History is the SAME for everyone.
However knowledge about context and subtext (Of established history) differ from person to person. That is all has been said. Nothing "Communal".
Shalom!
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, Dec 29, 2013 9:22 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Sent from my iPhone
I was talking to member Anisur Rahman (Who probably has a little more knowledge of Islamic history).
Now, we were talking about RELIGIOUS history!!
So it is ONLY natural (And LOGICAL) both (RELIGION and HISTORY) will come up in the conversation. I do understand coming from non-Muslim background, some of you do not understand some of these established facts. It is OK with me and I am only trying to share information about it. I have no intention to convert you here.
So take whatever make sense to you and you are welcome to disagree with the rest.
I do not have unlimited time to walk you through maturity with some of you and I am comfortable with that!!
May peace be unto all of you.
From: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Dec 28, 2013 8:43 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
-SD
-Seuss
Sent from my iPhone
understand where you are coming from.
Actually a little more context is important to get the whole picture. According to some theologians The Masjid at Mecca was established by prophet Adam (PBUH). Later Abraham and his son Ishmael (PBUT) re-established it. Both were well known for being strict monotheist. Later pagans took over the holy mosque and had some of the original practices (Like tawaf ) within that practice. In fact some of them used to be absolutely NUDE while doing that tawaf as well. Muslim historians noted that part as well.
Here is a little bit on it from an article....
[Surah Al-Hajj 22:26]
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) established the original way of worshiping Allah (SWT) as envisioned by his forefather Abraham (PBUH). Jewish theologians considers Abraham as the "Originator" of Judaism (Which preached strict monotheism like Islam).
Therefore, calling hajj "Originated" from pagan origin is inaccurate but it was intended by our spiritual father Abraham to be worshiped to ONE TRUE GOD only.
Therefore, I think re-prasing it would be more accurate. While it is true pagans took over the holy masjid at Mecca but they did not "Originate" the rituals of hajj, rather hajj rituals carries many original instructions of propohet Abraham (PBUH) even today.
Islam originated with the base ideal of monotheism and anyone who feels it's otherwise may miss the foundation of Islam (Thinking Islam ever allowed or accepted any concept about making partners with our Creator).
My two cents.....
Shalom!
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Dec 25, 2013 10:01 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
From: QR <qrahman@netscape.net>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 25 December 2013, 10:04
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Shalom!
From: ANISUR RAHMAN <anisur.rahman1@btinternet.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: qrahman <qrahman@netscape.net>
Sent: Tue, Dec 24, 2013 7:47 pm
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
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Sunday, December 29, 2013
Re: [mukto-mona] Christmas' Pagan Origins
Islamic history to a Muslim and a non-Muslim may not be same!
>>>>>>>>> Here is a simplified answer.
-----Original Message-----
Mr. QR has now taken a communalist turn. He has now an absurd proposition: Islamic history to a Muslim and a non-Muslim may not be same! He is now playing a trick to have Dr. Anisur Rahman whom I consider to be a free thinker on his side on this issue. I will earnestly request Dr. Rahman to make a comment on this.
Dear members,
-----Original Message-----
Look, any logical argument you would like to make with this QR will only bound to end up like the one that you are having right now. It is obscene and absurd without any limit. This man world knowledge does not go beyond his book and its some outrageous interpretations. He has been serving the forum with these idiotic answers without any critical thinking or analysis. Just simply ignore this man if you can as suggested by Dr. Das. Thank you.
"I speak for the trees, for the trees have no tongues."
On Saturday, December 28, 2013 7:34 PM, Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
Mixture of history and myth make it difficult to filter the real truths. Was Prophet Adam the first Man? If he was, when and where was he born? Was technology advanced enough at that time to build a mosque?
Where was Abraham born? In present time Iraq! About 2000 years before Christ was born? Is there any historical evidence that he went to Mecca to reestablish the mosque? What was the time gap between the first construction and the reconstruction?
History must not be replaced with faith.
Thank you for sharing.
Hajj and its rites were first ordained by Allah in the time of the Prophet lbrahim [Abraham] and he was the one who was entrusted by Allah to build the Kaba - the House of Allah - along with his son Ismail [Ishmael] at Makkah. Allah described the Kaba and its building as follows:
"And remember when We showed Ibrahim the site of the [Sacred] House [saying]: Associate not anything [in worship with Me and purify My House for those who circumambulate it [i.e. perform tawaaf] and those who stand up for prayer and those who bow down and make prostration [in prayer etc.]."
-----Original Message-----
On page 187 of the 'A History of God' by Karen Armstrong, she said, I quote, "In 630 the city of Mecca opened its gates to Mohammad who was able to take it without bloodshed. In 632, shortly before his death, he made what has been called the Farewell Pilgrimage in which he Islamised the old Arabian pagan rites of the hajj and made this pilgrimage, which was so dear to the Arabs, the fifth pillar of the religion."
Remember that there were a large number of pagans in Arabia at that time and accepting pagan rites in Islam was to encourage them to the new religion, Islam. The Jews, however, stuck steadfastly to their religion. Even then quite a few Jewish rites had been assimilated in Islam, when Mohammad went to Medina to escape Qurayshi persecution of Muslims in Mecca.
I hope this will satisfy you.
- Anis Rahman
Why not spend few lines to validate this. Since most theologians do not think about hajj this way. What did Karen say about hajj?
-----Original Message-----
Please look at Karen Armstrong's book on 'A History of God'.
- AR
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