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Saturday, March 23, 2013

Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do (Re-sending)



Yes, I usually read my statements before sending - but sometime it could skip my senses though. I will try to remember your advice.

 

That statement about Bihari revenge may not be logistically correct, but it was correctly motivated by revenge from the point of view of Biharis. They were hell-bent to take revenge but they were not in a position to target Muslims at that time. They did target Awami Leaguers later on. 


As you know, in any political conflict in Bangladesh, first target always is the religious minority, especially Hindus. This has been a tradition in Bangladesh. That's exactly what happened at that time. Although the motive was revenge, shall we say misplaced-revenge, Hindus were the first victims. Biharis attacked Hindus first to achieve maximum gain with minimum pain.


This tradition is still going on ...


Jiten Roy



--- On Sat, 3/23/13, Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Sukhamaya Bain <subain1@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do (Re-sending)
To: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, March 23, 2013, 8:35 AM

 

(Please publish this one, discard the one I sent earlier. Thanks.)
 
First, let me advise Dr. Roy to look at his writings a bit more carefully before sending. The atrocities on the Hindus by the Biharis were no revenge, because the Hindus had not committed any such thing on the Biharis. The Bihari actions on the Hindus were purely hateful barbarities on innocent people.
 
Second, let me offer a bit of correction to another comment by Dr. Roy. Mr. Shaheen's 'murky understanding of the liberation war' is not 'due to his lack of first hand experiences of that period'; it is due to his lack of a rational education. An educated person does not need a firsthand experience to see a problem.
 
Now, let me make a few comments on Mr. Shaheen's comments.
 
Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh would not get together any time soon to break up India into several pieces; nor would a broken up India pave the way for a South Asian Union. While India has some Muslim-appeasing politicians, it also has a lot of smart people, including some Muslims, who would never form a union with tens of millions of hateful Islamic fanatics (mostly in Pakistan and Bangladesh). Those smart people are not likely to vanish even if India were to break up into many pieces.
 
It is utterly ignorant to suggest that RAW played a huge role in the break-up of Pakistan in 1971. India did play a decisive (bigger than huge) role openly in the break-up of Pakistan. However, that role had no chance of being played if the western Pakistani dictators had not unleashed their heinous military criminals on the unarmed civilians of East Bengal.
 
Pakistan 'started out as a secular democracy'- really?
 
Comparing the killings of Bangalees and Biharis is foolish and dishonest, if not criminal. Mostly innocent Bangalees were killed by a state's armed forces, whereas some innocent Biharis were killed by unruly mobs and vigilante groups. Bangalees were killed systematically by a hateful military with all the weapons in their disposal; and Biharis were killed unsystematically by a tiny fraction of the victimized population in anger with no arms depot in their disposal.
 
Why the Bangalees in West Pakistan were spared? The short answer would be that they were not a threat against the ruling military dictators.
 
'Even Israel did not go after Jewish collaborators; they stuck to the Nazis because they didn't want Jews to be divided against Jews' – what an absurd statement! Was there any Jewish collaborator who sent other Jews to the gas chamber? Mr. Shaheen claims that he is for human rights! Does he have a human sense? Well, he does not want Muslims to be divided against Muslims; but he needs to educate himself with the sense that Muslims could be united with love among themselves, as opposed to hatred against non-Muslims. Stupidity, hatred, dishonesty, unfairness, injustice and irresponsibility do not work very well for unity.
 
Sukhamaya Bain

 
===================================
From: Jiten Roy <jnrsr53@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
 
You said, "So good on us for continuing our tradition of revenge even after 42 years, on our fellow Bengalis who participated in crimes against Bengalis."

Is this your interpretation of the trial against humanity?
You really think that the purpose of these trials is to seek revenge. Very interesting! You should know - revenge usually does not need any trial. When victims carry out the punishment by themselves, it's revenge. But, when punishment is sought through the court system, it's not a revenge. It's called seeking justice for the crime. There is a huge difference. Your murky understanding of the liberation war is due to your lack of first hand experiences of that period.
You talked about Bihari victims. Yes, Bihari Colony in our town was also attacked before Pak-Military came to town. But, after the arrival of Pak-Military, Biharis took due revenge on Bangalees, especially Hindus. They looted and burned Hindu houses and business after the arrival of Pak-military. There are many more Bihari collaborators also, who are mostly unaccounted for.
Jiten Roy
 
--- On Fri, 3/22/13, Ali Shaheen <alishaheen2010@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ali Shaheen <alishaheen2010@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
To: "Shah Deeldar" <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>, "pfc-friends@googlegroups.com" <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>, "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>, "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, March 22, 2013, 2:03 PM

 
Thanks for acknowledging that RAW and CIA were involved in Pakistani politics.  Would you also be willing to consider that there are complex reasons why a country breaks up and these cannot be summed up into one cause such as absence of democracy.  If that was so, Saudi Arabia should be in pieces.  And I pray that one day it will be :).

