Again the Indian school-masterly attitude and intolerance! Mr. Das thinks that what he knows is essential for every one to know to engage in a debate. The word "Allah" has much much different connotation that what the word means before advent of Islam. It does not matter what the root word of the word "God" is. Relying complwtely on the root word only shows you are also a fundamentalist.
From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
One should remember that the root word 'Godde', a Persian word which
means leader. I am sick and really tired of lecturing to low wits.
Human civilization is a whole lot older than any religion including
paganism. Ask any sociologist and find out.
On 2/26/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You believe in God but you are not religious. That's interesting! What does
> your God do for you? What are its form and nature? Is it a metaphysical
> construct to explain the creation, sustenance, destruction, and recreation
> of this universe?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
> To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 9:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন
> এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>
>
>
>
> I also would cease to bleat here with this bunch. Thanks, Dr. Roy, for
> having been my Shepherd.
>
>
> 2012/2/26 Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
>
>>
>> S. Chakraborty said: The quotes were taken from Chandidas, Vivekananda,
>> and Rabindranath. All of them were religious and the quotes imply the
>> existence of God.
>>I do not consider someone religious just because of his/her belief in God.
>> I do not consider myself a religious man at all but I believe in God.
>> Chronologically, God comes before human and religion comes out of human
>> imaginations. I am obviously not on the same page with you. You are mixing
>> up too many unrelated issues; it's now hodgepodge. I want to exit here.
>> Bye.
>>Jiten Roy --- On Sat, 2/25/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW:
>> ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting
>> poems by Dr Puspita To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com"
>> <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>Date: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 7:12 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks. Mostly accepted. To many, teachigs of Buddha were one step
>>> forward. Liberal ideas of Ramakrishna Paramhansa Dev definitely were a
>>> revolt against the orthodox Hindu religious system. Think about Brahma
>>> sect or religion.
>>>The quotes were taken from Chandidas, Vivekananda, and Rabindranath. All
>>> of them were religious and the quotes imply the existence of God.
>>>Exactly, I agree that many atheist social thinkers or revolutionaries
>>> "worshipped" man more. They did not have to get inspiration from any
>>> religion.
>>>As I have said before, brotherhood among the muslims is not working at
>>> all. It did not work in 1971-Pakistan. It did not work during
>>> 7-year-long Iran-Iraq war. You can come up with more examples. Any kind
>>> of unity that is meant to gear the society on the path of progress should
>>> be welcome. Fellow feeling is nothing bad as long as feelings
>>> are translated to support of good causes. Personally I will be critical
>>> of any persecution of Hindus anywhere in the world. But definitely I will
>>> not support the act of demolishing a historic mosque (or temple!) by
>>> Hindus. Mostly a typical muslim psyche does not cross this limit. I will
>>> not blame a muslim for being pained by the persecution of the
>>> Palestinians by the Israelis. Nor would I disapprove condemnation of an
>>> act that insults a holy book or holy man. Historically not only muslims,
>>> hindus also love to identify themselves as a religious group also. But
>>> they do not forget their other identities. They are
> also Bengalis and they are also Indians.
>>>Among the blacks there are billionnaires. They have sent some one to
>>> become the president of the country and some one the C-in-C. I am not
>>> talking about them. I am talking about those who are spending their lives
>>> in vicious circles of poverty-illiteracy-drug-crimes-neglect-shattered
>>> family. Let them play victim. But they need real help. Why is the rate
>>> of conversion to Islam higher among the blacks? They feel alienated from
>>> the mainstream Americans and the Muslim preachers give them hope.
>>>Not only immigrants, blacks also rise starting from zero. A typical
>>> Bengali or chinese immigrant's struggle for existence and rise is not
>>> comaparable to that of a typical black family who is stuck in a poverty
>>> trap. Jail, addiction to drug, lethery, etc. are their enemies. Many of
>>> them even cannot be hired. This huge potential human wealth is lying
>>> unutized. Looks like America does not have enough money to take care of
>>> this! Vivekananda traveled India widely and saw and felt the miseries of
>>> the Indians. That made him to tailor the Vedanta philosophy to the needs
>>> of these unfortunate Indians.
>>>From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 2:59 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>
>>>
>>>Question 1: Religion existed from the beginning of time does not
>>> automatically make it a good thing for humanity. All those quotes, you
>>> have cited, are good, but they are not words of God. These are the words
>>> of the superhuman beings directed to the normal human beings. They would
>>> have come anyway, as they did from Rabindra Nath, Shakespeare, Tolstoy,
>>> Socratic, etc.
