One should remember that the root word 'Godde', a Persian word which
means leader. I am sick and really tired of lecturing to low wits.
Human civilization is a whole lot older than any religion including
paganism. Ask any sociologist and find out.
On 2/26/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You believe in God but you are not religious. That's interesting! What does
> your God do for you? What are its form and nature? Is it a metaphysical
> construct to explain the creation, sustenance, destruction, and recreation
> of this universe?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kamal Das <kamalctgu@gmail.com>
> To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 9:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন
> এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>
>
>
>
> I also would cease to bleat here with this bunch. Thanks, Dr. Roy, for
> having been my Shepherd.
>
>
> 2012/2/26 Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
>
>>
>> S. Chakraborty said: The quotes were taken from Chandidas, Vivekananda,
>> and Rabindranath. All of them were religious and the quotes imply the
>> existence of God.
>>I do not consider someone religious just because of his/her belief in God.
>> I do not consider myself a religious man at all but I believe in God.
>> Chronologically, God comes before human and religion comes out of human
>> imaginations. I am obviously not on the same page with you. You are mixing
>> up too many unrelated issues; it's now hodgepodge. I want to exit here.
>> Bye.
>>Jiten Roy --- On Sat, 2/25/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW:
>> ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না, এমন এক বিচার...!interesting
>> poems by Dr Puspita To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com"
>> <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>Date: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 7:12 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>Thanks. Mostly accepted. To many, teachigs of Buddha were one step
>>> forward. Liberal ideas of Ramakrishna Paramhansa Dev definitely were a
>>> revolt against the orthodox Hindu religious system. Think about Brahma
>>> sect or religion.
>>>The quotes were taken from Chandidas, Vivekananda, and Rabindranath. All
>>> of them were religious and the quotes imply the existence of God.
>>>Exactly, I agree that many atheist social thinkers or revolutionaries
>>> "worshipped" man more. They did not have to get inspiration from any
>>> religion.
>>>As I have said before, brotherhood among the muslims is not working at
>>> all. It did not work in 1971-Pakistan. It did not work during
>>> 7-year-long Iran-Iraq war. You can come up with more examples. Any kind
>>> of unity that is meant to gear the society on the path of progress should
>>> be welcome. Fellow feeling is nothing bad as long as feelings
>>> are translated to support of good causes. Personally I will be critical
>>> of any persecution of Hindus anywhere in the world. But definitely I will
>>> not support the act of demolishing a historic mosque (or temple!) by
>>> Hindus. Mostly a typical muslim psyche does not cross this limit. I will
>>> not blame a muslim for being pained by the persecution of the
>>> Palestinians by the Israelis. Nor would I disapprove condemnation of an
>>> act that insults a holy book or holy man. Historically not only muslims,
>>> hindus also love to identify themselves as a religious group also. But
>>> they do not forget their other identities. They are
> also Bengalis and they are also Indians.
>>>Among the blacks there are billionnaires. They have sent some one to
>>> become the president of the country and some one the C-in-C. I am not
>>> talking about them. I am talking about those who are spending their lives
>>> in vicious circles of poverty-illiteracy-drug-crimes-neglect-shattered
>>> family. Let them play victim. But they need real help. Why is the rate
>>> of conversion to Islam higher among the blacks? They feel alienated from
>>> the mainstream Americans and the Muslim preachers give them hope.
>>>Not only immigrants, blacks also rise starting from zero. A typical
>>> Bengali or chinese immigrant's struggle for existence and rise is not
>>> comaparable to that of a typical black family who is stuck in a poverty
>>> trap. Jail, addiction to drug, lethery, etc. are their enemies. Many of
>>> them even cannot be hired. This huge potential human wealth is lying
>>> unutized. Looks like America does not have enough money to take care of
>>> this! Vivekananda traveled India widely and saw and felt the miseries of
>>> the Indians. That made him to tailor the Vedanta philosophy to the needs
>>> of these unfortunate Indians.
>>>From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 2:59 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>
>>>
>>>Question 1: Religion existed from the beginning of time does not
>>> automatically make it a good thing for humanity. All those quotes, you
>>> have cited, are good, but they are not words of God. These are the words
>>> of the superhuman beings directed to the normal human beings. They would
>>> have come anyway, as they did from Rabindra Nath, Shakespeare, Tolstoy,
>>> Socratic, etc.
>>>Question 2: Victimhood is not the only cause for bad condition of Muslims
>>> in India, but it's a very significant one - because it breeds negative
>>> rebellious mentality and hampers positive progress. Also, the so called
>>> Muslim brotherhood has been very bad for Muslims all over the world; it
>>> refrain them from assimilation, no matter where they are. They always
>>> think of themselves as different from others.
