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Sunday, November 3, 2013

Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism



Shankar-da,

As I said before, the best way to initiate a discussion on any subject is to make a case for it. Think of this forum as a court-room, where you make your case before the judge.

So, please make a case for Marx, and Marxism.  Tell us why we should learn more about Marx, particularly  now, when all those experts like - Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. miserably failed to implement Marx's theory.  You are not doing that. Instead,  you are asking readers to read about Marx without telling why. You asked us to read your article, I did that , but - no case was made there.  If you have a valid point why we need Marx now, please make that case. Otherwise,  I have no interest to learn more about Marx right now.

Jiten Roy



On Sunday, November 3, 2013 12:23 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
 
I did not say that you said those words. Actually, you did not say much and that is a problem. If you want to discuss your little pet subject, you should have a good scientific rigor to begin with before you demanding that from others. Since, we can't get much of your opinion except some references about Marxism, why not drop the subject and move on. I got no personal axe to grind with you, brother. To me Marxism is dead as a stone. It has no future as it was envisioned by Marx and his trusted disciples.

 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss


On Sunday, November 3, 2013 10:15 AM, Sankar Kumar Ray <sankarray62@rediffmail.com> wrote:
 
Again, you (SD) have assumed something about me arbitrarily, I never said, ' Marxism is science'. And never like religious bigots, did I look up at Marx as 'prophet'. I am not a Marxist but consider him the most acceptable among all philosophers and economists.I accept his motto, taken from Descartes, Doubt everything, and that prompts me to study and learn from Marx with a critical mindset. Permit me to state, bias against Marx or Marxism is not consistent with scientific temper, that too without adequate knowledge of Marx.

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sun, 03 Nov 2013 00:27:30
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism
 
Needless to say you won't get any better reception than what you have already got. You started this discussion, but you have not stated anything concrete about Marxism except to say that true Marxism has not been applied or studied. Now, I can't say Marxism is a social ideology because Marx hated that terminology. Your Hindustan time's snippet does not add anything more than what you stated already. It sounds like you are defending your prophet's honor and words because you are totally dedicated to his messages. Marxism is not Science, brother! I do work with science and face reviewers' critics everyday.
Thank you. I would rather rest my case here.
-SD



 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss


On Saturday, November 2, 2013 9:40 AM, Sankar Kumar Ray <sankarray62@rediffmail.com> wrote:
 
Please don't put your words into my pen. I never said Marxism is a 'social ideology', Marx used to hate the word ideology In fact, in German Ideology, Marx characterised as 'camera obscura'. Ideology suits capitalists and pseudo-Marxists or every official communist party of the 20th Century. In fact, I would not spare Lenin too here. I wrote a piece in the Hindustan Times, taking up this point.http://www.hindustantimes.com/comment/columnsothers/totally-off-the-marx/article1-839109.aspx

You put a question. 'Are you going to bring sociologists and doctors to make your point? '. This query is bereft of scientific temper. If one has to be objective, one will not ask/say who states or writes this/that. But if one does the opposite, one becomes subjective. It seems you don't have the patience even to read the seminal paper by Dr Clarke.

Frankly speaking, I erred in initiating the debate. It seems the papers/references, I mentioned are not even read by most of those who participated.

I seek apology for initiating the debate.

Wish you all the very best

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@gmail.com>
Sent: Sat, 02 Nov 2013 04:18:30
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism
 
Are you going to bring sociologists and doctors to make your point? My dear friend, this is an interactive forum, where you make your points with your own take about Marxism or any subject that you want to discuss. Your point has been so far is that Marxism is truly a great social ideology, but yet to be practiced/applied properly in any society? I say, there is a problem between the theory and its application. I can go as far as to say that even Marx, himself would not be able to put his theory in practice. Not then and not now!

Not to disappoint you entirely, I have no problem to say that I have profound respect for the man as a great economist and philosopher of our time. He made his mark and we owe him for his great contribution. Thank you.
-SD 


On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 12:21 AM, Sankar Kumar Ray <sankarray62@rediffmail.com> wrote:
I would request you to read a paper by a prominent Marxist sociologist-
Was Lenin a Marxist? The Populist Roots of Marxism-Leninism
Simon Clarke, Department of Sociology, University of Warwick (http://www.warwick.ac.uk/~syrbe/pubs/lenin.pdf)
.
I think the debate may get out of a stagnant state as most of you refuse to critically look at Lenin and Plekhanov.
Will come back to Paris Commune and Spanish revolution later.

From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Sent: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 06:34:53
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Cc: "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Leninism is no Marxism
 
"This is a grave misjudgement. From Plekhanov to Lenin-Trotsky, from Stalin to Mao, and from Gramsci-Lucas to Althusser one finds distortion of Marx. Marxism is yet to be applied , except partially in Paris Commune and Spanish Revolution (1930s)."

How do you conclude that Marxism was partially introduced in Paris Commune and Spanish Revolution? Why partially? And, what else was missing from that system? I find it very odd that you claim yourself as being not a perfect Marxist and yet, you are ready to judge other systems. Marxism was put in practice by some revolutionary leaders but it just did not work. The experiment went wrong and you conveniently call them Leninism or Maoism? What makes you so sure that Marxism is so precise that it can be applied in its pure form and it should work? I am not sure I understand your lines of arguments. As I said before, you sound like some of our Islamist, who still think that there is a purer form of Islam that solve all our problems.

It is laughable that you still dreaming of a day when pure Marxism will be applied somewhere on this earth and people will start singing Kumbaya my Lord? That sounds like a wet dream to me. 
-SD

 
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss


On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:42 PM, Sankar Kumar Ray <sankarray62@rediffmail.com> wrote:
 
I thought I would refrain myself from the debate about whether Marxism is valid or not.Sadly enough, most of the participants to whom I am too very grateful assume that Marxism has failed. This is a grave misjudgement. From Plekhanov to Lenin-Trotsky, from Stalin to Mao, and from Gramsci-Lucas to Althusser one finds distortion of Marx. Marxism is yet to be applied , except partially in Paris Commune and Spanish Revolution (1930s).

I am giving a link to another piece of mine in Daily Times (must be read critically)

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2013\09\23\story_23-9-2013_pg3_5.

But I want to draw attention of Mukto-mona members to MEGA, the historic project of publishing Marx and Engels, insulated from 'partyocracy. I wrote an introductory on MEGA in kafila.org, but I would suggest all to read
Publishing  Marx and  Engels  after  1989: The fate of the MEGA

Lastly, my knowledge of Marx and Marxism (Leninism etc) is journalistic, not at all profound.
Sankar Ray

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