>>>Question 2: Victimhood is not the only cause for bad condition of Muslims
>>> in India, but it's a very significant one - because it breeds negative
>>> rebellious mentality and hampers positive progress. Also, the so called
>>> Muslim brotherhood has been very bad for Muslims all over the world; it
>>> refrain them from assimilation, no matter where they are. They always
>>> think of themselves as different from others.
>>>Question 3: Again, victimhood mentality of the US African Americans is not
>>> the only reason for their bad social condition, but a significant one.
>>> They are still blaming more than 200 years old slavery for all their
>>> mishaps in their society, while Chinese or Bangladeshi or Indian laborers
>>> are buying houses after a few years of their arrival in the USA. Jiten
>>> Roy --- On Sat, 2/25/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>>To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>Date: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 2:11 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>1. Last question first. Religion has existed since the first day of human
>>>> civilization. We have seen only reforms and different names. I will say
>>>> in general in a given geographical area any reform was better than the
>>>> earlier ones or earlier religious teachings. That's one of the reasons
>>>> for the new "religion"'s wide acceptability in that area. My point is
>>>> that there are progressive elements in a religion."Sobar uporey manush
>>>> sotyo, tahar uprey nai", "jeebey prem korey jei jon, seijon sebichhe
>>>> eeshwor", or "jethay thakey deener ho'tey deen, seikhaney je choron
>>>> tomar rajey", and so on. You can quote many more. God is implied in all
>>>> the three quotations; but it is also implied that "man" is the key
>>>> element. Yes, I agree with you. Religion has been a major cause of
>>>> hatred, bestiality, and arrest of human progress from tome to time. But
>>>> you are not blaming other major forces which include politics and
>>>> economics. I am not going into the details now.
> Everybody knows about it.
>>>>2. I agree condions of Indian muslims are not good. Are the conditions of
>>>> Hindus or other religious groups or tribes good? Without going into
>>>> detailed statistics we can probably agree to the "no" answer. For the
>>>> muslims definitely madrasa education system is a factor. I have doubt
>>>> that it is the single most negative factor. India is shining. We marvel
>>>> at that. After 65 years has India been able to reasonably solve the
>>>> socio-economic problems of its common masses? Again, the answer should
>>>> be a big "no". What is to blame for the backwardness of the non-muslims?
>>>>
>>>>3. Do American blacks play victims? Yes. But that is not a full truth.
>>>> Many people want to show this as a full truth out of the racism that
>>>> still prevails in their hearts. This is generally true for the Indian
>>>> muslims also. I guess the Indian muslim political organizations which
>>>> apparently speak on behalf of their muslim citizens do not do it out of
>>>> sympathy for them, they do it for politics. Probably they do not want
>>>> them to be with mainstream Indians.
>>>>From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:18 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>QAR Said: The Indian "Muslim" story is similar. There are advantages for
>>>> being part of India and at the same time historical discrimination is
>>>> still there. Like most countries of the world these biases has been
>>>> passed down from generations to generations. West Bengal is known to be
>>>> a liberal state of India but the state of Muslims in that state is
>>>> pretty bad. Not too long ago Muslim students had the change their names
>>>> (A religion neutral names like Chowdhury or Halder) when applying for
>>>> jobs or sitting for exams. Currently most Muslim men are so frustrated
>>>> with the "System" that many of them stopped going to higher education.
>>>>
>>>>You are right - the condition of Muslims in India is not good. Their
>>>> situation is more like the situation of African American community in
>>>> the USA. Just like US African Americans, Muslims tend to consider
>>>> themselves as victims also, no matter where they are. They tend to
>>>> blame every thing on the victimhood. This state of mind is bound to
>>>> affect morale, self-esteem, and success in life. Vested interest groups
>>>> take advantage of their state of mind, and use it in their favor. West
>>>> Bengal is flooded with Madrassas. If you spend so much of your adult
>>>> life earning an education that is not usable to make a living, you can't
>>>> expect to be successful in life. Can you? Many Hindus from West
>>>> Bengal complain about so many Madrassa educated Muslims, who can't do
>>>> anything in the society, except subversive activities. These are victims
>>>> of vested interest groups. I tell them, if those peope choose such
>>>> impoverish lifestyle – what can you do for them?
> It's like people are opting for meager life-style. It is hard to
> understand. That's why - I don't like religion at all. Religion has brought
> us only despair and trouble on earth. That's a fact – no matter what your
> explanations are in favor of religion.
