S. Chakraborty said: The quotes were taken from Chandidas, Vivekananda, and Rabindranath. All of them were religious and the quotes imply the existence of God. I do not consider someone religious just because of his/her belief in God. I do not consider myself a religious man at all but I believe in God. Chronologically, God comes before human and religion comes out of human imaginations. I am obviously not on the same page with you. You are mixing up too many unrelated issues; it's now hodgepodge. I want to exit here. Bye. Jiten Roy
--- On Sat, 2/25/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 7:12 PM
Thanks. Mostly accepted. To many, teachigs of Buddha were one step forward. Liberal ideas of Ramakrishna Paramhansa Dev definitely were a revolt against the orthodox Hindu religious system. Think about Brahma sect or religion. The quotes were taken from Chandidas, Vivekananda, and Rabindranath. All of them were religious and the quotes imply the existence of God. Exactly, I agree that many atheist social thinkers or revolutionaries "worshipped" man more. They did not have to get inspiration from any religion. As I have said before, brotherhood among the muslims is not working at all. It did not work in 1971-Pakistan. It did not work during 7-year-long Iran-Iraq war. You can come up with more examples. Any kind of unity that is meant to gear the society on the path of progress should be welcome. Fellow feeling is nothing bad as long as feelings are translated to support of good causes. Personally I will be critical of any persecution of Hindus anywhere in the world. But definitely I will not support the act of demolishing a historic mosque (or temple!) by Hindus. Mostly a typical muslim psyche does not cross this limit. I will not blame a muslim for being pained by the persecution of the Palestinians by the Israelis. Nor would I disapprove condemnation of an act that insults a holy book or holy man. Historically not only muslims, hindus also love to identify themselves as a religious group also. But they do not forget their other identities. They are also Bengalis and they are also Indians. Among the blacks there are billionnaires. They have sent some one to become the president of the country and some one the C-in-C. I am not talking about them. I am talking about those who are spending their lives in vicious circles of poverty-illiteracy-drug-crimes-neglect-shattered family. Let them play victim. But they need real help. Why is the rate of conversion to Islam higher among the blacks? They feel alienated from the mainstream Americans and the Muslim preachers give them hope. Not only immigrants, blacks also rise starting from zero. A typical Bengali or chinese immigrant's struggle for existence and rise is not comaparable to that of a typical black family who is stuck in a poverty trap. Jail, addiction to drug, lethery, etc. are their enemies. Many of them even cannot be hired. This huge potential human wealth is lying unutized. Looks like America does not have enough money to take care of this! Vivekananda traveled India widely and saw and felt the miseries of the Indians. That made him to tailor the Vedanta philosophy to the needs of these unfortunate Indians.
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
Question 1: Religion existed from the beginning of time does not automatically make it a good thing for humanity. All those quotes, you have cited, are good, but they are not words of God. These are the words of the superhuman beings directed to the normal human beings. They would have come anyway, as they did from Rabindra Nath, Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Socratic, etc. Question 2: Victimhood is not the only cause for bad condition of Muslims in India, but it's a very significant one - because it breeds negative rebellious mentality and hampers positive progress. Also, the so called Muslim brotherhood has been very bad for Muslims all over the world; it refrain them from assimilation, no matter where they are. They always think of themselves as different from others. Question 3: Again, victimhood mentality of the US African Americans is not the only reason for their bad social condition, but a significant one. They are still blaming more than 200 years old slavery for all their mishaps in their society, while Chinese or Bangladeshi or Indian laborers are buying houses after a few years of their arrival in the USA. Jiten Roy--- On Sat, 2/25/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 2:11 PM