>>>Question 3: Again, victimhood mentality of the US African Americans is not
>>> the only reason for their bad social condition, but a significant one.
>>> They are still blaming more than 200 years old slavery for all their
>>> mishaps in their society, while Chinese or Bangladeshi or Indian laborers
>>> are buying houses after a few years of their arrival in the USA. Jiten
>>> Roy --- On Sat, 2/25/12, subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>From: subimal chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>>To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
>>>>Date: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 2:11 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>1. Last question first. Religion has existed since the first day of human
>>>> civilization. We have seen only reforms and different names. I will say
>>>> in general in a given geographical area any reform was better than the
>>>> earlier ones or earlier religious teachings. That's one of the reasons
>>>> for the new "religion"'s wide acceptability in that area. My point is
>>>> that there are progressive elements in a religion."Sobar uporey manush
>>>> sotyo, tahar uprey nai", "jeebey prem korey jei jon, seijon sebichhe
>>>> eeshwor", or "jethay thakey deener ho'tey deen, seikhaney je choron
>>>> tomar rajey", and so on. You can quote many more. God is implied in all
>>>> the three quotations; but it is also implied that "man" is the key
>>>> element. Yes, I agree with you. Religion has been a major cause of
>>>> hatred, bestiality, and arrest of human progress from tome to time. But
>>>> you are not blaming other major forces which include politics and
>>>> economics. I am not going into the details now.
> Everybody knows about it.
>>>>2. I agree condions of Indian muslims are not good. Are the conditions of
>>>> Hindus or other religious groups or tribes good? Without going into
>>>> detailed statistics we can probably agree to the "no" answer. For the
>>>> muslims definitely madrasa education system is a factor. I have doubt
>>>> that it is the single most negative factor. India is shining. We marvel
>>>> at that. After 65 years has India been able to reasonably solve the
>>>> socio-economic problems of its common masses? Again, the answer should
>>>> be a big "no". What is to blame for the backwardness of the non-muslims?
>>>>
>>>>3. Do American blacks play victims? Yes. But that is not a full truth.
>>>> Many people want to show this as a full truth out of the racism that
>>>> still prevails in their hearts. This is generally true for the Indian
>>>> muslims also. I guess the Indian muslim political organizations which
>>>> apparently speak on behalf of their muslim citizens do not do it out of
>>>> sympathy for them, they do it for politics. Probably they do not want
>>>> them to be with mainstream Indians.
>>>>From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:18 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>QAR Said: The Indian "Muslim" story is similar. There are advantages for
>>>> being part of India and at the same time historical discrimination is
>>>> still there. Like most countries of the world these biases has been
>>>> passed down from generations to generations. West Bengal is known to be
>>>> a liberal state of India but the state of Muslims in that state is
>>>> pretty bad. Not too long ago Muslim students had the change their names
>>>> (A religion neutral names like Chowdhury or Halder) when applying for
>>>> jobs or sitting for exams. Currently most Muslim men are so frustrated
>>>> with the "System" that many of them stopped going to higher education.
>>>>
>>>>You are right - the condition of Muslims in India is not good. Their
>>>> situation is more like the situation of African American community in
>>>> the USA. Just like US African Americans, Muslims tend to consider
>>>> themselves as victims also, no matter where they are. They tend to
>>>> blame every thing on the victimhood. This state of mind is bound to
>>>> affect morale, self-esteem, and success in life. Vested interest groups
>>>> take advantage of their state of mind, and use it in their favor. West
>>>> Bengal is flooded with Madrassas. If you spend so much of your adult
>>>> life earning an education that is not usable to make a living, you can't
>>>> expect to be successful in life. Can you? Many Hindus from West
>>>> Bengal complain about so many Madrassa educated Muslims, who can't do
>>>> anything in the society, except subversive activities. These are victims
>>>> of vested interest groups. I tell them, if those peope choose such
>>>> impoverish lifestyle – what can you do for them?
> It's like people are opting for meager life-style. It is hard to
> understand. That's why - I don't like religion at all. Religion has brought
> us only despair and trouble on earth. That's a fact – no matter what your
> explanations are in favor of religion.
>>>>
>>>>Jiten Roy --- On Fri, 2/24/12, qar <qrahman@netscape.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>From: qar <qrahman@netscape.net>
>>>>>Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>>>To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
>>>>>Date: Friday, February 24, 2012, 7:01 AM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Want to add my two cents...
