But I do not think criticizing any such figure even in the harshest possible terms, or even offending Him/Her using false statements, should be prosecutable by humans on Earth.
I do NOT support "False statements" by people and laws should NOT protect such idiots who makes false statements. If a defendant can prove it was a "Mistake" that may be forgiven but false statement with INTENT is a criminal offense in YOUR country (The USA). Please check with any lawyer of your choice.
Of course, the divine figure should have the right to sue the offender in a court that probably is located in heaven (although God might choose hell instead, because the offender probably would have no entry permit to heaven even for a court appearance).
>>>>>>>> CUTE argument!!
BUT one can offend a whole community by making false statement. For example, someone saw Mr. Delwar Hossain in the moon few weeks ago and it caused a lot of tangible damages. So the person who started this rumor has to pay for this crime.
Similarly when fanatic Hindus spread a rumor about "Babri mosque" and destroyed the mosque in broad day light (In Delhi, India), it is a criminal offense against Muslim community who used to use the masjid for religious purpose. India lost a historical artifact in the process!!
Anyway, I hope these examples will help you to understand "My logic" and how law works.
>>>>>>>>>> If you have read my previous discussions with me (In Mukto-mona) you would notice that, I am comfortable with hostile atheists. But it is personal matter.
Let us analyze how "Logic" of law works. You have presented another "Cute" logic of yours which may work in Disnyland but may not work in the "Real world".
Let me offer you an example, If you have a 14 year old daughter and one of your neighbor goes around tells every neighbors and your friends that, your daughter sleeps with at least four new men every month (Which is completely false).
Should I expect (As a law-maker) you to be very calm about it or would you expecting to suit the bastard who is spreading false rumor against your precious daughter?
Do understand, to every practicing Muslims our Lord (Allah) and His last messenger Muhammad (PBUH) is no less beloved than our family members. So when we have such "Safe-guards" we'll see less "hate-crimes" and defamations against people.
The reason America works better because it is a country which respects it's laws. Bangladesh (Unfortunately) is a long way from being a "Land of law" where laws are fairly applied. If it did, people would have thought many times BEFORE they attacked places of worship and houses of common citizens of Bangladesh.
Most importantly, as per Islamic teachings, Allah (SWT) is not dependent upon any Muslims to "Protect" His honor. But we have such laws to keep harmony in our communities. If we learn to respect every religion properly, we can live in peace and prosper.
Shalom!
From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Apr 14, 2013 5:51 am
Subject: [mukto-mona] Re: Slander and libel do not apply to divine figures
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Save Bangladesh and its women from the upcoming crisis (Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: [notun_bangladesh] হেফাজতের হুমকির পর ॥ নারী কি বন্দী হবে?)
However we are NOT dealing with just any atheists but atheists who speak against God. Naturally it goes against overwhelming majority population of the globe and they react to it. If atheists are happy with their "Life choices", I have nothing against them.
HOWEVER if they rant against God and be disrespectful to religion and religious people, they should be ready to discuss it.
However generally speaking. One can surely ask question. I can ask a Hindu, why he/she pray to a snake? You can ask me, why do I pray to an unseen God (Since I have not seen Him)? I mean these are very good thought provoking questions.
You can ask a Muslim why men are allowed to marry more than one woman?
However distorting character of religious figures or even political figures is criminal (As per our existing laws). For example, few weeks ago someone made a disrespectful comment about late president Zillur Rahman. So I protested. Since I know about this man enough to speak on his behalf (His family is socially known to my parents for many decades).
There were many comments/distortions about Islam and Islamic history in this forum. I tried my best (Spent many hours) to clarify Islamic point of view with authentic data and links to sources of those information.
Therefore, I am very comfortable talking about ideas and debate about. I do NOT approve personal attacks or hate speech against any religion.
>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately blasphemy laws are misused by politicians to punish political opponents. That is NOT the intention of such laws.
If you analyze history of Islam, you will discover that, people verbally, physically, socially abused and persecuted our last prophet Muhammad (PBUH) when he stayed in Mecca. He never replied to such abuse. Because it was personal.
Once he became a head of state, any such acts became an action against a state as well. As Muslims it became our duty to protect our head of state. Once there was a lady port who wrote poetry about killing our prophet (PBUH). So she was punished.
It is NO different than how any modern country would protect their head of state. When Obama was a lawyer in Chicago inner city, you could have an heated argument with him and make fun of him. But today he is a head of state and if you make any threat against him, you will (At least) end up in jail for it.
