It is true that, three of four rightly guided Kalifa were murdered. That shows there were good and bad people in every communities in all periods of our collective history. For example, Mahatma Gandhi was also murdered by a fanatic RSS ( A fanatic Hindu organization) member. A scholar of history would read that fact and blame RSS for being so intolerant and ignorant person would laugh at how lame Mahatma's ideas were since he "Had to be killed" (Or Hindus did not want the British to leave India!!).
Both are points of view based on ONE fact of history. The fundamental issue here is NOT the history rather who is trying to extract what out of a valid history.
In recent history of Bangladesh both leaders of our freedom movement (Sheikh Mujibur Rahman and Ziaur Rahman) were murdered by their own people. Does that make our "Aspiration for freedom" invalid???
The battle between good and evil took place many times in human history. Trying to extract wisdom out of it will take a little more reading of the "Context" rather than just the "Text" itself.
[ Source: Al Qur'an 2:256]
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Jan 30, 2012 9:38 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
From: subimal@yahoo.com
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 18:51:50 -0800
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
To: Mukto-mona Mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 10:57 PM
Subject: RE: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
From: jnrsr53@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 18:56:16 -0800
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 7:23 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
To start with it is nor right to expect Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) to ban slavery overnight. Let me offer an example.
All of us can agree that child labor is a horrible thing for countries like Bangladesh, India and Pakistan. HOWEVER if you have to cancel it overnight, it would cause more pain to those children and their families unless it is a slow gradual process.
Islam is a religion of middle path and a practical religion (If you understand it properly). So it was clearly against making free people into slaves. The Qur'an says...
I'll share a little from a German scholar on Islam
Shalom!!
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Jan 25, 2012 3:40 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
To: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>; Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Mukto-mona's new policy in effect
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2012 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 8:19 AM
Subject: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
-Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190
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Tuesday, January 31, 2012
Re: [mukto-mona] How to follow religions correctly
The problem with some of us that, when we "Decided" to look for filth, we end up with filth ONLY.
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
"Modern laws are not sufficient,...". the ranting of a medieval crackpot is. "... history tells us that just Muslim rulers ensured peace in their territories", what a historian!! Three of four rightly guided Caliphs bled to death, the first one was poisoned; the prophet himself had a dubious one. How the Abbasids came to power? They simply slaughtered the Umayyads after inviting them to dinner. It seems that 'peace' is a three letter spelled W-A-R. This guy should be appointed Khatib in our national mosque.
2012/1/30 MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com>
No where did I say " that Islam supports enslavement of non-Muslim prisoners of war. " Because it does not!! And in the Quran one will find universal laws applicable for all times to come. Modern laws are not sufficient, or else we would not see amendments of national constitutions and brawls over these amendments. Yes today most of the Muslim countries are in turmoil. But the reason is because the enemies of Islam are forever conniving to disturb them. They either plant governments who do not practice true Islamic edits or cause external problems with their money and technology. But history tells us that just Muslim rulers ensured peace in their territories. Coining words like " half-literate Islamic teachers " doesn't help either. Whose standard of literacy are you referring to?
Mustafizur Rahman
"One does need to be an expert to decipher that Islam discourages slavery in any form."-----M. Rahman.
That's what I knew. Then all of a sudden QR or MR informed that Islam supports enslavement of non-Muslim prisoners of war. Islam discourages slavery, but much much better modern law prohibits slavery. So the world is better with modern law as the substitute for the Quranic teachings. Also modern law is sufficient. As a matter of fact, universal principles of all religions can be incorporated into modern law so that religious laws (example, Shariah Law) become redundant. Given the pluralistic societies, thinking in this line has become so urgent.
I know half-literate Islamic teachers teach the young kids that one day the entire world will embrace Islam. I am saying this from my own experience.
Can any one give me an example of an Islamic country where everybody isor was in peace? Thinking in terms of a purely religious society is totally unproductive and divisive. Let us keep our religion within our spiritual world.