>>>>>
>>>>>There are no countries in this world who "Got it right" when it comes to
>>>>> have a "Perfect system". India enjoys a lot of advantage for being a
>>>>> democratic country and for having a strong press (Which occasionally
>>>>> defends common people!).
>>>>>
>>>>>Even those members of this forum knows a bit about USA knows it is also
>>>>> far from being perfect. It has a near perfect constitution but
>>>>> implementation of it often were influenced by culture and race
>>>>> relations. So dark skinned African-Americans had to wait hundreds of
>>>>> years to have the right to vote or sit in the same restaurant with
>>>>> white Americans. Women were given right to vote around 1920.
>>>>>
>>>>>The Indian "Muslim" story is similar. There are advantages for being
>>>>> part of India and at the same time historical discrimination is still
>>>>> there. Like most countries of the world these biases has been passed
>>>>> down from generations to
> generations. West Bengal is known to be a liberal state of India but the
> state of Muslims in that state is pretty bad. Not too long ago Muslim
> students had the change their names (A religion neutral names like Chowdhury
> or Halder) when applying for jobs or sitting for exams. Currently most
> Muslim men are so frustrated with the "System" that many of them stopped
> going to higher education. They go to big cities with some training on
> craftsmanship (Like Gold smith) and set up their own businesses. Lately many
> of them were harassed because Mumbai police assumed that they were from
> Bangladesh (Since they were Muslims from west Bengal). Having said that,
> things are gradually improving in India and denying it would not be fair.
> When Dilip Kumar (Actual name Yusuf Khan) started acting in movie he was
> "Forced" to change his name into a "Hindu name". Today Khans rule a great
> deal of Indian movie industry.
>>>>>
>>>>> Secular Indian philosophy has been a fertile ground for religious
>>>>> proselytizers, and Hindus have been the major victim of such activities
>>>>> due to their loose religious affiliation.
>>>>>>>>>>>> As you have pointed out the "Hindu culture" (It is not exactly a
>>>>>>>>>>>> religion in traditional sense) is fragmented by it's nature. It
>>>>>>>>>>>> only comes together when there is a common enemy (British
>>>>>>>>>>>> rulers). Discrimination of Hindus BY Hindus is more common than
>>>>>>>>>>>> discrimination by any other groups. From my personal experience,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I saw the Hindus from southern India never very comfortable with
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Northern people". Because of centuries of discriminatory
>>>>>>>>>>>> treatment they received from them. They do not embrace "Hindi
>>>>>>>>>>>> language" as shamelessly as a common Bengali Hindu or Muslim
>>>>>>>>>>>> would (We Bengalis always prefer foreign people, goods etc).
>>>>>>>>>>>> Today there are many Indian states they do not "FEEL" close to
>>>>>>>>>>>> Indian union as they should. So there are insurgencies and
>>>>>>>>>>>> unrest within Indian union. Christian missionaries take
>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage of this situation. They target the very people common
>>>>>>>>>>>> Indians looks down to. I heard about a statistics about Pakistan
>>>>>>>>>>>> as well. In Pakistan more
> people converted to Christianity in last 60 years than previous 200 years
> under British rule. The scholar who described it said, it was the fault of
> our "Privileged Muslims" who sunned Islamic teaching of treating ALL people
> with respect and dignity and opted for "Cultural orientation". So Hindus and
> Muslims who felt oppressed in "Islamic Pakistan" felt more comfortable being
> a Christian in it than staying Hindus or Muslims. It would be impolite for
> me as a Muslim to comment about Hindus in India but I bluntly say we Muslims
> failed to deliver teaching of Islam (Which I feel is beautiful) to most
> Muslims. Had Muslims practiced Islam properly, we Bengalis would not feel
> cheated by the Pakistanis. From Pakistani stand point it was a disaster in
> grand scale. I find it strange that the founding father of Pakistan was not
> even a practicing Muslim and he wanted to see a secular Pakistan which would
> provide safety to Muslims. Today the most popular politician
> in Pakistan is not a religious scholar but a former cricket player and NO
> ONE would mistake him for a Mullah (To say the least!!). Yeah truth is
> stranger than fiction! Today most Muslims (Like their Hindu
> brothers/sisters) feels very comfortable in victim hood. Where they feel
> "Others" and the whole world is conspiring against them and they are under
> assault. I do not think it is entirely true in most cases (Only cases like
> Iraq, Palestine are clear). Sadly Pakistan is obsessed with India and most
> Indians are afraid of Pakistanis as well. They are the same in most cases.