1. Last question first. Religion has existed since the first day of human civilization. We have seen only reforms and different names. I will say in general in a given geographical area any reform was better than the earlier ones or earlier religious teachings. That's one of the reasons for the new "religion"'s wide acceptability in that area. My point is that there are progressive elements in a religion."Sobar uporey manush sotyo, tahar uprey nai", "jeebey prem korey jei jon, seijon sebichhe eeshwor", or "jethay thakey deener ho'tey deen, seikhaney je choron tomar rajey", and so on. You can quote many more. God is implied in all the three quotations; but it is also implied that "man" is the key element. Yes, I agree with you. Religion has been a major cause of hatred, bestiality, and arrest of human progress from tome to time. But you are not blaming other major forces which include politics and economics. I am not going into the details now. Everybody knows about it. 2. I agree condions of Indian muslims are not good. Are the conditions of Hindus or other religious groups or tribes good? Without going into detailed statistics we can probably agree to the "no" answer. For the muslims definitely madrasa education system is a factor. I have doubt that it is the single most negative factor. India is shining. We marvel at that. After 65 years has India been able to reasonably solve the socio-economic problems of its common masses? Again, the answer should be a big "no". What is to blame for the backwardness of the non-muslims? 3. Do American blacks play victims? Yes. But that is not a full truth. Many people want to show this as a full truth out of the racism that still prevails in their hearts. This is generally true for the Indian muslims also. I guess the Indian muslim political organizations which apparently speak on behalf of their muslim citizens do not do it out of sympathy for them, they do it for politics. Probably they do not want them to be with mainstream Indians. From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
QAR Said: The Indian "Muslim" story is similar. There are advantages for being part of India and at the same time historical discrimination is still there. Like most countries of the world these biases has been passed down from generations to generations. West Bengal is known to be a liberal state of India but the state of Muslims in that state is pretty bad. Not too long ago Muslim students had the change their names (A religion neutral names like Chowdhury or Halder) when applying for jobs or sitting for exams. Currently most Muslim men are so frustrated with the "System" that many of them stopped going to higher education. You are right - the condition of Muslims in India is not good. Their situation is more like the situation of African American community in the USA. Just like US African Americans, Muslims tend to consider themselves as victims also, no matter where they are. They tend to blame every thing on the victimhood. This state of mind is bound to affect morale, self-esteem, and success in life. Vested interest groups take advantage of their state of mind, and use it in their favor. West Bengal is flooded with Madrassas. If you spend so much of your adult life earning an education that is not usable to make a living, you can't expect to be successful in life. Can you? Many Hindus from West Bengal complain about so many Madrassa educated Muslims, who can't do anything in the society, except subversive activities. These are victims of vested interest groups. I tell them, if those peope choose such impoverish lifestyle – what can you do for them? It's like people are opting for meager life-style. It is hard to understand. That's why - I don't like religion at all. Religion has brought us only despair and trouble on earth. That's a fact – no matter what your explanations are in favor of religion. Jiten Roy --- On Fri, 2/24/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, February 24, 2012, 7:01 AM
Want to add my two cents...
There are no countries in this world who "Got it right" when it comes to have a "Perfect system". India enjoys a lot of advantage for being a democratic country and for having a strong press (Which occasionally defends common people!).
Even those members of this forum knows a bit about USA knows it is also far from being perfect. It has a near perfect constitution but implementation of it often were influenced by culture and race relations. So dark skinned African-Americans had to wait hundreds of years to have the right to vote or sit in the same restaurant with white Americans. Women were given right to vote around 1920.
The Indian "Muslim" story is similar. There are advantages for being part of India and at the same time historical discrimination is still there. Like most countries of the world these biases has been passed down from generations to generations. West Bengal is known to be a liberal state of India but the state of Muslims in that state is pretty bad. Not too long ago Muslim students had the change their names (A religion neutral names like Chowdhury or Halder) when applying for jobs or sitting for exams. Currently most Muslim men are so frustrated with the "System" that many of them stopped going to higher education. They go to big cities with some training on craftsmanship (Like Gold smith) and set up their own businesses. Lately many of them were harassed because Mumbai police assumed that they were from Bangladesh (Since they were Muslims from west Bengal). Having said that, things are gradually improving in India and denying it would not be fair. When Dilip Kumar (Actual name Yusuf Khan) started acting in movie he was "Forced" to change his name into a "Hindu name". Today Khans rule a great deal of Indian movie industry.
