| JR: "If you disagree with any of these edicts, you are doomed to go straight to Hell QR: >>>>>>>>>>> I know it seems hursh. However when you drive your car in US highways, the speed limits are saying the same thing to YOU (You take it gracefully and follow it). It says IF you go over certain speed limit, you will get a ticket. If you are way pass that, initial warning, you may have to visit jail cell with hefty fine. Also if you break laws too many times, they may take your car driver's permit away from you.' QR, you are comparing God's rules with the human's rules. This is a problem with most religious people. They think of God as human being, with eyes, ears, mouth, etc. In Islam, God has no structure at all. A structure less entity cannot be human-like. If you think God is looking at your every move, you have a wrong conception of a structure less entity. God is not like that. You need to first know what is God.
When you say – God gave us free will to follow His rules, that's wrong. We have free will to follow or not human rules only. God's rules are absolute. We have no choice but to follow; violators always get punished. If you jump out of a running car, you get hurt; no choice there. You put your bare fingers in the fire, you get burned, no choice there. These are God's rules. Human did not make those rules. Human discovered them. As I said before, human has to discover God's rules. Whole universe moves around something. Planets moves around stars, moon moves around planets; these are God's rules. Do not get stuck in the human rules; it's nothing compared to God's rules.
Jiten Roy
--- On Sun, 2/3/13, QR <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Perception of God and Rituals of Prayers
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, February 3, 2013, 11:23 AM
It appears to me that writers of some of those scriptures were not so confident about their writings, and needed insurances to establish their edicts. As a result, they needed many intimidating clauses, such as - if you disagree with any of these edicts, you are doomed to go straight to Hell
>>>>>>>>>>>>> These are some thoughtful comments from member Roy. I'll share my two cents worth here....
It is important to read scriptures, words from leaders, events in context.
The background of scriptures (Abrahamic faiths) have a common ground. Which states that, God gave us "FREE WILL". We are free to obey our Maker or disobey our Maker. Therefore, the messengers (PBUT) and scriptures are sent as "Mercy" from our Maker with some direction for our lives, problems etc. It is understood by Muslims that, God does NOT depend on our prayers, devotion etc. These are rituals to help us spiritually (When practiced with understanding).
- if you disagree with any of these edicts, you are doomed to go straight to Hell >>>>>>>>>>> I know it seems hursh. However when you drive your car in US highways, the speed limits are saying the same thing to YOU (You take it gracefully and follow it). It says IF you go over certain speed limit, you will get a ticket. If you are way pass that, initial warning, you may have to visit jail cell with hefty fine. Also if you break laws too many times, they may take your car driver's permit away from you.
ESSENTIALLY saying similar things. They ALSO know most cars are capable for breaking speed limits.
Text books from divine origin simply states, you are born with some freedom and God (Out of His mercy) gave us some direction to be successful in this world and hereafter. It is up to YOU, to take direction or ignore it. If you have serious doubts about existence of God, you have the "Option" to ignore it and face music (When it comes!).
ust think about rituals we do in the name of religion, without ever thinking about the logical reasoning behind them.
>>>>>>>>>>>> As per Islam, you have plenty of "Logical" reasons behind rituals we follow. There are plenty of studies, books, seminars on such issues. If you are interested, just ask a scholar (A person with knowledge who will not take any monetary reward for answering). For example, Zakat (Ritual charity) is a great way to helping poor people in our soceity. Sadaqa is another great way of building roads, schools, masjids etc. Similarly when Muslims go for hajj, it awakens our spirit of brotherhood among people of all skin color. It had a great impact on an American Muslim, who broke away from path of racism and violence. I will agree with you, most Muslims in our sub-continent do have opportunity to LEARN about spiritual side of rituals they follow. I am glad 21st century Muslims are more educated than their previous generations and improving in this area. When I think about God's rules, I think of them as perpetual and absolute, >>>>>>>> So are the laws of land s all over the world. Most country will punish murderers, adulterers, thieves etc. The "Special" or "Unique" part of God's law (In Islam) is everyone is open for God's mercy and forgiveness until the last days of their lives. Too bad we don't talk about it but the door is ALWAYS open ....
"Say, 'O My servants, who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of God: for God forgives all sins, for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most-Merciful.'"
(Quran 39:53)
Peace!