>>>>
>>>>Jiten Roy --- On Fri, 2/24/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>Date: Friday, February 24, 2012, 7:01 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Want to add my two cents...
>>>>>
>>>>>There are no countries in this world who "Got it right" when it comes to
>>>>> have a "Perfect system". India enjoys a lot of advantage for being a
>>>>> democratic country and for having a strong press (Which occasionally
>>>>> defends common people!).
>>>>>
>>>>>Even those members of this forum knows a bit about USA knows it is also
>>>>> far from being perfect. It has a near perfect constitution but
>>>>> implementation of it often were influenced by culture and race
>>>>> relations. So dark skinned African-Americans had to wait hundreds of
>>>>> years to have the right to vote or sit in the same restaurant with
>>>>> white Americans. Women were given right to vote around 1920.
>>>>>
>>>>>The Indian "Muslim" story is similar. There are advantages for being
>>>>> part of India and at the same time historical discrimination is still
>>>>> there. Like most countries of the world these biases has been passed
>>>>> down from generations to
> generations. West Bengal is known to be a liberal state of India but the
> state of Muslims in that state is pretty bad. Not too long ago Muslim
> students had the change their names (A religion neutral names like Chowdhury
> or Halder) when applying for jobs or sitting for exams. Currently most
> Muslim men are so frustrated with the "System" that many of them stopped
> going to higher education. They go to big cities with some training on
> craftsmanship (Like Gold smith) and set up their own businesses. Lately many
> of them were harassed because Mumbai police assumed that they were from
> Bangladesh (Since they were Muslims from west Bengal). Having said that,
> things are gradually improving in India and denying it would not be fair.
> When Dilip Kumar (Actual name Yusuf Khan) started acting in movie he was
> "Forced" to change his name into a "Hindu name". Today Khans rule a great
> deal of Indian movie industry.
>>>>>
>>>>> Secular Indian philosophy has been a fertile ground for religious
>>>>> proselytizers, and Hindus have been the major victim of such activities
>>>>> due to their loose religious affiliation.
>>>>>>>>>>>> As you have pointed out the "Hindu culture" (It is not exactly a
>>>>>>>>>>>> religion in traditional sense) is fragmented by it's nature. It
>>>>>>>>>>>> only comes together when there is a common enemy (British
>>>>>>>>>>>> rulers). Discrimination of Hindus BY Hindus is more common than
>>>>>>>>>>>> discrimination by any other groups. From my personal experience,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I saw the Hindus from southern India never very comfortable with
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Northern people". Because of centuries of discriminatory
>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment they received from them. They do not embrace "Hindi
>>>>>>>>>>>> language" as shamelessly as a common Bengali Hindu or Muslim
>>>>>>>>>>>> would (We Bengalis always prefer foreign people, goods etc).
>>>>>>>>>>>> Today there are many Indian states they do not "FEEL" close to
>>>>>>>>>>>> Indian union as they should. So there are insurgencies and
>>>>>>>>>>>> unrest within Indian union. Christian missionaries take
>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage of this situation. They target the very people common
>>>>>>>>>>>> Indians looks down to. I heard about a statistics about Pakistan
>>>>>>>>>>>> as well. In Pakistan more
> people converted to Christianity in last 60 years than previous 200 years
> under British rule. The scholar who described it said, it was the fault of
> our "Privileged Muslims" who sunned Islamic teaching of treating ALL people
> with respect and dignity and opted for "Cultural orientation". So Hindus and
> Muslims who felt oppressed in "Islamic Pakistan" felt more comfortable being
> a Christian in it than staying Hindus or Muslims. It would be impolite for
> me as a Muslim to comment about Hindus in India but I bluntly say we Muslims
> failed to deliver teaching of Islam (Which I feel is beautiful) to most
> Muslims. Had Muslims practiced Islam properly, we Bengalis would not feel
> cheated by the Pakistanis. From Pakistani stand point it was a disaster in
> grand scale. I find it strange that the founding father of Pakistan was not
> even a practicing Muslim and he wanted to see a secular Pakistan which would
> provide safety to Muslims. Today the most popular politician
> in Pakistan is not a religious scholar but a former cricket player and NO
> ONE would mistake him for a Mullah (To say the least!!). Yeah truth is
> stranger than fiction! Today most Muslims (Like their Hindu
> brothers/sisters) feels very comfortable in victim hood. Where they feel
> "Others" and the whole world is conspiring against them and they are under
> assault. I do not think it is entirely true in most cases (Only cases like
> Iraq, Palestine are clear). Sadly Pakistan is obsessed with India and most
> Indians are afraid of Pakistanis as well. They are the same in most cases.