I know what Quran said. That's not the point. The point is – is that a viable option, or, is that a solution to slavery? I know some people think so, without thinking. Let's do some thinking; shall we?
You believe that slavery will be over when everybody accepts Islam. Now, can you put your hand on your heart and tell me that - there is no Muslim in this world who owns a slave or slaves? Or, there are no slave-laborers in any Islamic country in the world? You can't, because - there are many slaves in the Islamic kingdoms around Africa and Middle East even in this day and age.
I am sure you know that - thousands of workers, especially women, from Malaysia , Indonesia , Thailand , Burma , etc. were brought in the Middle East ( Saudi Arabia , Qatar , etc.) as maid-servants. When they arrived, they were assigned to their respective owners. It is a major violation of contract, if any servant tries to change the owner. To keep the maid under control, the owner confiscates her/his work permit and passport. As a result, maid can never go to somebody else to seek better pay or better job or leave the country to go back to their own country whenever they want. These women are sexually violated and abused; these are modern day slaves. Many of them have committed suicide; others are trying to escape, but nowhere to turn.
I know you will say that those owners are violating the tenets of Islam. You may be right. But, that's a lot of violators, probably - in the millions, at the heart of the Islamic world. Now, can you guarantee me that no one will violate this particular Islamic tenets when everybody (?) in the world embraces Islam? And, also tell me - when that happy time will come. I don't want the solution of slavery at the end of the eternity. As you know, Christians have the very same goal, which is - proselytize the entire world into Christianity. Are they going to sit idle in the mean time? How about billions of Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and Atheists?
Before you believe in something, do some analysis, and think about it logically. Don't be an intelligent blind believer; I know - it does not make sense. Believing in something blindly does not make sense also.
Jiten Roy
From: MUSTAFIZUR RAHMAN <mustafiz84@hotmail.com>
One does not need to be too caustic to Annemarie Schimmel ! The Holy Quran does not hide the fact that it wants the whole mankind to embrace Islam. Those who want to spread Islam do so openly and hope that one day " everybody in the world accepts Islam." One need not be a genius to understand this much. The question is what does Islam preach about slavery. Does it encourage it or discourage it? That is the moot question. One does need to be an expert to decipher that Islam discourages slavery in any form. The Holy Quran and the Prophet of Islam have been unambiguous on this message. No need to try and muddle up this message.
Mustafizur Rahman
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
"Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war can become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim; therefore slavery is theoretically doomed to disappear with the expansion of Islam."
Whoever opined like this - thinks that, we don't need to look for any other remedy for slavery, it will be abolished when everybody in the world accepts Islam. What a genius that guy is!
Finally, we all can sleep well thinking that slavery is going to be over soon. What a relief!
Jiten Roy
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
"Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war can become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim; therefore slavery is theoretically doomed to disappear with the expansion of Islam."----Q. Rahman.
This is better than enslaving all prisoners of war including Muslims. At least Muslims are spared. Muslim warriors kept on conquering non-Muslim kingdoms for many centuries after the death of the prophet. That means slavery could not be brought to an end and with every conquest the world saw more and more slaves. I see this as follows: slavery has always been a profitable one. Religions like Christianity and Islam had to accept and help sustain this unethical and immoral institution until the age of enlightenment (may be 15th century) denounced it. Probably we all know that African slave dealers opposed the abolition of slavery by America.
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
I think I can add couple of cents to this dialogue. It also ordered it's followers to treat slaves fairly.
It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and each and every act of obedience to Allâh, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in Allâh, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masâkin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and gives the Zakât, and who fulfill their covenant when they make it, and who are As-Sâbirin (the patient ones, etc.) in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are AlMuttaqûn (pious).
[ Source: The Noble Qur'ân Al-Baqarah 2:177 ]
and Islam motivated it's followers to get out of the system of slavery.