Secular Indian philosophy has been a fertile ground for religious proselytizers, and Hindus have been the major victim of such activities due to their loose religious affiliation. >>>>>>> As you have pointed out the "Hindu culture" (It is not exactly a religion in traditional sense) is fragmented by it's nature. It only comes together when there is a common enemy (British rulers). Discrimination of Hindus BY Hindus is more common than discrimination by any other groups. From my personal experience, I saw the Hindus from southern India never very comfortable with "Northern people". Because of centuries of discriminatory treatment they received from them. They do not embrace "Hindi language" as shamelessly as a common Bengali Hindu or Muslim would (We Bengalis always prefer foreign people, goods etc). Today there are many Indian states they do not "FEEL" close to Indian union as they should. So there are insurgencies and unrest within Indian union. Christian missionaries take advantage of this situation. They target the very people common Indians looks down to. I heard about a statistics about Pakistan as well. In Pakistan more people converted to Christianity in last 60 years than previous 200 years under British rule. The scholar who described it said, it was the fault of our "Privileged Muslims" who sunned Islamic teaching of treating ALL people with respect and dignity and opted for "Cultural orientation". So Hindus and Muslims who felt oppressed in "Islamic Pakistan" felt more comfortable being a Christian in it than staying Hindus or Muslims. It would be impolite for me as a Muslim to comment about Hindus in India but I bluntly say we Muslims failed to deliver teaching of Islam (Which I feel is beautiful) to most Muslims. Had Muslims practiced Islam properly, we Bengalis would not feel cheated by the Pakistanis. From Pakistani stand point it was a disaster in grand scale. I find it strange that the founding father of Pakistan was not even a practicing Muslim and he wanted to see a secular Pakistan which would provide safety to Muslims. Today the most popular politician in Pakistan is not a religious scholar but a former cricket player and NO ONE would mistake him for a Mullah (To say the least!!). Yeah truth is stranger than fiction! Today most Muslims (Like their Hindu brothers/sisters) feels very comfortable in victim hood. Where they feel "Others" and the whole world is conspiring against them and they are under assault. I do not think it is entirely true in most cases (Only cases like Iraq, Palestine are clear). Sadly Pakistan is obsessed with India and most Indians are afraid of Pakistanis as well. They are the same in most cases. India is a very imperfect democracy (With huge fault lines) but still it has better system than Pakistan or Bangladesh. We Bangladeshis we some cultural advantages though. Most Bangladeshis are peace loving people by nature and we are a small country. So all we need is solid leadership for couple of decade to get to our "Promise of Independence" ( Ekatturer shopner desh). Our common people have good relationship with both India and Pakistan. So we have the potential to play a leadership role in not only improving our country but to contribute greatly in regional Eco-system. So, when Bangladeshi politicians talk about the influence of Indian "Babus" or "Dadas" on Bangladeshi policies, they mean influence of Indian Hindus on Bangladesh; nothing can be further from the truth. >>>>>>>>> You are right to some point. But no one with even a little knowledge of our politics would not deny outside influences in our politics. You can read Indian newspapers few years ago and current news papers to see the difference as well. We live in an interdependent world, so I am not against having friendly relationship with India or any specific country but without wise leaders we stand to lose a lot if they are not careful while dealing with India or other foreign nations. Our current government gave golden opportunity to India for better relationship couple of years ago. But so far Indians are losing it and Indian bureaucracy is Indian's worst enemy. Our people are always ready to sacrifice for good relationship with India. But constant betrayal over the years eroded any credibility India had among common people. So politicians want to score points in this atmosphere. Politicians are unique breed and mostly work the same way all over the world. If you go to west Bengal you will hear similar untrue statement about Bangladesh and Muslims as well. Lastly I would encourage all of you NOT to give up on people of Bangladesh. They are good people and with good leadership they can do miracles. :-) Shalom!! -----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:31 am Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita | Subimal Chakraborty asked: In what sense are the Hindus fragmented? And how is it impacting the Indian politics? If Hindus were not "fragmented", how could their influence be wider "in the Indian policy making?" With broader and solid unity would they have more "Hindu agenda" pushed forward? Roy has raised a very serious and thought provoking issue. You should be able to figure it out on your own. Anyway, Indian Hindus are fragmented by caste system, ethnicity, language, culture, economic opportunities, etc. Indian Hindus are more ethnically and culturally bound; they are only loosely bound to their religious affiliations. This is because – Hindu religious philosophy itself has boundless diversity, which cannot unite all Hindus. As a result, Indian Hindu-brotherhood cannot even get across their state boundaries, while Islamic brotherhood can transcend across the continental boundaries. Due to such disunity, Hindus have never been a major political force to sway Indian State policies solely towards their own interests. Even in West Bengal, Muslim voting-bloc decides the winners and losers, even though they are only ~20% of the population there. I think - such condition is a blessing in disguise; it is helping India to maintain her secular political system. Of course - where there is good there is bad also. Secular Indian philosophy has been a fertile ground for religious proselytizers, and Hindus have been the major victim of such activities due to their loose religious affiliation. Yes, it is true - if Hindus were strongly bound by religious united, there would have been more Hindu agenda, which would, obviously, go against the interest of other religious minority communities. The case in point is Pakistan, which had ~15% Hindu population in 1947, now ~1%. Therefore, from the religious minority point of view, secular Indian policy is a blessing. In fact, a secular political policy is the foundation of a true democratic system. My main point was to emphasize that Indian policies are influenced by secular interests of Hindu, Muslim, Shikh, Christian, and other communities. So, when Bangladeshi politicians talk about the influence of Indian "Babus" or "Dadas" on Bangladeshi policies, they mean influence of Indian Hindus on Bangladesh; nothing can be further from the truth. They never look back to see when the last time Hindus ruled India. Jiten Roy |
|
|
|
