Caste exists, whether one supports it or not. A general and a
corporal do not belong to the same caste. Whatever position a person
belongs to should depend on his competence and merit, not on the
length of the thread on his shoulder or the length of the tuft of hair
on his skull.
On 2/27/12, Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com> wrote:
> Virtue here means competence, not something accumulated in previous
> life. But in any case, Gita is indeed a fiction created under the
> influence of Islam during the Abbasid rule in Baghdad. "Sarbadarmam
> parityajya mamekam saranam braja, Ahang tam Mokshayishami, ma sucha"
> could only be Islamic. Indian culture never demanded complete
> surrender.
>
> In my early days, I read a Gita that had an appendix called 'Gita
> Mahatyam' which included verses that says, "If someone avoids reading
> the appendix, even the memorization of the whole of Gita would bring
> him no punyam" Since then, I consider it a rubbish among many.
>
> On 2/26/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Thanks. A real challenge question for the pseudo atheists and pseudo
>> believers as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
>> To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 'I created the castes depending on their virtue and karma' is as much of
>> a
>> primitive wisdom (read stupidity) as can be found in other religious
>> stories
>> and myths. If virtue and karma were to be the basis, what is this
>> oxymoron
>> of 'Brahmin without the knowledge of scripture'? How did this person ever
>> become a 'Brahmin' before turning into a 'low creature'? Were the
>> 'Chandals'
>> hiding their karma and virtue while living in their original location,
>> and
>> did they all of a sudden acquire the karma and virtue of 'higher caste'
>> by
>> moving to another location?
>>
>> The way I see it, the caste system as it has been practiced by the Hindus
>> over millennia is indefensible by our civilized standards of human
>> intelligence and dignity. Krishna 's proclamation of 'I created the
>> castes
>> depending on their virtue and karma' in the Gita was deeply flawed, as
>> there
>> as no institution to decide on virtue and karma. If virtue and karma were
>> the basis, a newborn would not have had any caste; rather once he/she was
>> at
>> a defined level of age/maturity he/she would have been placed in an
>> appropriate caste, based upon what knowledge and skills he/she had
>> acquired;
>> all these should have been done after providing a fair chance for all
>> kinds
>> of learning to every newborn.
>>
>> Of course, the better sensible people among us in the modern age would
>> say,
>> human babies are not born with any religion, let alone castes and all the
>> other sub-nonsenses.
>>
>> I know, the roots of this stupidity of the caste system have been too
>> deep
>> in the Hindu society, and the remnants of them do push out even among the
>> better educated people. It bothers me a lot to see people who seem to be
>> enlightened try to justify the caste system by quoting the 'guana karma'
>> quote from Krishna in the Gita.
>>
>> Sukhamaya Bain
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
>> To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 7:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Conversion to and from Hinduism
>>
>>
>>
>> Arnold J. Toynbee liked Hinduism most among the religions. Asked why he
>> didn't he get himself convert to it, his answer was that the priests
>> would
>> give him the status of Sudra. Such things happened when caste system
>> became
>> rigid. It was not so always. Even Viswamitra was not born a Brahmin.
>> Gita
>> says, "Chatubarnam maya sristam gunakarma bibhajasa':- 'I created the
>> castes
>> depending on their virtue and karma'. Even when system was rigid, many
>> Chandals had turned into higher caste by simply moving to another
>> location
>> where people did not know them. Any Brahmin without the knowledge of
>> scripture is a low creature, as the scripture says.
>>
>>
>> =============================
>> On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 10:19 PM, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I like the following exchanges between Mr. Subimal Chakrabarty and Dr.
>>> Kamal Das. To fit the topic, I have changed the heading.
>>>
>>>I am also curious, did the immigrant Jews convert to Hinduism? If so, did
>>> they do it out of their respect for Hinduism, or were they forced by the
>>> Hindus?