> India is a very imperfect democracy (With huge fault lines) but still it has
> better system than Pakistan or Bangladesh. We Bangladeshis we some cultural
> advantages though. Most Bangladeshis are peace loving people by nature and
> we are a small country. So all we need is solid leadership for couple of
> decade to get to our "Promise of Independence" ( Ekatturer shopner desh).
> Our common
> people have good relationship with both India and Pakistan. So we have the
> potential to play a leadership role in not only improving our country but to
> contribute greatly in regional Eco-system. So, when Bangladeshi politicians
> talk about the influence of Indian "Babus" or "Dadas" on Bangladeshi
> policies, they mean influence of Indian Hindus on Bangladesh; nothing can be
> further from the truth. >>>>>>>>> You are right to some point. But no one
> with even a little knowledge of our politics would not deny outside
> influences in our politics. You can read Indian newspapers few years ago and
> current news papers to see the difference as well. We live in an
> interdependent world, so I am not against having friendly relationship with
> India or any specific country but without wise leaders we stand to lose a
> lot if they are not careful while dealing with India or other foreign
> nations. Our current government gave golden opportunity to India for better
> relationship couple of years ago. But so far Indians are losing it and
> Indian bureaucracy is Indian's worst enemy. Our people are always ready to
> sacrifice for good relationship with India. But constant betrayal over the
> years eroded any credibility India had among common people. So politicians
> want to score points in this atmosphere. Politicians are unique breed and
> mostly work the same way all over the world. If you go to west Bengal you
> will hear similar untrue statement about Bangladesh and Muslims as well.
> Lastly I would encourage all of you NOT to give up on people of Bangladesh.
> They are good people and with good leadership they can do miracles. :-)
> Shalom!!
>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To:
>>>>> mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:31 am
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>>>
>>>>>Subimal Chakraborty asked: In what sense are the Hindus fragmented? And
>>>>> how is it impacting the Indian politics? If Hindus were not
>>>>> "fragmented", how could their influence be wider "in the Indian policy
>>>>> making?" With broader and solid unity would they have more "Hindu
>>>>> agenda" pushed forward? Roy has raised a very serious and thought
>>>>> provoking issue.
>>>>>You should be able to figure it out on your own. Anyway, Indian Hindus
>>>>> are fragmented by caste system, ethnicity, language, culture, economic
>>>>> opportunities, etc. Indian Hindus are more ethnically and culturally
>>>>> bound; they are only loosely bound to their religious affiliations.
>>>>> This is because – Hindu religious philosophy itself has boundless
>>>>> diversity, which cannot unite all Hindus. As a result, Indian
>>>>> Hindu-brotherhood cannot even get across their state boundaries, while
>>>>> Islamic brotherhood can transcend across the continental boundaries.
>>>>>Due to such disunity, Hindus have never been a major political force to
>>>>> sway Indian State policies solely towards their own interests. Even in
>>>>> West Bengal, Muslim voting-bloc decides the winners and losers, even
>>>>> though they are only ~20% of the population there. I think - such
>>>>> condition is a blessing in disguise; it is helping India to
>>>>> maintain her secular political system.
>>>>>Of course - where there is good there is bad also. Secular Indian
>>>>> philosophy has been a fertile ground for religious proselytizers, and
>>>>> Hindus have been the major victim of such activities due to their loose
>>>>> religious affiliation. Yes, it is true - if Hindus were strongly bound
>>>>> by religious united, there would have been more Hindu agenda, which
>>>>> would, obviously, go against the interest of other religious minority
>>>>> communities. The case in point is Pakistan, which had ~15% Hindu
>>>>> population in 1947, now ~1%. Therefore, from the religious minority
>>>>> point of view, secular Indian policy is a blessing. In fact, a secular
>>>>> political policy is the foundation of a true democratic system.
>>>>>My main point was to emphasize that Indian policies are influenced by
>>>>> secular interests of Hindu, Muslim, Shikh, Christian, and other
>>>>> communities. So, when Bangladeshi politicians talk about the influence
>>>>> of Indian "Babus" or "Dadas" on Bangladeshi policies, they mean
>>>>> influence of Indian Hindus on Bangladesh; nothing can be further from
>>>>> the truth. They never look back to see when the last time Hindus ruled
>>>>> India.
