Dear QR,
Here we have bumped into a source of perennial conflict that had dogged Islam ever since. Which one do you call Islamic and which one do you leave outside it, when Islam is avowedly the follow up of Judaism and Christianity?
I hold the view that what Prophet Mohammad did or said explicitly was within Islam, what he left out was outside Islam. When he made the pilgrimage from Medina to Mecca in 632 CE and carried out the circumambulation of Kaaba, that was the beginning of Hajj in Islam. Immediately prior to that, Pagans used to do the same ritual (as Kaaba used to be administered by Pagan leaders at that time) and before that Jews used to carry out that ritual. If you skip over 2000 years of pagan rites (prior to 632 CE) and go back to the Jewish roots originating from the Abraham/Ishmael period, some 2000 years earlier, then that is a different perception. I was saying and probably Karen Armstrong was implying that Prophet Mohammad Islamicised the existing pagan rites of Hajj in 632 CE.
You must admit that practices which were prevalent in Judaism but did not get transcended (or accepted finally) to Islam cannot be called Islamic. For example, Prophet Mohammad while in Mecca (before his migration to Medina in 622 CE) asked his followers to pray two times a day. Only after his migration to Medina, under the influence of Jews, he changed his proclamation to pray five times a day and this became one of the pillars of Islam. When he asked his followers to face Kaaba and not Jerusalem, he had to face the wrath of the Jews in Medina and that precipitated his migration (first Hajj) to Mecca in 632 CE. Praying towards Jerusalem was the practice before changing to Kaaba and that caused a clear cut separation between these two religions.
- Anisur Rahman
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 29 December 2013, 10:37
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Dear members,
I was talking to member Anisur Rahman (Who probably has a little more knowledge of Islamic history).
Now, we were talking about RELIGIOUS history!!
I was talking to member Anisur Rahman (Who probably has a little more knowledge of Islamic history).
Now, we were talking about RELIGIOUS history!!
So it is ONLY natural (And LOGICAL) both (RELIGION and HISTORY) will come up in the conversation. I do understand coming from non-Muslim background, some of you do not understand some of these established facts. It is OK with me and I am only trying to share information about it. I have no intention to convert you here.
So take whatever make sense to you and you are welcome to disagree with the rest.
I do not have unlimited time to walk you through maturity with some of you and I am comfortable with that!!
May peace be unto all of you.
-----Original Message-----
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 28, 2013 8:43 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 28, 2013 8:43 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Look, any logical argument you would like to make with this QR will only bound to end up like the one that you are having right now. It is obscene and absurd without any limit. This man world knowledge does not go beyond his book and its some outrageous interpretations. He has been serving the forum with these idiotic answers without any critical thinking or analysis. Just simply ignore this man if you can as suggested by Dr. Das. Thank you.
-SD
Therefore, I think re-prasing it would be more accurate. While it is true pagans took over the holy masjid at Mecca but they did not "Originate" the rituals of hajj, rather hajj rituals carries many original instructions of propohet Abraham (PBUH) even today.
Islam originated with the base ideal of monotheism and anyone who feels it's otherwise may miss the foundation of Islam (Thinking Islam ever allowed or accepted any concept about making partners with our Creator).
My two cents.....
Shalom!
-SD
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
-Seuss
-Seuss
On Saturday, December 28, 2013 7:34 PM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
Mixture of history and myth make it difficult to filter the real truths. Was Prophet Adam the first Man? If he was, when and where was he born? Was technology advanced enough at that time to build a mosque?
Where was Abraham born? In present time Iraq! About 2000 years before Christ was born? Is there any historical evidence that he went to Mecca to reestablish the mosque? What was the time gap between the first construction and the reconstruction?
History must not be replaced with faith.
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
Thank you for sharing.
understand where you are coming from.
Actually a little more context is important to get the whole picture. According to some theologians The Masjid at Mecca was established by prophet Adam (PBUH). Later Abraham and his son Ishmael (PBUT) re-established it. Both were well known for being strict monotheist. Later pagans took over the holy mosque and had some of the original practices (Like tawaf ) within that practice. In fact some of them used to be absolutely NUDE while doing that tawaf as well. Muslim historians noted that part as well.
Here is a little bit on it from an article....
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) established the original way of worshiping Allah (SWT) as envisioned by his forefather Abraham (PBUH). Jewish theologians considers Abraham as the "Originator" of Judaism (Which preached strict monotheism like Islam).
Therefore, calling hajj "Originated" from pagan origin is inaccurate but it was intended by our spiritual father Abraham to be worshiped to ONE TRUE GOD only.
understand where you are coming from.
Actually a little more context is important to get the whole picture. According to some theologians The Masjid at Mecca was established by prophet Adam (PBUH). Later Abraham and his son Ishmael (PBUT) re-established it. Both were well known for being strict monotheist. Later pagans took over the holy mosque and had some of the original practices (Like tawaf ) within that practice. In fact some of them used to be absolutely NUDE while doing that tawaf as well. Muslim historians noted that part as well.
Here is a little bit on it from an article....