----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Feb 3, 2013 4:27 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Perception of God and Rituals of Prayers | Thanks to Mesbah Uddin for giving us such a nice compilation of information that makes us think. I have no doubt in my mind that religion and religious doctrines are all concocted ideas from some people, and has very little to do with reality or divinity. Even if we believe that God communicated with some people, yet the fact that those people were illiterate and could not put together their instructions in writing should make us wonder about our scriptures, some of them were born hundreds of years after the fact. It appears to me that writers of some of those scriptures were not so confident about their writings, and needed insurances to establish their edicts. As a result, they needed many intimidating clauses, such as - if you disagree with any of these edicts, you are doomed to go straight to Hell. Ingenious thought of the writer, isn't it? This type of intimidation is only found in the scriptural-writings. In the real world, intimidation is only used for children, who are not capable of following logic and reasoning. Why scripture contains intimidations for grown-ups? It makes me wonder.
Just think about rituals we do in the name of religion, without ever thinking about the logical reasoning behind them. We beg and cry to God for something, like a child. Usually, someone beg and cry for something only when they haven't earned it. How about asking for or, better yet, demanding for something from God, if you have earned it. Does it make sense? When I think about God's rules, I think of them as perpetual and absolute, meaning scientific. Scientific knowledge does not need any intimidation to establish them. They are facts. I have no choice but to accept them. If I disagree, I am wrong. It's that plain and simple. Any rule that passes this litmus test is my God's rule. I just have to discover them. I wish scriptures could help me in that quest, but they can't, unfortunately. Jiten Roy
--- On Sat, 2/2/13, Mesbah Uddin <mesbah_uddin@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Mesbah Uddin <mesbah_uddin@hotmail.com>
Subject: [mukto-mona] Perception of God and Rituals of Prayers
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, February 2, 2013, 1:52 PM
Perception of God and Rituals of Prayers Mesbah Uddin The most revered scripture of Judaism, covering the emergence of God, and His laws, are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. They are collectively known as the Torah. According to Islamic belief, there were three more Prophets, prior to Muhammad. These Prophets' books are: Tawrat (Torah), Zabur (Psalms), Injil (Gospel), and Quran. These are the holy books that were revealed to Moses, David, Jesus and Muhammad, respectively. Besides Judaism, Torah is essentially common amongst the Catholic and Protestant segments of Christianity. The term "Old Testament" refers to those Divine Laws and orders, revealed to Moses before Christianity came into existence as one of the monotheistic religions. According to Islamic beliefs, the Quran (Furkan) was revealed to Muhammad as the "Last Testament". Here, in the Genesis we find God saying "Let there be light and there was light and God saw the light, that it was good" (Genesis 1: 3 & 4). "And on the seventh day God ended his works which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day ….. (Genesis 2:2). The perception of God, outlined in these scenarios of Godly powers, portrays God as being dependent on another power to make him see and feel the light as "good". That's not the only glitch – God had to take rest on the seventh day. Surely, God taking rest is a mind boggling scenario! Who then makes him tired? There are many references from the Old Testament in the Quran. Even then God is represented in the Quran as the supreme power, and not dependent on anything. He says "Kun Faiakun" meaning 'be and it is' (Qur'an, Surah Al-Baqarah: 117). "His Throne (Knowledge and Authority) extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them burdens Him not; and He is the Supreme, the Greatest." (Qur'an, Surah Al-Baqarah: 255). In general, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are known as monotheistic religions. Surprisingly, the monotheism of Christianity is not comparable to Judaism or Islam. Jesus is regarded as God in Christian faith and as such this perception of God deviates from the belief of one unseen God, the essential principle of monotheism. Besides, there are quite a few cultural edicts in Islam that are Identical to Judaism. Prohibition of consuming pork; performing circumcision; wearing headgear during prayer; are just a few to exemplify. Jesus Christ, though born in Bethlehem, a city neighboring Jerusalem, but Christianity of today, was born 325 years later in Nicaea of Turkey which is a small town across the Bosporus and in the neighbourhood of Istanbul. Here King Constantine presided over the first Ecumenical Council, held in the year 325, to put an end to the controversy as to the true nature of Jesus. Finally, after several passionate debates and chaotic brawls between two bishops, (Arius and Athenaeums), both from Egypt, the Council declared that Jesus is a composite of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. This