>>>>>Jiten Roy
>>>>>
>>>>>>Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
>>>>>>.
>
means leader. I am sick and really tired of lecturing to low wits.
Human civilization is a whole lot older than any religion including
paganism. Ask any sociologist and find out.
On 2/26/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You believe in God but you are not religious. That's interesting! What does
> your God do for you? What are its form and nature? Is it a metaphysical
> construct to explain the creation, sustenance, destruction, and recreation
> of this universe?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
> To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 9:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন
> এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>
>
>
>
> I also would cease to bleat here with this bunch. Thanks, Dr. Roy, for
> having been my Shepherd.
>
>
> 2012/2/26 Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
>
>>
>> S. Chakraborty said: The quotes were taken from Chandidas, Vivekananda,
>> and Rabindranath. All of them were religious and the quotes imply the
>> existence of God.
>>I do not consider someone religious just because of his/her belief in God.
>> I do not consider myself a religious man at all but I believe in God.
>> Chronologically, God comes before human and religion comes out of human
>> imaginations. I am obviously not on the same page with you. You are mixing
>> up too many unrelated issues; it's now hodgepodge. I want to exit here.
>> Bye.
>>Jiten Roy --- On Sat, 2/25/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW:
>> ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting
>> poems by Dr Puspita To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com"
>> <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>Date: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 7:12 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks. Mostly accepted. To many, teachigs of Buddha were one step
>>> forward. Liberal ideas of Ramakrishna Paramhansa Dev definitely were a
>>> revolt against the orthodox Hindu religious system. Think about Brahma
>>> sect or religion.
>>>The quotes were taken from Chandidas, Vivekananda, and Rabindranath. All
>>> of them were religious and the quotes imply the existence of God.
>>>Exactly, I agree that many atheist social thinkers or revolutionaries
>>> "worshipped" man more. They did not have to get inspiration from any
>>> religion.
>>>As I have said before, brotherhood among the muslims is not working at
>>> all. It did not work in 1971-Pakistan. It did not work during
>>> 7-year-long Iran-Iraq war. You can come up with more examples. Any kind
>>> of unity that is meant to gear the society on the path of progress should
>>> be welcome. Fellow feeling is nothing bad as long as feelings
>>> are translated to support of good causes. Personally I will be critical
>>> of any persecution of Hindus anywhere in the world. But definitely I will
>>> not support the act of demolishing a historic mosque (or temple!) by
>>> Hindus. Mostly a typical muslim psyche does not cross this limit. I will
>>> not blame a muslim for being pained by the persecution of the
>>> Palestinians by the Israelis. Nor would I disapprove condemnation of an
>>> act that insults a holy book or holy man. Historically not only muslims,
>>> hindus also love to identify themselves as a religious group also. But
>>> they do not forget their other identities. They are
> also Bengalis and they are also Indians.
>>>Among the blacks there are billionnaires. They have sent some one to
>>> become the president of the country and some one the C-in-C. I am not
>>> talking about them. I am talking about those who are spending their lives
>>> in vicious circles of poverty-illiteracy-drug-crimes-neglect-shattered
>>> family. Let them play victim. But they need real help. Why is the rate
>>> of conversion to Islam higher among the blacks? They feel alienated from
>>> the mainstream Americans and the Muslim preachers give them hope.
>>>Not only immigrants, blacks also rise starting from zero. A typical
>>> Bengali or chinese immigrant's struggle for existence and rise is not
>>> comaparable to that of a typical black family who is stuck in a poverty
>>> trap. Jail, addiction to drug, lethery, etc. are their enemies. Many of
>>> them even cannot be hired. This huge potential human wealth is lying
>>> unutized. Looks like America does not have enough money to take care of
>>> this! Vivekananda traveled India widely and saw and felt the miseries of
>>> the Indians. That made him to tailor the Vedanta philosophy to the needs
>>> of these unfortunate Indians.
>>>From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 2:59 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>
>>>
>>>Question 1: Religion existed from the beginning of time does not
>>> automatically make it a good thing for humanity. All those quotes, you
>>> have cited, are good, but they are not words of God. These are the words
>>> of the superhuman beings directed to the normal human beings. They would
>>> have come anyway, as they did from Rabindra Nath, Shakespeare, Tolstoy,
>>> Socratic, etc.