Pakistan was created for failure and it began breaking up right away.  Remember Junagadh and Hyderabad, which were swallowed by India?  And to this day Pakistan has not received its fair share of assets following Partition.  So India has been a bit of a bully in the region, sort of like the U.S. in many parts of the world.  If Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh were to get together and break India into several more pieces we could seriously think about a South Asian Union, like the European Union.  But I digress.

There were other reasons for the break up of Pakistan such as its refusal to recognize language rights until it was too late, its economic exploitation of East Pakistan, its refusal to share power and resources.  The failure to honour the results of free and fair elections which gave AL a majority, plus the genocidal army action that followed were the immediate cause of the break-up.  At the same time RAW/India also played a huge role in the break-up.  In poor countries intelligence services are more effective because the people can be easily exploited and anger channeled to suit the powers that be.

Bangladesh nearly evolved into a military dictatorship too - so lets be cautious.  And considering what is happening right now in BD, let's keep our fingers really tightly crossed that we don't go that route again.  Pakistan did not "just" evolve into a military dictatorship, it started out as a secular democracy.  You say the US doesn't care about democracy in Pakistan.  You could be  right, but it did play a role in ensuring that this civilian government, with all its corruption, complete its tenure.  Also the US did seem to care a lot about democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan didn't it? :P  Or does the US prefer to deal with dictators who do their bidding?  We aren't that naive I'm sure.

Because human rights is a particular interest of mine, I'm curious as to the ways in which we rationalize away our own complicity in war crimes and genocide.  Our group has already had a discussion of the definitions of these terms to show how we use creative definitions to avoid responsibility, so I won't re-hash it.  You can google the UN definitions.  In your case, the issue is not one of definition, but genocide denial, so let's discuss that.

Bangladesh claims 3 million were killed by the army, Pakistan claims it was 300,000.  Pakistan also claims that 10 lakh Urdu speaking (which also included Biharis) were killed.  Let's say these figures are inflated.  Even if 1 lakh were killed, it was one too many.  Surely you can't be suggesting that Bengali lives are more precious than Urdu speaking ones!

You seem to want to minimize this genocide by calling it "revenge killings".  Does "revenge" somehow justify it?  Revenge against whom?  Should we be killing peaceful Urdu speaking folk who did not want to separate from Pakistan just because they were on the wrong side?  I can understand revenge against the Pakistan army.  Why should the Urdu speaking be killed simply because they were loyal to Pakistan?  Either we move on from the madness and mayhem of 1971 and build our country or we hold everyone accountable for their actions in the name of justice.  Going after some, on the basis of insufficient evidence after 42 years, while giving others a free pass for similar crimes in similar circumstances is not "justice".

Interestingly enough I was living in West Pakistan at the time.  Not a single Bengali was killed there.  We were treated with consideration by our neighbours and servants.  We were sitting ducks, yet nothing happened even after news of Urdu speaking killings and refugees began to surface in Pakistan.  I often wonder why we were spared.  I have reached two conclusions:  (1) the people of Pakistan had no animosity towards the people of Bangladesh (2) we were living in pre-madrasah times.  The same people are not showing the same kindness towards Shias and Christians.  Times have changed and with the spread of Wahabism Muslims are becoming more intolerant.  We in Bangladesh had better watch out for those madrasahs too.

Perhaps you are not aware, or perhaps we have all gone into collective denial, but the first killings of Urdu speaking happened before March 25th. when 50 workers were killed in the Adamjee Jute Mill. What revenge was that killing about?  And the killings continued after independence.  I'm glad Pakistan did not take revenge on the Bengalis living in West Pakistan because I would not be writing this e-mail today. 

So good on us for continuing our tradition of revenge even after 42 years, on our fellow Bengalis who participated in crimes against Bengalis.  We don't have to worry about members of AL who participated in crimes against the Urdu speaking.  Revenge is sweet for one side only.  But you know what!  Even Israel did not go after Jewish collaborators, they stuck to the Nazis because they didn't want Jews to be divided against Jews.  If you really want to go after infamous characters with blood on their hands, look for them in Pakistan's army's 1971 leadership, go after Bengali collaborators and those who killed the Urdu speaking if you still have the evidence after 42 years.  But wait, the Pakistani army might say they were just taking revenge for the Urdu speaking killings prior to March 25th. How will we argue with that if revenge is what makes the world go round.
Thank you too for hearing me out.  


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