is the fundamental root of Trinity. Jesus spoke in Aramaic and not in Hebrew. At the ninth hour of his crucifixions, Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which means in Aramaic, "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34). This text of the New Testament raises a mind boggling question. If Jesus were the God then whom did he address as "My God, my God"? Since then, the Catholic Churches started worshiping the statue of Jesus even though worshipping any statue is prohibited in the Old Testament: "…neither shall you setup any image of stones in your land to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God" (Leviticus 26:1) The Christianity of these days places far more importance on Santa Clause to symbolize Christianity. Christian children, almost all over the world, are exposed to their religion through Santa Clause, despite the fact that Santa had nothing to do with Christianity. Actually, the name Santa Clause is derived from Saint Nicholas, a Christian bishop around fourth century of Byzantine Turkey. He was known as being generous in giving gifts to the poor children during Christmas time. The prevailing Islam, though free from the inconsistencies of Judaism and Christianity in the perception of God, it is not free from veering away from its main holy book - the Quran. Most Muslims revere the Quran with such sacredness in mind that they keep the Quran up above shelves and beyond any touch of anybody prior to performing Wadu (Ambulation). As a result, most Muslims, despite possessing a book of the Quran in their chosen languages, hardly have the scope to know what it contains. Their knowledge of Islam is pivoted on those ill-educated Mullahs who are prone to pronouncing 'Fatwa' and arousing the fear of hell-fire when they face to answer any question beyond the capacity of their limited knowledge on Islam. How the Islamic prayer ritual came into practice in the Islamic world? It may be a simple question but it is annoying to most Muslims. Anyone, who had read the Quran, would find the full details of Wadu which is just a requirement prior to prayer. But strikingly, not a single word about how to perform 'Salat' (prayer), known as Namaz in the Indo-Iranian part of the world. Most answers, however, direct the finger on the Hadith of Bukhari (810–870). In reality, Hadith is a collection of sayings and doings of Muhammad and not the messages that are believed to have been revealed to him by God for the believers of Islamic faith. More to the point, Bukhari was from Bukhara of Uzbekistan and not an Arab from Mecca or Medina, where from Muhammad preached Islam. Even if Bukhari were an Arab, the difference of age between Muhammad and Bukhari would have been 240 years. Does it then mean that the prayer rituals, that the Muslims believe and have been following for generations, were not in practice for about 240 years after the death of Muhammad? The sayings and doings of Muhammad are Sunnah, which consists of what he believed, implied, or tacitly approved as opposed to Fard which is compulsion as ordained in the Qur'an. Apparently the Islamic prayer methods came into Islamic model after Muhammad's time and only after Bukhari compiled his Hadith literature? History tells us that Al-Mamun (786 – 833), the son of Harun ar-Rashid's Persian wife, was the governor of Khorasan in Persia. After hearing about his father's death, Al-Mamun rushed to Baghdad from Khorasan. To pave his way to the throne, he killed his step-brother Al-Amin. Immediately after this incident, he sensed an imminent revolt from the Arab territories of Harun ar-Rashid's Empire. Finding no alternatives, Al-Mamun then had to import a huge number of army from Turkey who were then mostly Nestorian Christians. The presence of Islam in Turkey dates back to the latter half of the 11th century and not during what is known as the Islamic empires. Even today, a vast majority of Turkish people are nominally Muslim. Within a short time, Al-Mamun found himself exiled to Samarra, a small city, about 80 miles north of Baghdad. Eventually, Baghdad turned into a city ruled by those military Generals, most of whom were Nestorian Christians. Strikingly, the Muslims' prayer rituals have substantial body movement with disciplined structure of words and orders. Though the Jihadi Muslims would find it uncomfortable, could it be that those Nestorian's military exercise eventually structured the existing 'Salat' rituals that the Muslims perform these days? The readers should bear in mind that Islam was still then in its infancy during Al-Mamun's time. The trendsetters were the ones who held the power. It is interesting to know that the existing Turkish alphabet, based on Latin script, was introduced by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the Turkish Republic. Besides alphabets, Ataturk also introduced Western legal codes, dress, calendar and many other reforms including emancipation of women, the abolition of all self-styled Islamic institutions. Sources: The Holy Bible (King James Version), The Holy Quran (translated by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall), The Outline of History - by H. G. Wells, Classical Islam - by G.E. Von Grunebaum ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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