>>>Question 2: Victimhood is not the only cause for bad condition of Muslims
>>> in India, but it's a very significant one - because it breeds negative
>>> rebellious mentality and hampers positive progress. Also, the so called
>>> Muslim brotherhood has been very bad for Muslims all over the world; it
>>> refrain them from assimilation, no matter where they are. They always
>>> think of themselves as different from others.
>>>Question 3: Again, victimhood mentality of the US African Americans is not
>>> the only reason for their bad social condition, but a significant one.
>>> They are still blaming more than 200 years old slavery for all their
>>> mishaps in their society, while Chinese or Bangladeshi or Indian laborers
>>> are buying houses after a few years of their arrival in the USA. Jiten
>>> Roy --- On Sat, 2/25/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>>To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>Date: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 2:11 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>1. Last question first. Religion has existed since the first day of human
>>>> civilization. We have seen only reforms and different names. I will say
>>>> in general in a given geographical area any reform was better than the
>>>> earlier ones or earlier religious teachings. That's one of the reasons
>>>> for the new "religion"'s wide acceptability in that area. My point is
>>>> that there are progressive elements in a religion."Sobar uporey manush
>>>> sotyo, tahar uprey nai", "jeebey prem korey jei jon, seijon sebichhe
>>>> eeshwor", or "jethay thakey deener ho'tey deen, seikhaney je choron
>>>> tomar rajey", and so on. You can quote many more. God is implied in all
>>>> the three quotations; but it is also implied that "man" is the key
>>>> element. Yes, I agree with you. Religion has been a major cause of
>>>> hatred, bestiality, and arrest of human progress from tome to time. But
>>>> you are not blaming other major forces which include politics and
>>>> economics. I am not going into the details now.
> Everybody knows about it.
>>>>2. I agree condions of Indian muslims are not good. Are the conditions of
>>>> Hindus or other religious groups or tribes good? Without going into
>>>> detailed statistics we can probably agree to the "no" answer. For the
>>>> muslims definitely madrasa education system is a factor. I have doubt
>>>> that it is the single most negative factor. India is shining. We marvel
>>>> at that. After 65 years has India been able to reasonably solve the
>>>> socio-economic problems of its common masses? Again, the answer should
>>>> be a big "no". What is to blame for the backwardness of the non-muslims?
>>>>
>>>>3. Do American blacks play victims? Yes. But that is not a full truth.
>>>> Many people want to show this as a full truth out of the racism that
>>>> still prevails in their hearts. This is generally true for the Indian
>>>> muslims also. I guess the Indian muslim political organizations which
>>>> apparently speak on behalf of their muslim citizens do not do it out of
>>>> sympathy for them, they do it for politics. Probably they do not want
>>>> them to be with mainstream Indians.
>>>>From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:18 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>QAR Said: The Indian "Muslim" story is similar. There are advantages for
>>>> being part of India and at the same time historical discrimination is
>>>> still there. Like most countries of the world these biases has been
>>>> passed down from generations to generations. West Bengal is known to be
>>>> a liberal state of India but the state of Muslims in that state is
>>>> pretty bad. Not too long ago Muslim students had the change their names
>>>> (A religion neutral names like Chowdhury or Halder) when applying for
>>>> jobs or sitting for exams. Currently most Muslim men are so frustrated
>>>> with the "System" that many of them stopped going to higher education.
>>>>
>>>>You are right - the condition of Muslims in India is not good. Their
>>>> situation is more like the situation of African American community in
>>>> the USA. Just like US African Americans, Muslims tend to consider
>>>> themselves as victims also, no matter where they are. They tend to
>>>> blame every thing on the victimhood. This state of mind is bound to
>>>> affect morale, self-esteem, and success in life. Vested interest groups
>>>> take advantage of their state of mind, and use it in their favor. West
>>>> Bengal is flooded with Madrassas. If you spend so much of your adult
>>>> life earning an education that is not usable to make a living, you can't
>>>> expect to be successful in life. Can you? Many Hindus from West
>>>> Bengal complain about so many Madrassa educated Muslims, who can't do
>>>> anything in the society, except subversive activities. These are victims
>>>> of vested interest groups. I tell them, if those peope choose such
>>>> impoverish lifestyle – what can you do for them?
> It's like people are opting for meager life-style. It is hard to
> understand. That's why - I don't like religion at all. Religion has brought
> us only despair and trouble on earth. That's a fact – no matter what your
> explanations are in favor of religion.
>>>>
>>>>Jiten Roy --- On Fri, 2/24/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>Date: Friday, February 24, 2012, 7:01 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Want to add my two cents...
