Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita

I notice a basic similarity between Mohiuddin Anwar and Kamal Das. Both have the attitude of attacking members illogically or using logic that is far removed from the main theme. Mohiuddin's familiar words are India, Hindu, AL, BAKSAL, Hasina, Dada, and so on. He tries to explain every thing in terms of these several words. Very carefully he avoids Jamaat, BNP, Saudi Arabia, and other  things. It is expected of Anwar as he politically and ideologically is wedded to some thing that has been rejected by our progressive forces. Kamal Das's favorite phrases are "your are ignorant", "I know" (I have hardly seen any one so much full of himself), etc. which dominate his responses. He can learn from others like Bain, Roy, M. Rahaman, and others the art of writing responses. He stoops to low and picks "special" examples. He does not understand that Gandhism or Muhammedanism (for examples) cannot be explained by personal characters of the person concerned. This is true for any great person whose thoughts and ideas have impacted the human progress. We don't need to make it so aggressive. We need to learn and share. 

I drifted a little bit away from the main topic. Sorry for that. Currents of thoughts do not flow in the same direction. Sir Syed Ahmad advocated for laerning English. Why should we ignore that? Are all the subcontinental muslims submerged in medieval scriptures? Kamal Das does not do any reality check andhe relies too much on his favorite "Bokoharam" theory. Did not a large section of Hindus "push themselves backward" too? It was forbidden to cross the oceans. Sanskrit schools run by a single Brahmin Sanskrit scholar teaching only orthox ideas were flourishing at one time. Every one is coming out of that. I don't know what Jinnah's "confession" has to do in the present context. He himself was an western educated man.       

From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita

 

QAR is not good even at making stories.  Indian Muslims do not agree with him.  I would suggest the 'Muktomona' members to read 'The Widening Divide' by Rafiq Zakaria.  Indian Muslims having a 'Bokoharam' attitude to western education pull themselves backward.  Remember how Jinnah did a sprint competition?  Knowing that he could not win running forward, he did it in opposite direction.  He did it all his life.  And in death bed, he confided to a reporter, "The greatest mistake of my life was founding of Pakistan"  His ego did not permit him to be aware that the British rulers would divide India with or without him.

2012/2/25 Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>

 

