A few years ago a very enthusistic discussion was going on in this forum with the main focus on Muhammad's personal life. It was very disgusting. I made a specific comment which went like this: counting how many wives Muhammad had will take us nowhere in a meaningful discussion. To me it was a very low level talk. That would not tell us any thing about the nature of a great religion like Islam. Similarly the myth that many ancient Indian sages were dishonest and immoral does not tell us anything about the great religion like Hinduismis. I agree with Jiten Roy that religious discussion should be broadbased. Also a myth must not be mixed with history while discussing a religion. Even delving into history must not be done without proper context and genuine references particularly if the topics are sensitive.
Then what should we do? Should we stop discussing religion in this forum? My answer would be a big NO. Personally I do not believe in divines revelation and authorities. Man is prime. He has limitations. Also he has the power to do and undo many things. Every thing he does needs to be challenged and scrutinized. Otherwise, the society cannot progress. One example, think about the orthodox caste system in Hinduism. In Hindu dominated India it is now illegal. If I look back to my childhood life, I can see a sea of change that has occurred over a small period of time. You can now see a non-Brahmin playing the role of a priest in Hindu religious celebrations, which was unginable even not in a very distant past. This has not happened easily. There were (and still there are) resistnces which the society had to overcome.
I have given examples only from the religion I was born into. If we look around we will notice the similar progress in every religious society. True, unfortunately there are still small and isolated pockets where rulers are using the religion as an opiate of the masses to continue suppressing the common people. If the more enlightened and progressive section of the peole does not challenge them, they will be in dark. Rational discourses are a key to social progress and development. Let us not be shy to do that. Let us challenge the merchants of religion and free people from prejudices and superstitions. I still remember what the confirmed atheist Dr. Ahmad Shariff said about 40 years ago: man will not quit religion. Soviet Union banned religion. It is coming back. Defying and banning religion is not a practical idea. But what is achievable is promoting the universally appealing religious teachings by continually interpreting and reinterpreting it in the light of the current circumstances and realities.
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
Mr. Mustafizur Rahman,
I knew that this is coming. That's why - about a month back, I asked a particular member of this forum not to quote from his religious scripture. My argument was that – if you bring your religion for discussion, others will criticize it, and you have to have the stomach for that situation. Many of you were upset and said that - he has the right to bring any topic for discussion in this forum. After all it is the Mukto-mona forum. Some opined that - I have no power to stop anything in this forum. You were all right. I have no power to stop anything.
My intention for this particular discussion thread was to discuss 'religion' in general, not a particular one. Someone introduced Islam into the discussion to show that Islam has solution for everything, and the cascade followed. Snce, I did not bring Islam into the discussion, you cannot say that I have targeted Islam. My personal opinion is – all religions are the same, and none of them are any good. I also do not like politics-with-religion, be that Islam or Hiduism or Christianity or any other religions. I hope - I have explained myself clearly. If not, let me know.
Again, I reiterate, do not bring your religion for discussion here if you cannot handle criticism of it. I sometime bring Hinduism into the discussion, an I am mature enough to handle the criticism.
Thank you.
Jiten Roy
From: MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com>
To: Mukto-mona Mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 5:47 AM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
To: Mukto-mona Mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 5:47 AM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
Kamal Das, Jiten Roy etc,
Will you STOP taking advantage of this Forum and refrain from spreading your venom against Islam?
Mustafizur Rahman
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com From: kamalctgu@gmail.com Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:07:31 +0600 Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
The core message was not convincing enough even to Abu Talib, the mentor and the protector of the prophet. The mesage is to obtain 72 houries and 28 gillmans in the afterlife with an everlasting erection. Even Ibn Sina wondered, how the prophet, being the intelligent man that he was, spread such rubbish. Then he came up with his own intelligent solution! Consider the intelligence of the average people of medieval times, and you have the answer. About the animal sacrifice, it is the practice in many cultures. The poor animal dies to serve the religion. In the primitive times, the first child was to be sacrificed as an expiation to the cardinal sin from which every child is born. Abraham himself was a butcher in the temple of Melech. As he was not sure of his fatherhood of his children, given his age and inability to sire any during his life, he exiled Ismael and Hagar to Mecca, and took Isaac to sacrifice as burnt offering to Moloch. But he changed his mind later and told the Canaanites that God intervened in the last moment. Abraham was used to telling lies. Earlier he passed Sarah as his sister to gain material advantages. Animal sacrifice has been a common practice across the world. There was no cheaper way to feed people in feasts. Cow sacrifice by Indian Muslims are intended only to anoy the local Hindus. Such practice is not the Arabian norm.