>>>>>
>>>>>There are no countries in this world who "Got it right" when it comes to
>>>>> have a "Perfect system". India enjoys a lot of advantage for being a
>>>>> democratic country and for having a strong press (Which occasionally
>>>>> defends common people!).
>>>>>
>>>>>Even those members of this forum knows a bit about USA knows it is also
>>>>> far from being perfect. It has a near perfect constitution but
>>>>> implementation of it often were influenced by culture and race
>>>>> relations. So dark skinned African-Americans had to wait hundreds of
>>>>> years to have the right to vote or sit in the same restaurant with
>>>>> white Americans. Women were given right to vote around 1920.
>>>>>
>>>>>The Indian "Muslim" story is similar. There are advantages for being
>>>>> part of India and at the same time historical discrimination is still
>>>>> there. Like most countries of the world these biases has been passed
>>>>> down from generations to
> generations. West Bengal is known to be a liberal state of India but the
> state of Muslims in that state is pretty bad. Not too long ago Muslim
> students had the change their names (A religion neutral names like Chowdhury
> or Halder) when applying for jobs or sitting for exams. Currently most
> Muslim men are so frustrated with the "System" that many of them stopped
> going to higher education. They go to big cities with some training on
> craftsmanship (Like Gold smith) and set up their own businesses. Lately many
> of them were harassed because Mumbai police assumed that they were from
> Bangladesh (Since they were Muslims from west Bengal). Having said that,
> things are gradually improving in India and denying it would not be fair.
> When Dilip Kumar (Actual name Yusuf Khan) started acting in movie he was
> "Forced" to change his name into a "Hindu name". Today Khans rule a great
> deal of Indian movie industry.
>>>>>
>>>>> Secular Indian philosophy has been a fertile ground for religious
>>>>> proselytizers, and Hindus have been the major victim of such activities
>>>>> due to their loose religious affiliation.
>>>>>>>>>>>> As you have pointed out the "Hindu culture" (It is not exactly a
>>>>>>>>>>>> religion in traditional sense) is fragmented by it's nature. It
>>>>>>>>>>>> only comes together when there is a common enemy (British
>>>>>>>>>>>> rulers). Discrimination of Hindus BY Hindus is more common than
>>>>>>>>>>>> discrimination by any other groups. From my personal experience,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I saw the Hindus from southern India never very comfortable with
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Northern people". Because of centuries of discriminatory
>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment they received from them. They do not embrace "Hindi
>>>>>>>>>>>> language" as shamelessly as a common Bengali Hindu or Muslim
>>>>>>>>>>>> would (We Bengalis always prefer foreign people, goods etc).
>>>>>>>>>>>> Today there are many Indian states they do not "FEEL" close to
>>>>>>>>>>>> Indian union as they should. So there are insurgencies and
>>>>>>>>>>>> unrest within Indian union. Christian missionaries take
>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage of this situation. They target the very people common
>>>>>>>>>>>> Indians looks down to. I heard about a statistics about Pakistan
>>>>>>>>>>>> as well. In Pakistan more
> people converted to Christianity in last 60 years than previous 200 years
> under British rule. The scholar who described it said, it was the fault of
> our "Privileged Muslims" who sunned Islamic teaching of treating ALL people
> with respect and dignity and opted for "Cultural orientation". So Hindus and
> Muslims who felt oppressed in "Islamic Pakistan" felt more comfortable being
> a Christian in it than staying Hindus or Muslims. It would be impolite for
> me as a Muslim to comment about Hindus in India but I bluntly say we Muslims
> failed to deliver teaching of Islam (Which I feel is beautiful) to most
> Muslims. Had Muslims practiced Islam properly, we Bengalis would not feel
> cheated by the Pakistanis. From Pakistani stand point it was a disaster in
> grand scale. I find it strange that the founding father of Pakistan was not
> even a practicing Muslim and he wanted to see a secular Pakistan which would
> provide safety to Muslims. Today the most popular politician
> in Pakistan is not a religious scholar but a former cricket player and NO
> ONE would mistake him for a Mullah (To say the least!!). Yeah truth is
> stranger than fiction! Today most Muslims (Like their Hindu
> brothers/sisters) feels very comfortable in victim hood. Where they feel
> "Others" and the whole world is conspiring against them and they are under
> assault. I do not think it is entirely true in most cases (Only cases like
> Iraq, Palestine are clear). Sadly Pakistan is obsessed with India and most
> Indians are afraid of Pakistanis as well. They are the same in most cases.
