follows Islam PROPERLY (Not partially), it can have positive effect on crimes against women. As per my observation religious people are less likely to commit rape and torture.
It is also worth noting, NO country or community can ensure 100% compliance of laws of country or religion. That is why it is vital that we punish criminals. The culture of impunity encourage more people to commit crime.
Taslima Nasrin as a young girl was raped by her distant uncle. Her father used to spend abnormally long time with a female patient in her chamber making her mother depressed. When she describes these bitter experiences of her life, many readers shed tears (prominent scholar and litterateur)Ketaki Kushari Dyson) and many call her shameless. Taslima is vocal and outspoken. We do not know what has happened in others' lives.
>>>>>>>>>> Being vocal against crime is a good quality. My objection to Taslima is for willful distortion of Islam. Over the time she has proven herself to be a drama queen. To get back at her father, she desroyed her own life. Not a sign of an intelligent or honest person.
She wanted to have 15 minutes of fame by bad mouthing Islam, she got it.
Shalom!
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 15, 2013 4:53 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Essay - Contentedness in Diversity
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Essay - Contentedness in Diversity
1 in 4 Men Surveyed in Asia and the Pacific Have Raped
[ Source: National Geographic ] However countries like Singapore and Malaysia see lot less rape incidents, since law and order (Police, courts etc) are much better and effective as deterrent. If you look up news from India, things are actually equally bad for women. Despite we had women as heads of state over last two decades, we did not see any fundamental change in providing minimum safety of women. Excessively religion people do not ELECT women as heads of state back to back like this ( Even America NEVER had a female president, they will probably elect a gay one before electing a woman).Aside from gender discrimination and suppression of women, imagine, for example, the covering up of food display in the month of Ramadan. Here the believers are supposed to be proving that they can go without food during the day for Allah. (I do not see why.) But if you are forcing others to cover their food display, you are not really testing your own mind for the power of giving up food for Allah. >>>>>>>> While I agree with you on this to some areas. I know some people go overboard in restricting food from people during Ramadan but in most cities it is not much of an issue. I appreciate the fact those who do not fast, they generally show courtesy and do not eat openly but most do have access to food during Ramadan. For the same reason, I support those people who do not eat beef in front of their Hindu friends or neighbors. It is call courtesy and I strongly support such token of good will. FYI, we fast because of religious reasons. As far as I know most religions (Including Hindus and Christians) have some sort of fasting rituals to purify their souls. I would expect someone with your level of education to have some primary knowledge about it. When people are stupid, they are generally that in many respects. Consequently, they cause and accept injustice, and make this world a miserable place for a lot of good people. >>>>>>> guess that is why gross injustice in human history was performed by the people who did not have faith in God. Communists in Russia and China, Nazis in Germany committed more crime against humanity than any other groups. Shalom!
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "mukto-mona-owner@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona-owner@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 2:59 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Essay