>>>
>> >From what I see in the history of the subcontinent over the last
>> thousand
>> years, I agree with Mr. Chakrabarty, "Hinduism within its own periphery
>> will
>> rather suppress the lower castes obliging them to convert to another
>> religion. In that sense Hinduism is anti-preaching."
>>>
>>>Talking about conversion to Hinduism, I have wondered, who gets converted
>>> to what caste? Who in the world would be interested in getting converted
>>> to a Shudra or Chandal? The way I see the attitudes of the powerful
>>> Hindus, they would not take the average Muslim or black African for
>>> anything better than a Shudra or Chandal. Of course the Hindu leaders
>>> have
>>> been keen on licking the boots of the Nawabs and the white Europeans.
>>> They
>>> would not dare converting them to anything less than Brahmin or
>>> Kshatitrya. But, why in the world would the average Nawab/British demote
>>> himself from kicking the butts of the Hindus to be equal to the Hindus?
>>>
>>>Talking about civilized and uncivilized, the Hindus had some of the most
>>> uncivilized practices in the world, the remnants of which are still
>>> lingering.
>>>
>>>Finally, let me appeal to all, please try your best to avoid attacking
>>> anyone personally.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Sukhamaya Bain
>>>
>>>=========================
>>>From:subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
>>>To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
>>>Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 1:15 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Taqiya does not mean deceit. It means hiding or
>>> keeping secret one's religion. if some one feels danger if he discloses
>>> his faith
>>>
>>>What happened to the immigrant Jews? Did Hindu preachers convert them to
>>> Hindus? What I know about Buddhists is this: Hindus made Buddha as one
>>> of
>>> their "avatars". Can you please shed light on the parts of Indian
>>> history
>>> when Hindus tried to convert non-Hindus and "untouchables" including
>>> various tribes Hinduism? According to Nihar Ranjan Ray even the chandals
>>> in Bengal were outside the chaturvarna system. This means that they were
>>> not even shudras.I don't understand why you react so sharply when I want
>>> to say that exit from Hinduism is lot easier than getting into it if not
>>> impossible! This attitude of the Hindus made it lot easier for the
>>> Buddhist, Christian, and Muslim preachers to convert the Indians to
>>> their
>>> respective religions.
>>>
>>>==========================
>>>From:Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:14 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Taqiya does not mean deceit. It means hiding or
>>> keeping secret one's religion. if some one feels danger if he discloses
>>> his faith
>>>
>>>"Hinduism" and "Judaism" are "too pure" to accept an outsider. Really???
>>> What happened to the three major waves of Jewish immigrants to India?
>>> What happened to the Buddhists who constituted ninety percent of Bengal
>>> populace before Adisur?
>>>
>>>===========================
>>>On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 10:17 AM, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>Preaching or propagating a religion if you will is marketing of an idea.
>>> As
>>> in modern marketing you have to use all the marketing tools, strategies,
>>> and tactics to be effective. Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam have been
>>> being missionary religions. And we know what missionaries do in general.
>>> Besides the soft spoken preachers, rulers and conquerors also supplement
>>> the efforts of the preachers sometimes with sword. Historically
>>> Christian
>>> and Islamic history of preaching have not been always peaceful
>>> particularly when the rulers and conquerors have taken active roles.
>>> Buddhism although a proselytizing religion was an exception in this
>>> respect. "Hinduism" and "Judaism" are "too pure" to accept an outsider.
>>> Hinduism within its own periphery will rather suppress the lower casts
>>> obliging them to convert to another religion. In that sense Hinduism is
>>> anti-preaching. In modern times, Chaitanyadeb and Vivekananda made
>>> exceptions. While Christian missioneries
>> risked their lives to go to remote araes in India, the custodians of
>> Hinduism kept themselves busy with the task of making religion more and
>> more
>> inaccesible. Service to the distressed humanity and bringing light to the
>> underprivileged and neglected people are the good sides of preaching.
>> There
>> are ugly sides too. Bribing for example is an example.
>>>
>>>****************************************************
>>>"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right
>>> to
>>> say it". -Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190
>>>
>>>Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
>>>.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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