QAR Said: The Indian "Muslim" story is similar. There are advantages for being part of India and at the same time historical discrimination is still there. Like most countries of the world these biases has been passed down from generations to generations. West Bengal is known to be a liberal state of India but the state of Muslims in that state is pretty bad. Not too long ago Muslim students had the change their names (A religion neutral names like Chowdhury or Halder) when applying for jobs or sitting for exams. Currently most Muslim men are so frustrated with the "System" that many of them stopped going to higher   education. You are right - the condition of Muslims in India is not good. Their situation is more like the situation of African American community in the USA. Just like US African Americans, Muslims tend to consider themselves as victims also, no matter where they are.  They tend to blame every thing on the victimhood. This state of mind is bound to affect morale, self-esteem, and success in life. Vested interest groups take advantage of their state of mind, and use it in their favor.  West Bengal is flooded with Madrassas. If you spend so much of your adult life earning an education that is not usable to make a living, you can't expect to be successful in life. Can you?    Many Hindus from West Bengal complain about so many Madrassa educated Muslims, who can't do anything in the society, except subversive activities. These are victims of vested interest groups. I tell them, if those peope choose such impoverish lifestyle – what can you do for them? It's like people are opting for meager life-style. It is hard to understand. That's why - I don't like religion at all. Religion has brought us only despair and trouble on earth. That's a fact – no matter what your explanations are in favor of religion.   Jiten Roy--- On Fri, 2/24/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote: From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 24, 2012, 7:01 AM   Want to add my two cents... There are no countries in this world who "Got it right" when it comes to have a "Perfect system". India enjoys a lot of advantage for being a democratic country and for having a strong press (Which occasionally defends common people!). Even those members of this forum knows a bit about USA knows it is also far from being perfect. It has a near perfect constitution but implementation of it often were influenced by culture and race relations. So dark skinned African-Americans had to wait hundreds of years to have the right to vote or sit in the same restaurant with white Americans. Women were given right to vote around 1920. The Indian "Muslim" story is similar. There are advantages for being part of India and at the same time historical discrimination is still there. Like most countries of the world these biases has been passed down from generations to generations. West Bengal is known to be a liberal state of India but the state of Muslims in that state is pretty bad. Not too long ago Muslim students had the change their names (A religion neutral names like Chowdhury or Halder) when applying for jobs or sitting for exams. Currently most Muslim men are so frustrated with the "System" that many of them stopped going to higher education. They go to big cities with some training on craftsmanship (Like Gold smith) and set up their own businesses. Lately many of them were harassed because Mumbai police assumed that they were from Bangladesh (Since they were Muslims from west Bengal). Having said that, things are gradually improving in India and denying it would not be fair. When Dilip Kumar (Actual name Yusuf Khan) started acting in movie he was "Forced" to change his name into a "Hindu name". Today Khans rule a great deal of Indian movie industry.  Secular Indian philosophy has been a fertile ground for religious proselytizers, and Hindus have been the major victim of such activities due to their loose religious affiliation. >>>>>>> As you have pointed out the "Hindu culture" (It is not exactly a religion in traditional sense) is fragmented by it's nature. It only comes together when there is a common enemy (British rulers). Discrimination of Hindus BY Hindus is more common than discrimination by any other groups. From my personal experience, I saw the Hindus from southern India never very comfortable with "Northern people". Because of centuries of discriminatory treatment they received from them. They do not embrace "Hindi language" as shamelessly as a common Bengali Hindu or Muslim would (We Bengalis always prefer foreign people, goods etc). Today there are many Indian states they do not "FEEL" close to Indian union as they should. So there are insurgencies and unrest within Indian union. Christian missionaries take advantage of this situation. They target the very people common Indians looks down to. I heard about a statistics about Pakistan as well. In Pakistan more people converted to Christianity in last 60 years than previous 200 years under British rule. The scholar who described it said, it was the fault of our "Privileged Muslims" who sunned Islamic teaching of treating ALL people with respect and dignity and opted for "Cultural orientation". So Hindus and Muslims who felt oppressed in "Islamic Pakistan" felt more comfortable being a Christian in it than staying Hindus or Muslims. It would be impolite for me as a Muslim to comment about Hindus in India but I bluntly say we Muslims failed to deliver teaching of Islam (Which I feel is beautiful) to most Muslims. Had Muslims practiced Islam properly, we Bengalis would not feel cheated by the Pakistanis. From Pakistani stand point it was a disaster in grand scale. I find it strange that the founding father of Pakistan was not even a practicing Muslim and he wanted to see a secular Pakistan which would provide safety to Muslims. Today the most popular politician in Pakistan is not a religious scholar but a former cricket player and NO ONE would mistake him for a Mullah (To say the least!!). Yeah truth is stranger than fiction! Today most Muslims (Like their Hindu brothers/sisters) feels very comfortable in victim hood. Where they feel "Others" and the whole world is conspiring against them and they are under assault. I do not think it is entirely true in most cases (Only cases like Iraq, Palestine are clear). Sadly Pakistan is obsessed with India and most Indians are afraid of Pakistanis as well. They are the same in most cases. India is a very imperfect democracy (With huge fault lines) but still it has better system than Pakistan or Bangladesh. We Bangladeshis we some cultural advantages though. Most Bangladeshis are peace loving people by nature and we are a small country. So all we need is solid leadership for couple of decade to get to our "Promise of Independence" ( Ekatturer shopner desh). Our common people have good relationship with both India and Pakistan. So we have the potential to play a leadership role in not only improving our country but to contribute greatly in regional Eco-system. So, when Bangladeshi politicians talk about the influence of Indian "Babus" or "Dadas" on Bangladeshi policies, they mean influence of Indian Hindus on Bangladesh; nothing can be further from the truth. >>>>>>>>> You are right to some point. But no one with even a little knowledge of our politics would not deny outside influences in our politics. You can read Indian newspapers few years ago and current news papers to see the difference as well. We live in an interdependent world, so I am not against having friendly relationship with India or any specific country but without wise leaders we stand to lose a lot if they are not careful while dealing with India or other foreign nations. Our current government gave golden opportunity to India for better relationship couple of years ago. But so far Indians are losing it and Indian bureaucracy is Indian's worst enemy. Our people are always ready to sacrifice for good relationship with India. But constant betrayal over the years eroded any credibility India had among common people. So politicians want to score points in this atmosphere. Politicians are unique breed and mostly work the same way all over the world. If you go to west Bengal you will hear similar untrue statement about Bangladesh and Muslims as well. Lastly I would encourage all of you NOT to give up on people of Bangladesh. They are good people and with good leadership they can do miracles. :-)Shalom!!     -----Original Message-----From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:31 amSubject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita   Subimal Chakraborty asked: In what sense are the Hindus fragmented? And how is it impacting the Indian politics? If Hindus were not "fragmented", how could their influence be wider "in the Indian policy making?" With broader and solid unity would they have more "Hindu agenda" pushed forward? Roy has raised a very serious and thought provoking issue. You should be able to figure it out on your own. Anyway, Indian Hindus are fragmented by caste system, ethnicity, language, culture, economic opportunities, etc. Indian Hindus are more ethnically and culturally bound; they are only loosely bound to their religious affiliations. This is because – Hindu religious philosophy itself has boundless diversity, which cannot unite all Hindus. As a result, Indian Hindu-brotherhood cannot even get across their state boundaries, while Islamic brotherhood can transcend across the continental boundaries. Due to such disunity, Hindus have never been a major political force to sway Indian State policies solely towards their own interests. Even in West Bengal, Muslim voting-bloc decides the winners and losers, even though they are only ~20% of the population there. I think - such condition is a blessing in disguise; it is helping India to maintain her secular political system. Of course - where there is good there is bad also. Secular Indian philosophy has been a fertile ground for religious proselytizers, and Hindus have been the major victim of such activities due to their loose religious affiliation. Yes, it is true - if Hindus were strongly bound by religious united, there would have been more Hindu agenda, which would, obviously, go against the interest of other religious minority communities. The case in point is Pakistan, which had ~15% Hindu population in 1947, now ~1%. Therefore, from the religious minority point of view, secular Indian policy is a blessing. In fact, a secular political policy is the foundation of a true democratic system. My main point was to emphasize that Indian policies are influenced by secular interests of Hindu, Muslim, Shikh, Christian, and other communities. So, when Bangladeshi politicians talk about the influence of Indian "Babus" or "Dadas" on Bangladeshi policies, they mean influence of Indian Hindus on Bangladesh; nothing can be further from the truth. They never look back to see when the last time Hindus ruled India. Jiten Roy Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

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