মাথা ব্যথা হলে মাথা কেটে ফেললে যেমন সমস্যার সমাধান হয় না। ঠিক তেমনি সমাজের যে জায়গায় ক্ষত হয়েছে সেই জায়গা টুকুর চিকিতসা না করে ঢেকে রাখার চেষ্টা চলছে। যার ফলে সমস্যা আরো ঘনিভুত হয়েছে। মেয়ে মানূষকে আড়াল করে যদি কোন পুরুষ জিতেন্দ্রীয় ঘোষনা করে, তাহলে সে জয়ী হতে পারে না। কারন সে তো পরীক্ষিত সত্যের মুখো মুখি হয়নি। বৈপরিত্বের মধ্যে পরীক্ষিত সত্য রয়েছে। যে সমাজে বৈচিত্র বা বৈপারিত্বের কোন স্থান নেই সেই সমাজতো মানুষের জন্য নিরাপদ নয়। একটি খেলার মাঠে শুধুই পুরুষের উপস্থিতি হবে কোন নারীর অবস্থান থাকবে না, এটি তো অসভ্য সমাজের অপ্রকৃতিস্থ্য আচরন প্রকাশ পায়। নারী ও পুরুষের সমান অবস্থান আমাদের সমাজে কোথাও তেমন দেখা যায় না। বাংলাদেশী একটা ছেলে বা মেয়ে যখন উন্নত দেশে পড়াশুনা করতে আসছে তথন তারা বিপরীত লিঙ্গের সহিত এক সংগে কাজ করতে বেশ অস্বস্থি অনুভব করে। এর কারন হলো দেশীয় সমাজ কাঠামোর মধ্যে নারী ও পুরুষ পৃথক ব্যবস্থায় অভ্যস্থ। ছেলেদের ক্ষেত্রে এটি আরও বেশী প্রকটতা পায়। কানাডায় আমেরিকায় স্কুল কলেজ ছেলে মেয়েদের জন্য পৃথক ব্যবস্থা নেই। তাই এখানকার ছেলে মেয়েরা ছোট কাল থেকে এক ধরনের পরীক্ষিত সত্যের মুখোমুখি হয়। সেই সত্যটি হলো নারী ও পুরুষের সহাবস্থান। যৌনতা নারী ও পুরুষের উভয়ের আছে। আমাদের সমাজে যৌনতাকে অচ্ছুত, নোংরা দৃষ্টিতে দেখা হয়। যার ফলে গোপনে যৌন নির্যাতন এক ভয়াবহ রুপ নিয়েছে। যে যৌনতার মাধ্যমে মানুষের জন্ম হয়, সেই যৌনতাকে কেন ঘৃনা করতে হবে? এর মধ্যেই সৃষ্টি লুকায়িত আছে। এটি যে একটি বিজ্ঞান, ও পাঠ্যপুস্তকের বিষয় হতে পারে তা আমাদের দেশের লোকে মানতে নারাজ। কারন এতে জাতপাত নষ্ট হয়ে যাবে এই ভয় দেখিয়ে গোপনে অপকর্ম চালিয়ে যাচ্ছে। যৌন তাড়না মিটানোর জন্য উন্নত দেশ গুলোয় নানা রকমের প্রতিষ্ঠান গড়ে তুলেছে। যেমন পিপ শো, ট্যাভার্ণ, ল্যান্ডকাস্টার, এডাল্ট ক্লাব ইত্যাদি। কারো দরকার হলে এই সব প্রতিষ্ঠানে যাবে। এতে কারো কোন ক্ষতি হচ্ছে না। যদি যৌনতার বানিজ্যিক ব্যবহার অনৈতিক হয় তবে কেন সেই নৈতিকতার দায়টা সেবা গ্রহীতার উপর ছেড়ে দেয়া হবে না! আসলে তাই হচ্ছে পশ্চিমের দেশগুলোতে। নিজের সাথে জেহাদটা মানুষকেই করতে দাও। পশ্চিম থেকে কিছু নেয়া যাবে না এগুলো না করে ওহাবী মনোভাব যত শীঘ্র ত্যাগ করা যায় ততই মঙ্গল। তাহলে পরিক্ষীত সততা প্রতিষ্ঠা পায়। তাতে যেমন সরকার আয় কর পাচ্ছে, সমাজ ও সুন্দর থাকছে। যৌনতা কোন অপরাধ না যখনি এটি জোর করে মানূষের উপর প্রয়োগ করা হয় ঠিক তখনই এটি অপরাধ। ঢাকা শহরে যে যৌনপল্লী গুলো ছিল সেই যৌন পল্লী গুলো উচ্ছেদ করে ঢাকা শহর পুরাটায় যৌনপল্লীকে ছড়িয়ে দেয়া হয়েছে। এতে সাধারন মানুষের নিরাপত্তা কমে গিয়েছে। ঢাকা শহর পুরাটাই যৌনপল্লীতে রুপান্তর হচ্ছে এটি মানতে অনেকেই নারাজ হলেও এর কিছু প্রমান আমার রয়েছে। বিশেষ করে ঢাকাতে যাদের বাড়ি রয়েছে, ভাড়া দিতে হয় শুধুই তারাই এই সমস্যার ভুক্তভুগি। বেশ কয়েক বছর আগে আমাদের ঢাকার বাসায় স্বামী স্ত্রী সেজে একটি ফ্লাট ভাড়া নেয়। ভাড়া নিয়ে তারা সেই ফ্লাটেই পতিতা বৃত্তি চালিয়ে যেতে থাকে। দু মাসের মাথায় এটি ধরা পড়ে। বাড়ি ছাড়ার নোটিস দিয়েও কোন কাজ না হলে, তখন পুলিশ এনে এই পতিতা বৃত্তি উচ্ছেদ করতে হয়েছিল। এই ঘটনা একবার নয় বহুবার হয়েছে। যেহেতু তাদের পল্লীগুলো উচ্ছেদ করা হচ্ছে তাই তারা যে কোন জায়গায় নতুন ঘাটি বাধছে।
ধর্মীয় ছত্রছায়ায় যৌন পীড়ন বেড়েছে বহুগুন। মাদ্রাসার যে শিক্ষা ব্যবস্থার মধ্যে ছেলেরা বেড়ে উঠছে তাদের মধ্যে যৌন পীড়নের মাত্রা বেশী। তাদের শারীরিক জৈবিক চাহিদাকে অস্বিকার করে একটি ধর্মীয় কড়া শাসনে মধ্যে বড় হতে হচ্ছে। তাদের মধ্যে সংস্কৃতিক বিনোদন নেই। নাচ গানকে হারাম করে বন্ধ করা হয়েছে। এই রুপ পরিবেশের মধ্যেই যৌন বিকৃতির বিকাশ ঘটে। এই জন্যই শফি সাহেবের মুখ থেকেই যৌন পীড়নের কথাটি বের হয়ে এসেছে। এই কথা নিয়ে মিডিয়ায় বেশ হৈচৈ হয়েছে কিন্তু কেউ অনুসন্ধান করেননি যে শফী সাহেবের মত লোক দ্বারাই সমাজে গোপনে তীব্র যৌন পীড়ন চলছে। সমাজকে সুন্দর ও বসবাস যোগ্য করতে হলে এই সব বিষয় নিয়ে গবেষনা অতি জরুরী।
সভ্যতার স্থায়ীত্ব রক্ষার জন্য সমাজে বৌচিত্রের স্থিতি অতি প্রয়োজন। এটা শুধু নারী পুরুষের সহাবস্থানই নয়, সব ক্ষেত্রে বৈচিত্রের ছাপ থাকতে হবে। তখন সততা সংগ্রামের মধ্য দিয়ে পরীক্ষিত হয়ে স্থায়িত্ব লাভ করবে। কবির ভাষায়-
অন্ধকারের উতস হতে উতসরিত আলো
সে তোমারই আলো