Allâh will not punish you for what is uninentional in your oaths, but He will punish you for your deliberate oaths; for its expiation (a deliberate oath) feed ten Masâkin (poor persons), on a scale of the average of that with which you feed your own families; or clothe them; or manumit a slave. But whosoever cannot afford (that), then he should fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths when you have sworn. And protect your oaths (i.e. do not swear much). Thus Allâh make clear to you His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) that you may be grateful.
[ Source: The Noble Qur'ân An-Nur 2:221 ]
I saw Abu Dhar Al-Ghifari wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a cloak. We asked him about that (i.e. how both were wearing similar cloaks). He replied, "Once I abused a man and he complained of me to the Prophet. The Prophet (peace be upon him) asked me, 'Did you abuse him by slighting his mother?' He added, 'Your slaves are your brethren upon whom Allah has given you authority. So, if one has one's brethren under one's control, one should feed them with the like of what one eats and clothe them with the like of what one wears. You should not overburden them with what they cannot bear, and if you do so, help them (in their hard job).' "
[ Source: Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari 3.721, Narrated Al Marur bin Suwaid ]
I think most of us know the story of Bilal (RA). By asking him to call people to prayer, prophet Muhammad (PBUH) elevated this dark skinned ex-slave in front of Arabs. These are revolutionary steps when you understand all these were done over 1400 years ago!!
Annemarie Schimmel in "Islam: An Introduction", p. 67
Slavery was not abolished by the Koran, but believers are constantly admonished to treat their slaves well. In case of illness a slave has to be looked after and well cared for. To manumit [free] a slave is highly meritorious; the slave can ransom himself by paying some of the money he has earned while conducting his own business. Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war can become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim; therefore slavery is theoretically doomed to disappear with the expansion of Islam. The entire history of Islam proves that slaves could occupy any office, and many former military slaves, usually recruited from among the Central Asian Turks, became military leaders and often even rulers as in eastern Iran, India (the Slave Dynasty of Delhi), and medieval Egypt (the Mamluks). Eunuchs too served in important capacities, not only as the guardians of the women's quarters, but also in high administrative and military positions.
Hope this will help members to understand Islamic point of view on this topic.
-----Original Message----- Presentation of a relevant fact does not have to be professional or scholarly.
I suppose the position of Islam on slavery was not the best example for "following the essence of what is good in a religion"; it was an OK example. My reading of the Koran actually tells me that the religion asks its followers to treat slaves with fairness, and considers freeing a slave to be a good deed. It does not condemn slavery, nor does it provide any clear cut reward for freeing a slave.
However, that does not change my concept of how to follow religions properly or correctly. I do not think following anything in any religion that is more than a thousand years old should be done literally. Even the good things in them should be judged for their essence, and adapted to fit the good common senses of the civilized human minds.
Sukhamaya Bain
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@...>
Muhammad himself was not rich enough to possess any slave. However, after marriage, he owned a few. The most prominent of them was Bilal who became the first muezzin in Islam. History also records him punishing another bunch of slaves who escaped with death. I wonder if Subimal Chakravarty found this article 'scholarly'.
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To me, following any religion "correctly" would be to follow the essence of what is good in it, dump what is bad in it, and not waste too much time trying to prove something in it to be good when it actually looks pretty bad. I do not have the patience to hear the context in which something hateful was uttered in a religious book. Hateful words in a religious book do necessarily make that religion bad. To me, the context does not matter, because a hateful utterance is very likely to make the average follower hateful; the average follower is likely to have no time or wisdom to see the context. Also because most human beings should not have too much time to spend on religions; they need to keep using, developing and improving science and technology, without which even the religious fanatics would not have the quality of life that they are enjoying.
Here is an example of what I call "following the essence of what is good in religions." Mohammad's preaching of Islam had praise and rewards for people who freed slaves; he did not abolish slavery through his religion. To me, that was great in the 6th century; and I can respect him for that. But now, we are not as primitive as the 6th century people, we can do better than that. We not only abolish slavery, we treat all innocent humans with respect and dignity; we even afford a good deal of dignified treatment to criminals.
Sukhamaya Bain
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