Hajj and its rites were first ordained by Allah in the time of the Prophet lbrahim [Abraham] and he was the one who was entrusted by Allah to build the Kaba - the House of Allah - along with his son Ismail [Ishmael] at Makkah. Allah described the Kaba and its building as follows:
"And remember when We showed Ibrahim the site of the [Sacred] House [saying]: Associate not anything [in worship with Me and purify My House for those who circumambulate it [i.e. perform tawaaf] and those who stand up for prayer and those who bow down and make prostration [in prayer etc.]."
[Surah Al-Hajj 22:26]
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) established the original way of worshiping Allah (SWT) as envisioned by his forefather Abraham (PBUH). Jewish theologians considers Abraham as the "Originator" of Judaism (Which preached strict monotheism like Islam).
Therefore, calling hajj "Originated" from pagan origin is inaccurate but it was intended by our spiritual father Abraham to be worshiped to ONE TRUE GOD only.
Therefore, I think re-prasing it would be more accurate. While it is true pagans took over the holy masjid at Mecca but they did not "Originate" the rituals of hajj, rather hajj rituals carries many original instructions of propohet Abraham (PBUH) even today.
Islam originated with the base ideal of monotheism and anyone who feels it's otherwise may miss the foundation of Islam (Thinking Islam ever allowed or accepted any concept about making partners with our Creator).
My two cents.....
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 25, 2013 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 25 December 2013, 10:04
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 25, 2013 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
On page 187 of the 'A History of God' by Karen Armstrong, she said, I quote, "In 630 the city of Mecca opened its gates to Mohammad who was able to take it without bloodshed. In 632, shortly before his death, he made what has been called the Farewell Pilgrimage in which he Islamised the old Arabian pagan rites of the hajj and made this pilgrimage, which was so dear to the Arabs, the fifth pillar of the religion."
Remember that there were a large number of pagans in Arabia at that time and accepting pagan rites in Islam was to encourage them to the new religion, Islam. The Jews, however, stuck steadfastly to their religion. Even then quite a few Jewish rites had been assimilated in Islam, when Mohammad went to Medina to escape Qurayshi persecution of Muslims in Mecca.
I hope this will satisfy you.
- Anis Rahman
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 25 December 2013, 10:04
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Why not spend few lines to validate this. Since most theologians do not think about hajj this way. What did Karen say about hajj?
Shalom!
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: qrahman <qrahman@netscape.net>
Sent: Tue, Dec 24, 2013 7:47 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 23 December 2013, 10:14
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: qrahman <qrahman@netscape.net>
Sent: Tue, Dec 24, 2013 7:47 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Please look at Karen Armstrong's book on 'A History of God'.
- AR
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 23 December 2013, 10:14
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
For example, both of the Muslim Eids come from pagan tradition. Even Hajj comes from pagan tradition.
>>>>>>>>> How so? Kindly share your knowledge with us.
Shalom!
Shalom!
-----Original Message-----
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
From: Sudhir-Architect <ar_sudhirkumar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 22 December 2013, 15:13
Subject: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Thanks & Regards,
Sudhir Srinivasan
B.Arch, MSc.CPM, Dip.ID, Dip.CAD, Dip.PM, Dip.LD
| Architect |
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 22, 2013 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Quite informative.
Many monotheistic traditions, particularly celebrations, have pagan origins. For example, both of the Muslim Eids come from pagan tradition. Even Hajj comes from pagan tradition. It is of no surprise at all as paganism predates monotheistic religions, these religions borrowed some of the practices from pagan pantheism and passed them on as divine transcendence.
- Anis Rahman
From: Sudhir-Architect <ar_sudhirkumar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 22 December 2013, 15:13
Subject: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Christmas' Pagan Origins
Few people realize that the origins of a form of Christmas was pagan & celebrated in Europe long before anyone there had heard of Jesus Christ.
No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ's birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?
The answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast.
In Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia, honouring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. The festival season was marked by much merrymaking. It is in ancient Rome that the tradition of the Mummers was born. The Mummers were groups of costumed singers and dancers who travelled from house to house entertaining their neighbours. From this, the Christmas tradition of caroling was born.
In northern Europe, many other traditions that we now consider part of Christian worship were begun long before the participants had ever heard of Christ. The pagans of northern Europe celebrated the their own winter solstice, known as Yule. Yule was symbolic of the pagan Sun God, Mithras, being born, and was observed on the shortest day of the year. As the Sun God grew and matured, the days became longer and warmer. It was customary to light a candle to encourage Mithras, and the sun, to reappear next year.
Huge Yule logs were burned in honour of the sun. The word Yule itself means "wheel," the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began as a fertility ritual. Holly berries were thought to be a food of the gods.
The tree is the one symbol that unites almost all the northern European winter solstices. Live evergreen trees were often brought into homes during the harsh winters as a reminder to inhabitants that soon their crops would grow again. Evergreen boughs were sometimes carried as totems of good luck and were often present at weddings, representing fertility. The Druids used the tree as a religious symbol, holding their sacred ceremonies while surrounding and worshipping huge trees.
In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ's birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.
Christmas (Christ-Mass) as we know it today, most historians agree, began in Germany, though Catholics and Lutherans still disagree about which church celebrated it first. The earliest record of an evergreen being decorated in a Christian celebration was in 1521 in the Alsace region of Germany.
Sudhir Srinivasan
B.Arch, MSc.CPM, Dip.ID, Dip.CAD, Dip.PM, Dip.LD
| Architect |
__._,_.___