> India is a very imperfect democracy (With huge fault lines) but still it has
> better system than Pakistan or Bangladesh. We Bangladeshis we some cultural
> advantages though. Most Bangladeshis are peace loving people by nature and
> we are a small country. So all we need is solid leadership for couple of
> decade to get to our "Promise of Independence" ( Ekatturer shopner desh).
> Our common
> people have good relationship with both India and Pakistan. So we have the
> potential to play a leadership role in not only improving our country but to
> contribute greatly in regional Eco-system. So, when Bangladeshi politicians
> talk about the influence of Indian "Babus" or "Dadas" on Bangladeshi
> policies, they mean influence of Indian Hindus on Bangladesh; nothing can be
> further from the truth. >>>>>>>>> You are right to some point. But no one
> with even a little knowledge of our politics would not deny outside
> influences in our politics. You can read Indian newspapers few years ago and
> current news papers to see the difference as well. We live in an
> interdependent world, so I am not against having friendly relationship with
> India or any specific country but without wise leaders we stand to lose a
> lot if they are not careful while dealing with India or other foreign
> nations. Our current government gave golden opportunity to India for better
> relationship couple of years ago. But so far Indians are losing it and
> Indian bureaucracy is Indian's worst enemy. Our people are always ready to
> sacrifice for good relationship with India. But constant betrayal over the
> years eroded any credibility India had among common people. So politicians
> want to score points in this atmosphere. Politicians are unique breed and
> mostly work the same way all over the world. If you go to west Bengal you
> will hear similar untrue statement about Bangladesh and Muslims as well.
> Lastly I would encourage all of you NOT to give up on people of Bangladesh.
> They are good people and with good leadership they can do miracles. :-)
> Shalom!!
>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To:
>>>>> mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:31 am
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>>>
>>>>>Subimal Chakraborty asked: In what sense are the Hindus fragmented? And
>>>>> how is it impacting the Indian politics? If Hindus were not
>>>>> "fragmented", how could their influence be wider "in the Indian policy
>>>>> making?" With broader and solid unity would they have more "Hindu
>>>>> agenda" pushed forward? Roy has raised a very serious and thought
>>>>> provoking issue.
>>>>>You should be able to figure it out on your own. Anyway, Indian Hindus
>>>>> are fragmented by caste system, ethnicity, language, culture, economic
>>>>> opportunities, etc. Indian Hindus are more ethnically and culturally
>>>>> bound; they are only loosely bound to their religious affiliations.
>>>>> This is because – Hindu religious philosophy itself has boundless
>>>>> diversity, which cannot unite all Hindus. As a result, Indian
>>>>> Hindu-brotherhood cannot even get across their state boundaries, while
>>>>> Islamic brotherhood can transcend across the continental boundaries.
>>>>>Due to such disunity, Hindus have never been a major political force to
>>>>> sway Indian State policies solely towards their own interests. Even in
>>>>> West Bengal, Muslim voting-bloc decides the winners and losers, even
>>>>> though they are only ~20% of the population there. I think - such
>>>>> condition is a blessing in disguise; it is helping India to
>>>>> maintain her secular political system.
>>>>>Of course - where there is good there is bad also. Secular Indian
>>>>> philosophy has been a fertile ground for religious proselytizers, and
>>>>> Hindus have been the major victim of such activities due to their loose
>>>>> religious affiliation. Yes, it is true - if Hindus were strongly bound
>>>>> by religious united, there would have been more Hindu agenda, which
>>>>> would, obviously, go against the interest of other religious minority
>>>>> communities. The case in point is Pakistan, which had ~15% Hindu
>>>>> population in 1947, now ~1%. Therefore, from the religious minority
>>>>> point of view, secular Indian policy is a blessing. In fact, a secular
>>>>> political policy is the foundation of a true democratic system.
>>>>>My main point was to emphasize that Indian policies are influenced by
>>>>> secular interests of Hindu, Muslim, Shikh, Christian, and other
>>>>> communities. So, when Bangladeshi politicians talk about the influence
>>>>> of Indian "Babus" or "Dadas" on Bangladeshi policies, they mean
>>>>> influence of Indian Hindus on Bangladesh; nothing can be further from
>>>>> the truth. They never look back to see when the last time Hindus ruled
>>>>> India.
>>>>>Jiten Roy
>>>>>
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>>>>>>.
>
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