Dr. Anisur Rahman,
I have no doubt you are a busy writer, and many people like your writings. I will only judge you by what you say in this forum because I have no time to do a research on you.
Based on what I hear from you in this forum, I have developed my impression about you. My impression is - you have not been consistent with your views, and I have trouble also registering my message into your head. So, blames can go both ways.
When government does something wrong to a civilian, apology is warranted from the government, not pardon. Pardon you grant to a prisoner, who has committed heinous crimes for which he/she won't be released ever without pardon. That's not the case of Alan Turing.
Alan Turing may have broken the law at the time, and he was punished with castration. Then, what's the pardon for right now when the new law would not even convict him? You have no explanation, yet - you have rushed into praise of the pardon without thinking, and you cannot even admit it. Instead, you are asking for apology from Dr. Sukhamoy Bain for his most appropriate comments on this issue.
Dr. Sukhamoy Bain explained that - he said Brits are not nearly as civilized as they think. What's the need for apology there? Yet, you are waiting for apology from him. Don't you think you are being hypersensitive about it?
In many other issues, you have expressed contradictory messages, which confused me. You joined in the forum as a progressive person and wanted to express yourself freely here. If you do not take everything so seriously, it will be fine.
Jiten Roy
On Sunday, December 29, 2013 2:42 PM, ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com> wrote:
Dear Members (Subimal Chakrabarty, Sukhamaya Bain and Jiten Roy),
Lots of cross talk, misinterpretation, misunderstanding and, dare I say, blatant bigotry and xenophobia had been going on in this website almost simultaneously. I will try to explain my position clearly and answer some of the knotty points.
1. When QR asked me to give details about the origin of Hajj, particularly whether it originated from pagan rites or not, I answered and he made some quite sensible comments. Jumping on to this thread of discussions, Subimal Chakrabarty and Shah Deeldar made some rude comments without understanding what was going on and these comments are even beyond my comprehension. QR tried to point out that he was talking to me. This statement should not be considered as communal or tribal. I have already replied to QR stating why I consider Hajj as coming from pagan rites and he has every right to give his viewpoint. This is the civilised way of exchanging views.
2. There was another parallel and totally unrelated issue on Alan Turing (Gay mathematician ...), Dr. Bain made an outrageous comment that the whole British people are uncivilised. I quote: Alan Turing did not do any crime, and he did not need any 'pardon'. The British government did a gross injustice to him in 1952 by castrating him. The British government and their royalty are the ones that needed pardoning by him (his departed soul or his family), not the other way around. Obviously, the British have not yet gotten civilized enough to seek an unconditional pardon from him, and are talking the nonsense of pardoning him instead.
His comment is extremely outrageous and despicable. It shows how bigotted this man is!. This statement found a supporting chord in Dr Jiten Roy and others. I tried to explain in a number of emails that: (a) the very first statement 'Alan Turing did not do any crime' is totally wrong. He did break the law that existed at that time (1952) and hence he committed a crime. Without knowing the mechanism of pardon, he started flinging insults based on his bigotry. I even explained to him that a convicted criminal or a murderer cannot be pardoned by the Judges or Law Makers. The pardon can only be done under the Royal prerogative. However, it would not get into his head and I thought it would be total waste of my time to make him understand the laws. But lastly I would say on this issue that it would be decent of him if he withdraws his remark.
3. I had problems communicating with Dr Jiten Roy too. Whenever I said that there was corruption in the present regime, he immediately jumped into conclusion that I am a Jamaati supporter - which is totally stupid and unacceptable. I am a regular contributor to a number of newspapers and I wrote a number articles in Bangladeshi newspapers giving my position on religion, social structure, democracy, nationalism etc and anybody can read them. But he would not read them and stick his head in sand. Only a few days ago, I published one article on 'Is this 1971 reincarnation?'. Within the next couple of days, another article on 'Politics of Violence' will be published. I have been invited by an editor to write an article for publication in their election issue. So I don't need to explain my position to Jiten Roy. I get personal messages and comments from a number of past and present Secretaries (ex-CSP officers), a number of past and present Ambassadors (ex-Foreign Servants), Chairmen of government organisations and so forth. If Jiten Roy does not know my position, that is tough. He should read newspapers.
- Anis Rahman
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 29 December 2013, 14:59
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Mr. QR has now taken a communalist turn. He has now an absurd proposition: Islamic history to a Muslim and a non-Muslim may not be same! He is now playing a trick to have Dr. Anisur Rahman whom I consider to be a free thinker on his side on this issue. I will earnestly request Dr. Rahman to make a comment on this.