সকল দ্বন্দ্ব বিরোধ মাঝে জাগ্রত যে ভাল
সে তোমারই ভাল।
এটাই শেষ কথা।
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Sunday, September 15, 2013
Re: [mukto-mona] Essay - Contentedness in Diversity
When someone follows religion, obviously he/she thinks it's the right way. The question of right way and wrong way arises because Islam accommodates various ways to follow it. No two people follow a religion the same way. There is no unique way to follow a religion. Hindus, Buddhist, Christians follow their religion various ways. In fact, Hindus believe every way leads to the same destination. Also, Islam has been in practice for 1500 years; by now, people know the right or wrong way.
-----Original Message-----
QR: "However when someone follows Islam PROPERLY (Not partially), it can have positive effect on crimes against women. As per my observation religious people are less likely to commit rape and torture."
When someone follows religion, obviously he/she thinks it's the right way. The question of right way and wrong way arises because Islam accommodates various ways to follow it. No two people follow a religion the same way. There is no unique way to follow a religion. Hindus, Buddhist, Christians follow their religion various ways. In fact, Hindus believe every way leads to the same destination. Also, Islam has been in practice for 1500 years; by now, people know the right or wrong way.
Obviously, most Muslim will not follow such prescription; but, if some do, that will not be in violation of following Islam properly either. Therefore, do not view or judge everything through your Islamic way. It is time to understand that - no religion is perfect. Smart people pick only the good ones. I believe you are one of those smart people.
Jiten Roy
There is no denying the fact that religion in general discriminates against women. Mollahs being overprotective of women and being male chauvinists discriminate much more than common people. You can however sometimes see reverse picture among the educated and well to do families where men also accuse women of being abusive. Social status and economic freedom have empowered women which mollahs cannot accept. And obviously the mollahs use the tactic of using the fear factor.
Crimes against women are not restricted exclusively to believers or nonbelievers. I guess both groups are equally well. That's what reports indicate.
-----Original Message-----
There is no denying the fact that religion in general discriminates against women. Mollahs being overprotective of women and being male chauvinists discriminate much more than common people. You can however sometimes see reverse picture among the educated and well to do families where men also accuse women of being abusive. Social status and economic freedom have empowered women which mollahs cannot accept. And obviously the mollahs use the tactic of using the fear factor.
Crimes against women are not restricted exclusively to believers or nonbelievers. I guess both groups are equally well. That's what reports indicate. My point is that instilling religiosity in one is no guarantee that he will not commit the crime. Rosanara Begum is right when she says that too much restriction (because of religion or social practices) (personally I believe in some minimum restriction depending on the situation) on mixing of women and men is one of the culprits.
Taslima Nasrin as a young girl was raped by her distant uncle. Her father used to spend abnormally long time with a female patient in her chamber making her mother depressed. When she describes these bitter experiences of her life, many readers shed tears (prominent scholar and litterateur)Ketaki Kushari Dyson) and many call her shameless. Taslima is vocal and outspoken. We do not know what has happened in others' lives.