> India is a very imperfect democracy (With huge fault lines) but still it has
> better system than Pakistan or Bangladesh. We Bangladeshis we some cultural
> advantages though. Most Bangladeshis are peace loving people by nature and
> we are a small country. So all we need is solid leadership for couple of
> decade to get to our "Promise of Independence" ( Ekatturer shopner desh).
> Our common
> people have good relationship with both India and Pakistan. So we have the
> potential to play a leadership role in not only improving our country but to
> contribute greatly in regional Eco-system. So, when Bangladeshi politicians
> talk about the influence of Indian "Babus" or "Dadas" on Bangladeshi
> policies, they mean influence of Indian Hindus on Bangladesh; nothing can be
> further from the truth. >>>>>>>>> You are right to some point. But no one
> with even a little knowledge of our politics would not deny outside
> influences in our politics. You can read Indian newspapers few years ago and
> current news papers to see the difference as well. We live in an
> interdependent world, so I am not against having friendly relationship with
> India or any specific country but without wise leaders we stand to lose a
> lot if they are not careful while dealing with India or other foreign
> nations. Our current government gave golden opportunity to India for better
> relationship couple of years ago. But so far Indians are losing it and
> Indian bureaucracy is Indian's worst enemy. Our people are always ready to
> sacrifice for good relationship with India. But constant betrayal over the
> years eroded any credibility India had among common people. So politicians
> want to score points in this atmosphere. Politicians are unique breed and
> mostly work the same way all over the world. If you go to west Bengal you
> will hear similar untrue statement about Bangladesh and Muslims as well.
> Lastly I would encourage all of you NOT to give up on people of Bangladesh.
> They are good people and with good leadership they can do miracles. :-)
> Shalom!!
>>>>>-----Original Message----- From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com> To:
>>>>> mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Feb 24, 2012 8:31 am
>>>>> Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] FW: ধরা যাবে না, ছোঁয়া যাবে না, বলা যাবে না,
>>>>> এমন এক বিচার...!interesting poems by Dr Puspita
>>>>>
>>>>>Subimal Chakraborty asked: In what sense are the Hindus fragmented? And
>>>>> how is it impacting the Indian politics? If Hindus were not
>>>>> "fragmented", how could their influence be wider "in the Indian policy
>>>>> making?" With broader and solid unity would they have more "Hindu
>>>>> agenda" pushed forward? Roy has raised a very serious and thought
>>>>> provoking issue.
>>>>>You should be able to figure it out on your own. Anyway, Indian Hindus
>>>>> are fragmented by caste system, ethnicity, language, culture, economic
>>>>> opportunities, etc. Indian Hindus are more ethnically and culturally
>>>>> bound; they are only loosely bound to their religious affiliations.
>>>>> This is because – Hindu religious philosophy itself has boundless
>>>>> diversity, which cannot unite all Hindus. As a result, Indian
>>>>> Hindu-brotherhood cannot even get across their state boundaries, while
>>>>> Islamic brotherhood can transcend across the continental boundaries.
>>>>>Due to such disunity, Hindus have never been a major political force to
>>>>> sway Indian State policies solely towards their own interests. Even in
>>>>> West Bengal, Muslim voting-bloc decides the winners and losers, even
>>>>> though they are only ~20% of the population there. I think - such
>>>>> condition is a blessing in disguise; it is helping India to
>>>>> maintain her secular political system.
>>>>>Of course - where there is good there is bad also. Secular Indian
>>>>> philosophy has been a fertile ground for religious proselytizers, and
>>>>> Hindus have been the major victim of such activities due to their loose
>>>>> religious affiliation. Yes, it is true - if Hindus were strongly bound
>>>>> by religious united, there would have been more Hindu agenda, which
>>>>> would, obviously, go against the interest of other religious minority
>>>>> communities. The case in point is Pakistan, which had ~15% Hindu
>>>>> population in 1947, now ~1%. Therefore, from the religious minority
>>>>> point of view, secular Indian policy is a blessing. In fact, a secular
>>>>> political policy is the foundation of a true democratic system.
>>>>>My main point was to emphasize that Indian policies are influenced by
>>>>> secular interests of Hindu, Muslim, Shikh, Christian, and other
>>>>> communities. So, when Bangladeshi politicians talk about the influence
>>>>> of Indian "Babus" or "Dadas" on Bangladeshi policies, they mean
>>>>> influence of Indian Hindus on Bangladesh; nothing can be further from
>>>>> the truth. They never look back to see when the last time Hindus ruled
>>>>> India.
>>>>>Jiten Roy
>>>>>
>>>>>>Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
>>>>>>.
>
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