Sent from my iPhone
Dear members,
I was talking to member Anisur Rahman (Who probably has a little more knowledge of Islamic history).
Now, we were talking about RELIGIOUS history!!
So it is ONLY natural (And LOGICAL) both (RELIGION and HISTORY) will come up in the conversation. I do understand coming from non-Muslim background, some of you do not understand some of these established facts. It is OK with me and I am only trying to share information about it. I have no intention to convert you here.
So take whatever make sense to you and you are welcome to disagree with the rest.
I do not have unlimited time to walk you through maturity with some of you and I am comfortable with that!!
May peace be unto all of you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 28, 2013 8:43 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Look, any logical argument you would like to make with this QR will only bound to end up like the one that you are having right now. It is obscene and absurd without any limit. This man world knowledge does not go beyond his book and its some outrageous interpretations. He has been serving the forum with these idiotic answers without any critical thinking or analysis. Just simply ignore this man if you can as suggested by Dr. Das. Thank you.
-SD
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss
On Saturday, December 28, 2013 7:34 PM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
Mixture of history and myth make it difficult to filter the real truths. Was Prophet Adam the first Man? If he was, when and where was he born? Was technology advanced enough at that time to build a mosque?Where was Abraham born? In present time Iraq! About 2000 years before Christ was born? Is there any historical evidence that he went to Mecca to reestablish the mosque? What was the time gap between the first construction and the reconstruction?History must not be replaced with faith.
Sent from my iPhoneThank you for sharing.
understand where you are coming from.
Actually a little more context is important to get the whole picture. According to some theologians The Masjid at Mecca was established by prophet Adam (PBUH). Later Abraham and his son Ishmael (PBUT) re-established it. Both were well known for being strict monotheist. Later pagans took over the holy mosque and had some of the original practices (Like tawaf ) within that practice. In fact some of them used to be absolutely NUDE while doing that tawaf as well. Muslim historians noted that part as well.
Here is a little bit on it from an article....
Hajj and its rites were first ordained by Allah in the time of the Prophet lbrahim [Abraham] and he was the one who was entrusted by Allah to build the Kaba - the House of Allah - along with his son Ismail [Ishmael] at Makkah. Allah described the Kaba and its building as follows:"And remember when We showed Ibrahim the site of the [Sacred] House [saying]: Associate not anything [in worship with Me and purify My House for those who circumambulate it [i.e. perform tawaaf] and those who stand up for prayer and those who bow down and make prostration [in prayer etc.]."
[Surah Al-Hajj 22:26]
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) established the original way of worshiping Allah (SWT) as envisioned by his forefather Abraham (PBUH). Jewish theologians considers Abraham as the "Originator" of Judaism (Which preached strict monotheism like Islam).
Therefore, calling hajj "Originated" from pagan origin is inaccurate but it was intended by our spiritual father Abraham to be worshiped to ONE TRUE GOD only.
Therefore, I think re-prasing it would be more accurate. While it is true pagans took over the holy masjid at Mecca but they did not "Originate" the rituals of hajj, rather hajj rituals carries many original instructions of propohet Abraham (PBUH) even today.
Islam originated with the base ideal of monotheism and anyone who feels it's otherwise may miss the foundation of Islam (Thinking Islam ever allowed or accepted any concept about making partners with our Creator).
My two cents.....
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 25, 2013 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
On page 187 of the 'A History of God' by Karen Armstrong, she said, I quote, "In 630 the city of Mecca opened its gates to Mohammad who was able to take it without bloodshed. In 632, shortly before his death, he made what has been called the Farewell Pilgrimage in which he Islamised the old Arabian pagan rites of the hajj and made this pilgrimage, which was so dear to the Arabs, the fifth pillar of the religion."
Remember that there were a large number of pagans in Arabia at that time and accepting pagan rites in Islam was to encourage them to the new religion, Islam. The Jews, however, stuck steadfastly to their religion. Even then quite a few Jewish rites had been assimilated in Islam, when Mohammad went to Medina to escape Qurayshi persecution of Muslims in Mecca.
I hope this will satisfy you.
- Anis Rahman
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 25 December 2013, 10:04
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Why not spend few lines to validate this. Since most theologians do not think about hajj this way. What did Karen say about hajj?
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: qrahman <qrahman@netscape.net>
Sent: Tue, Dec 24, 2013 7:47 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Please look at Karen Armstrong's book on 'A History of God'.
- AR
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