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
Geopolitical freedom from foreign powers is just one form of freedom, and a minor one at that. True freedom really has to come from within the socioeconomic system. For that true freedom, people need to think with reasoning, as opposed to having faith in, and fear of, the unseen
>>>>>>>>> If this was result of religion, picture of our whole region would have been different. SADLY it is not. In India, Nepal or Pakistan restriction of movement (On men as well, if you live in Dhaka) the big picture is not different. It is absurd to think God stopped anyone to move!! With excessive religiosity, most people, including most of the academically qualified ones, in backward countries are actually mostly uneducated, i.e., they do not think with reasoning. That is why, for example, criminality in the minds of men is attempted to be controlled by suppressing women through covering them up head to toe and by confining them at home. >>>>>>>> It seems your irrational obsession of religion forces you to abandon logic. Here is an article to help you out....
-----Original Message----- From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, Sep 14, 2013 11:10 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Essay - Contentedness in Diversity
Rosanara Begum has raised several important issues.
Geopolitical freedom from foreign powers is just one form of freedom, and a minor one at that. True freedom really has to come from within the socioeconomic system. For that true freedom, people need to think with reasoning, as opposed to having faith in, and fear of, the unseen.
With excessive religiosity, most people, including most of the academically qualified ones, in backward countries are actually mostly uneducated, i.e., they do not think with reasoning. That is why, for example, criminality in the minds of men is attempted to be controlled by suppressing women through covering them up head to toe and by confining them at home.
Aside from gender discrimination and suppression of women, imagine, for example, the covering up of food display in the month of Ramadan. Here the believers are supposed to be proving that they can go without food during the day for Allah. (I do not see why.) But if you are forcing others to cover their food display, you are not really testing your own mind for the power of giving up food for Allah.
When people are stupid, they are generally that in many respects. Consequently, they cause and accept injustice, and make this world a miserable place for a lot of good people.
Sukhamaya Bain
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From: rosonara begum <rosonara@yahoo.com>
Hi
I am sending an essay to publish, if possible do it.
Thanks.
বৈচিত্রেই স্থিতি
আমার জন্ম খুলনায়। স্বাধীন দেশে জন্মেও জন্মের পর থেকে আমি মুক্ত ভাবে বেড়ে ওঠার সুযোগ আমি পাই নাই। এর কারন হলো আমি মেয়ে মানূষ। বাইরের জগত মানেই পশুর বিচরন ক্ষেত্র। এই সব পশুর আচড় যাতে গায়ে পড়তে না পারে এই ভয় কানের ভিতর গেথে গিয়েছিল সেই ছোট কাল থেকে। যার ফলে মুক্ত বাতাস খাওয়ার সুযোগ আর হয়নি। আমার মত আরো অনেকেই আছে যারা কিছু বুনো জন্তুর ভয়ে মুক্ত বাতাস থেকে বঞ্চিত। বাংলাদেশ থেকে বের হয়েই আমি যথার্থ মুক্তি পেয়েছিলাম। তাই দূরে থেকে দ্বিধাহীন কণ্ঠে আমি বাংলা সমাজের সংস্কারের দাবী জানাই, দাবী জানাই ছোট ছোট ছেলে মেয়েদের নিরাপদ আবাস্থান ও মুক্ত বাতাস খাওয়ার অধিকার। দীর্ঘ চল্লিশ বছর আমরা পার করেছি স্বাধীনতার খেতাব নিয়ে, আজ আমি একে খেতাবই বলবো কারন আমি স্বাধীন দেশে জন্ম নিয়েও স্বাধীনতা ভোগ করতে পার নাই। আমার জন্মস্থানেই ছিল সুন্দরবন, ষাট গম্বুজ মজজিদ, যা আজও দেখা হয়নি। বাসা আর স্কুল এই পর্যন্ত ছিল আমার যাতায়ত। এর বাইরে যাতায়ত আমার মত মেয়ে মানুষের জন্য নিরাপদ নয়। এই ভাবে খুব নিরাপদে চলাফেরা করেও বিদ্যালয়ের শেষ পাসটি দিয়েছিলাম। এর পর বিবাহ সুত্রে কানাডায় পাড়ি জমাই। কিন্তু আমার সেই জন্মভুমি প্রিয় দেশটিকে আজও দেখা হয়নি। দূরে থেকে ভাবি দেশে গিয়ে সব জায়গায় বেড়াব। কিন্তু সেই বাংলার পথঘাট আজও নাকি নিরাপদ নয়। তাহলে এই দেশটি কিসের জন্য স্বাধীন হয়েছে? কেন আজও দেশ শত্রু মুক্ত হতে পারেনি? এই শুত্রুগুলো বাইরের কেউ না, দেশীয় সমাজ কাঠামোর দ্বারা দুষনযুক্ত শুত্রু।
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