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 4:48 PM, sentu tikadar <sentu92003@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- On Thu, 11/10/11, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, November 10, 2011, 5:47 AMKilling of the Ahmediyas by the followers of Mowdoodi in Pakistan, killing and raping of freedom loving Bengalis in 1971, bombing of mosques to kill innocent Shiites in Pakistan and Iraq and somewhere else----are all these the acts by the secularists?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are right these were acts of half educated idiots who do not understand the core message of Islam. However atheist people have done more murdering of innocents than any religious people. Stalin, Mao (Of china) etc done their part in killing anyone who had a different point of view.-----Original Message----- From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Nov 10, 2011 6:37 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?Killing of the Ahmediyas by the followers of Mowdoodi in Pakistan, killing and raping of freedom loving Bengalis in 1971, bombing of mosques to kill innocent Shiites in Pakistan and Iraq and somewhere else----are all these the acts by the secularists?From: S A Hannan <sahannan@sonarbangladesh.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2011 2:16 AM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
Respected all,Atheists and secularists (who believe in naturalism and rationalism only and who deny role of religion in public life) are more menace to humanity, morality, civilization as history shows. Most of the wars including first and second great wars were waged by them.Most of the people of religions are good people. Many of them are misguided by secular political leaders or some ignorant and aggressive religious bigots.Religious people of all religions should fight these exploiters and stand for humanity, morality and social welfare.Shah Abdul HannanFrom: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jiten Roy
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 6:42 AM
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?@Nihar Singh:The true religious people - who are they? Whether they bother anybody or not - is not the issue. The issue is how much is their contribution towards the advancement of the modern society? Are people, who take part in the communal riots or blowup innocent people in the name of religion, any less religious? You may think so - but they don't.@Kamal Das:The New Testaments does not contain many of the violent verses of the Old Testament means these are not absolute truth. This is the point I am trying to make.Thanks.From: nihar singh <nihar_singh786@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
--- On Mon, 11/7/11, Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Are some religious people menaces in the society?
To: "Mukto-mona" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, November 7, 2011, 7:12 PMAre some religious people menaces in the society?I have been asking this question lately to myself. I tried to find the roles and contributions (I mean, real contributions) of religious people in the society that brought us here from the beginning of time. What I envisioned is that - religion played a very insignificant role towards our social, moral, and scientific developments in this world. Most of these developments are made by religiously indifferent people. The religious people mostly deal with and talk about things that are out of this world. As a result, many of these religious people are misfits and menaces in the society.Many argue that religion builds our moral character, and we learn good and bad from religion, etc. etc. I, on the other hand, think – good and bad we learn from our ancestors, and from our own experiences; religion has nothing to do with it. You might ask where our ancestors learned them from, in the first place. They learned good and bad from their ancestors' experiences, so on, and so forth. Most Chinese do not have any religion. When I asked a Chinese man - how most people there learn about good and bad without religion, he told me - they learn them from their elders' wisdoms. That's right; our ancestors transferred their knowledge and wisdom to us. Therefore, I truly believe – this world would have been a much better place without religion. Religions have divided us into many sectarian hateful clans, which are constantly fighting with one another.Many of us believe that religious doctrines and dogmas are heavenly absolute entities. They forget that - many of those doctrines, dogmas, and interpretations have already been modified from the original preaching during emancipation. For example, Old Testament has been replaced by the New Testament, many Quranic interpretations have been changed, and many Vedic/Puranic practices and interpretations have been changed, etc., etc. That means - religious teachings and practices are subject to change with the time, which means they are not so heavenly endowments as we believe them to be. This is a critical point to remember. Those who think otherwise are the menaces in the society.Jiten Roy
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