For all practical purpose today blasphemy laws are not needed to "Protect" any religion BUT to keep our country stable. When one person make idiotic comments about any religious figures, it can create instability, violence in response. So such laws keep one country stable.
Having said that, like any law it can be misused by autocratic dictatorial leadership. If that happens, you should blame those anti-democratic dictatorial leaders not the law itself.
Shalom!
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2013 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Save Bangladesh and its women from the upcoming crisis (Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: [notun_bangladesh] হেফাজতের হুমকির পর ॥ নারী কি বন্দী হবে?)
That should be the real spirit of a free thinker. I completely agree with you that nasty comments against any thing or anybody is distasteful and should be avoided in a serious discussion. We expect civility from everybody.
__._,_.___
****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration:
Call For Articles:
http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68
http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585
****************************************************
VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/
****************************************************
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
-Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
__,_._,___
Sunday, April 14, 2013
Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Slander and libel do not apply to divine figures
>>>>>>>>> I disagree with parts of your opinions. I welcome questions and critics of religions.
If God were a universal truth, even the non-believer was created by God. Obviously, the non-believer does not realize it. If the believer thinks a non-believer has offended God or His messenger, his/her honorable action would be to pray to God for Him to change the offender's mind (according to the belief, God surely has the power to do that). The believer could have some honest pity for the offender, but should have no business being angry, let alone committing any kind of offences/crimes/atrocities against the non-believing offender.
-----Original Message----- ==================================
Let me try some logic with QR.
I generally do not talk about any of the so-called divine figures. But I do not think criticizing any such figure even in the harshest possible terms, or even offending Him/Her using false statements, should be prosecutable by humans on Earth. Of course, the divine figure should have the right to sue the offender in a court that probably is located in heaven (although God might choose hell instead, because the offender probably would have no entry permit to heaven even for a court appearance).
If God were a universal truth, even the non-believer was created by God. Obviously, the non-believer does not realize it. If the believer thinks a non-believer has offended God or His messenger, his/her honorable action would be to pray to God for Him to change the offender's mind (according to the belief, God surely has the power to do that). The believer could have some honest pity for the offender, but should have no business being angry, let alone committing any kind of offences/crimes/atrocities against the non-believing offender.
Sukhamaya Bain
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
"Slander and libel do not apply to divine figures." Precisely, assuming there is such a thing as 'divine figures'.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually if you (Or anyone) does not have faith in any "Divine figures", there is no reason to talk about it. For example, there are a lot of debates in America about rights of gay people. If someone does not care about gays (positively or negatively) they do not talk about it. If people are AGAINST it, they protest it. If someone supports it, they speak out supporting gays. Similarly, if you are agnostic or atheist, you simply lead your life the way you please. NO problem there. There is a problem though. When Pratibha Basu is heavily critical of Yudhisthira, a holy and highly revered character from the Mahabharata, would you sue her>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry I am not familiar with works of "Pratibha Basu, so I cannot give you an educated answer. My point is that we not only don't need a blasphemy law, we also must not punish them under any other prevailing laws
-----Original Message-----From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>Sent: Fri, Apr 12, 2013 7:11 amSubject: Re: Save Bangladesh and its women from the upcoming crisis (Re: [mukto-mona] Fw: [notun_bangladesh] হেফাজতের হুমকির পর ॥ নারী কি বন্দী হবে?)
"Slander and libel do not apply to divine figures." Precisely, assuming there is such a thing as 'divine figures'.
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
Mr. Rahman
I appreciate your outlook. If I am not wrong, you support critiquing a religion (ref. your first sentence).
There is a problem though. When Pratibha Basu is heavily critical of Yudhisthira, a holy and highly revered character from the Mahabharata, would you sue her? I remember Sunil Ganguly was sued for a comment on the idol of goddess Saraswati. The court did not accept the case. I don't think Sunil's comment made the Hindus less religious although his comment obviously hurt the feelings of the religious Hindus. Such comments are also thought provoking for those who tend to be open minded. The same argument applies to Pratibha Basu's criticism of Dharmaputra Yudhisthira. These sorts of counter currents should be allowed for the progress of the society.
My point is that we not only don't need a blasphemy law, we also must not punish them under any other prevailing laws. This also means that I do not completely agree to what Hasina has said on this issue.
You can defame a person and thereby cause personal loss including financial loss to him in different ways. But you cannot do it to divine things or divine authorities although it can hurt the feelings of the believers. You do not need any law to protect the omnipotent divine power which is supposed to know how to protect itself. Believers should simply ignore or counterargue. Slander and libel do not apply to divine figures.
.
Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional