I do see, you are suffering from the famous Stockholm syndrome. Why Pakistanis did not torment you in 1971 is pretty obvious. In such scenario, many Pak Bengalees would have crossed the Indian border (actually some did) and Pakistan would have been on the spot right away. Why would it kill Bengalees in Pakistan when they were trying to suppress the East Pakistani Bengalees in the East? Why open two fronts? They tried to make you believe that everything was fine and well in the East. And, you bought it. As Mr. Roy wrote, you did not have the first hand knowledge about of what really happened in East Pakistan at that time. Well, you are not alone. However, it is not late to read history and get to know the truth.
Why countries break apart is beyond my expertise. To me, Pakistan was basically an anomaly right from the beginning. Two different people sharing the same religion wanted to build a prosperous Islamic nation with a long distant relationship? The dream never came to fruition. The country was not a secular country because it was created for the Muslims and the constitution was basically an Islamic one. Even that would have been fine if they really followed the Islamic principles. They did not and nobody really does. The sermon is a pure baloney and have been preached frequently with out any practical use. West Pakistanis wanted a colony in the East and they were fine with us as long as we did not protest against their discriminatory rule. The religious glue was not enough to hold the humpty dumpty together.
I see you got some grudge against the Indians because they have done better and they behaved as a bully in the region. Well, that is the nature of the beast. If Pakistan were bigger, it would have behaved exactly the same way as China has been behaving in the Asia pacific. Pakistan did get adequate compensation on the insistence of Mr. Gandhi. He threatened to kill himself unless money were given to Pakistan. Indian government gave in to his demand (reference is available if you care) and the account was settled. With the same breath, we have gotten zero compensation when we split from Pakistan. That did not cross your mind?
OK, India is too big and let us cut it into its proper size and have EU like country? It would have been a great idea if EU were truly a functional entity. Many of its client states are basically bankrupt and constantly being bailed out by hardworking Germans. So, now that Pakistan has failed dismally, it would go for another EU like institution so that it can be bailed out? Why would Indians should carry that stupid burden? It has been sixty years and countries have chosen different paths and they have gotten different results. Let them learn from their past mistakes and move on. If India is broken apart by its own faulty policies, that would be their problem but I would not hold my breath to see that to happen any time soon. All subcontinental countries have their own national interests and they should follow that diligently. I do not think ganging against Indians would do much good for us. Their states are pretty much autonomous and can easily called as separate states. Can you break them apart more and force them to merge with Pakistan, Bangladesh and Srilanka? Why would they choose the looser?
You talk about non-Bengalees in Bangladesh and most of them would love to migrate to Pakistan even today. Pakistan talks too much about Muslim brotherhood and it's love for fellow Muslims but it won't take a single non-Bengalee from Bangladesh. That shows the true nature of a pathological liar. Thank you.
-SD
From: Ali Shaheen <alishaheen2010@gmail.com>
To: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>; "pfc-friends@googlegroups.com" <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>; "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>; "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
Why countries break apart is beyond my expertise. To me, Pakistan was basically an anomaly right from the beginning. Two different people sharing the same religion wanted to build a prosperous Islamic nation with a long distant relationship? The dream never came to fruition. The country was not a secular country because it was created for the Muslims and the constitution was basically an Islamic one. Even that would have been fine if they really followed the Islamic principles. They did not and nobody really does. The sermon is a pure baloney and have been preached frequently with out any practical use. West Pakistanis wanted a colony in the East and they were fine with us as long as we did not protest against their discriminatory rule. The religious glue was not enough to hold the humpty dumpty together.
I see you got some grudge against the Indians because they have done better and they behaved as a bully in the region. Well, that is the nature of the beast. If Pakistan were bigger, it would have behaved exactly the same way as China has been behaving in the Asia pacific. Pakistan did get adequate compensation on the insistence of Mr. Gandhi. He threatened to kill himself unless money were given to Pakistan. Indian government gave in to his demand (reference is available if you care) and the account was settled. With the same breath, we have gotten zero compensation when we split from Pakistan. That did not cross your mind?
OK, India is too big and let us cut it into its proper size and have EU like country? It would have been a great idea if EU were truly a functional entity. Many of its client states are basically bankrupt and constantly being bailed out by hardworking Germans. So, now that Pakistan has failed dismally, it would go for another EU like institution so that it can be bailed out? Why would Indians should carry that stupid burden? It has been sixty years and countries have chosen different paths and they have gotten different results. Let them learn from their past mistakes and move on. If India is broken apart by its own faulty policies, that would be their problem but I would not hold my breath to see that to happen any time soon. All subcontinental countries have their own national interests and they should follow that diligently. I do not think ganging against Indians would do much good for us. Their states are pretty much autonomous and can easily called as separate states. Can you break them apart more and force them to merge with Pakistan, Bangladesh and Srilanka? Why would they choose the looser?
You talk about non-Bengalees in Bangladesh and most of them would love to migrate to Pakistan even today. Pakistan talks too much about Muslim brotherhood and it's love for fellow Muslims but it won't take a single non-Bengalee from Bangladesh. That shows the true nature of a pathological liar. Thank you.
-SD
"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: Ali Shaheen <alishaheen2010@gmail.com>
To: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>; "pfc-friends@googlegroups.com" <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>; "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>; "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
Thanks for acknowledging that RAW and CIA were involved in Pakistani politics. Would you also be willing to consider that there are complex reasons why a country breaks up and these cannot be summed up into one cause such as absence of democracy. If that was so, Saudi Arabia should be in pieces. And I pray that one day it will be :).
Pakistan was created for failure and it began breaking up right away. Remember Junagadh and Hyderabad, which were swallowed by India? And to this day Pakistan has not received its fair share of assets following Partition. So India has been a bit of a bully in the region, sort of like the U.S. in many parts of the world. If Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh were to get together and break India into several more pieces we could seriously think about a South Asian Union, like the European Union. But I digress.
There were other reasons for the break up of Pakistan such as its refusal to recognize language rights until it was too late, its economic exploitation of East Pakistan, its refusal to share power and resources. The failure to honour the results of free and fair elections which gave AL a majority, plus the genocidal army action that followed were the immediate cause of the break-up. At the same time RAW/India also played a huge role in the break-up. In poor countries intelligence services are more effective because the people can be easily exploited and anger channeled to suit the powers that be.
Bangladesh nearly evolved into a military dictatorship too - so lets be cautious. And considering what is happening right now in BD, let's keep our fingers really tightly crossed that we don't go that route again. Pakistan did not "just" evolve into a military dictatorship, it started out as a secular democracy. You say the US doesn't care about democracy in Pakistan. You could be right, but it did play a role in ensuring that this civilian government, with all its corruption, complete its tenure. Also the US did seem to care a lot about democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan didn't it? :P Or does the US prefer to deal with dictators who do their bidding? We aren't that naive I'm sure.
Because human rights is a particular interest of mine, I'm curious as to the ways in which we rationalize away our own complicity in war crimes and genocide. Our group has already had a discussion of the definitions of these terms to show how we use creative definitions to avoid responsibility, so I won't re-hash it. You can google the UN definitions. In your case, the issue is not one of definition, but genocide denial, so let's discuss that.
Bangladesh claims 3 million were killed by the army, Pakistan claims it was 300,000. Pakistan also claims that 10 lakh Urdu speaking (which also included Biharis) were killed. Let's say these figures are inflated. Even if 1 lakh were killed, it was one too many. Surely you can't be suggesting that Bengali lives are more precious than Urdu speaking ones!
You seem to want to minimize this genocide by calling it "revenge killings". Does "revenge" somehow justify it? Revenge against whom? Should we be killing peaceful Urdu speaking folk who did not want to separate from Pakistan just because they were on the wrong side? I can understand revenge against the Pakistan army. Why should the Urdu speaking be killed simply because they were loyal to Pakistan? Either we move on from the madness and mayhem of 1971 and build our country or we hold everyone accountable for their actions in the name of justice. Going after some, on the basis of insufficient evidence after 42 years, while giving others a free pass for similar crimes in similar circumstances is not "justice".
Interestingly enough I was living in West Pakistan at the time. Not a single Bengali was killed there. We were treated with consideration by our neighbours and servants. We were sitting ducks, yet nothing happened even after news of Urdu speaking killings and refugees began to surface in Pakistan. I often wonder why we were spared. I have reached two conclusions: (1) the people of Pakistan had no animosity towards the people of Bangladesh (2) we were living in pre-madrasah times. The same people are not showing the same kindness towards Shias and Christians. Times have changed and with the spread of Wahabism Muslims are becoming more intolerant. We in Bangladesh had better watch out for those madrasahs too.
Perhaps you are not aware, or perhaps we have all gone into collective denial, but the first killings of Urdu speaking happened before March 25th. when 50 workers were killed in the Adamjee Jute Mill. What revenge was that killing about? And the killings continued after independence. I'm glad Pakistan did not take revenge on the Bengalis living in West Pakistan because I would not be writing this e-mail today.
So good on us for continuing our tradition of revenge even after 42 years, on our fellow Bengalis who participated in crimes against Bengalis. We don't have to worry about members of AL who participated in crimes against the Urdu speaking. Revenge is sweet for one side only. But you know what! Even Israel did not go after Jewish collaborators, they stuck to the Nazis because they didn't want Jews to be divided against Jews. If you really want to go after infamous characters with blood on their hands, look for them in Pakistan's army's 1971 leadership, go after Bengali collaborators and those who killed the Urdu speaking if you still have the evidence after 42 years. But wait, the Pakistani army might say they were just taking revenge for the Urdu speaking killings prior to March 25th. How will we argue with that if revenge is what makes the world go round.
Thank you too for hearing me out.
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:
I did not say that RAW and CIA were not involved in Pakistani matters. That is their job as ISI is/was involved in Indian and Bangladeshi matters. My point was that those spy agencies are not the real villains why Pakistan has not evolved as a democratic country. Pakistani military wanted to have that way and US went along with that arrangement. Why would they care?
Should we blame Saudis for Shia/Ahmedia killings in Pakistan? I do not think so. Don't Pakistanis know who have been instigating this perpetual violence? These people are openly walking on the streets and raising money for their cause. They can stop this violence tomorrow if they want but they won't. That is the problem.
Yes, we should be vocal about any injustice in our country. There was only one genocide happened in Bangladesh and that had been perpetrated by Pak army with their collaborators. Revenge killing of non-Bengalees was a minor event that never reached to the level of genocide. If we want prosecute those killers, I got no problem. But we should do first thing first to deal with our infamous characters who got blood in their hands. Thank you.
-SD"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBSSent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 5:52 PM
From: Ali Shaheen <alishaheen2010@gmail.com>
To: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>; "pfc-friends@googlegroups.com" <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>; "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>; "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
If you think RAW and CIA are not, and were not, involved in Pakistan then there is not much more to be said. You did talk about genocide in Baluchistan and that is a valid concern. As is the killing of Shias and Christians. That Middle Ages thinking has been imported from Saudi Arabia - another reason why Pakistan would do better without foreign interference. And let's hope we can deal with the madrasahs in Bangladesh before we have a similar problem. BTW I hope you will be just as vocal about the genocide of Urdu speaking in Bangladesh and ask for justice for them in the war crimes tribunals too. You are right the Pakistani military is the elephant in the room - let's hope their next government does better.
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:04 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:Some people might still be living in the middle ages and that is the problem! I am sure you know exactly who live in what centuries in current Bangladesh. What I understood from your post is that it were CIA, RAW and other heinous spy agencies have had some thing to gain for not letting Pakistani democracy to flourish. That is pure rubbish. If Srilankans and Indians could stick to their democracies, why could not Pakistanis? Other needs to be blamed because Pakistanis loved their strong military men?
Pakistan broke apart because it did not have the democracy. The history will probably repeat itself again with Balochis taking their own path to independence.
I am glad that PPP could fulfill their full term but I am not sure whether civilian government had the real power. Pakistani military is still the elephant in the room. That is why Indians and others would rather deal with Pakistani military than Pakistani civilian government
-SD"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBSTo: Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com>
Cc: "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>; "pfc-friends@googlegroups.com" <pfc-friends@googlegroups.com>; "bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com" <bangladesh-progressives@googlegroups.com>; "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2013 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
Oh dear - I see that this is a wider group than pfc friends, but that's okay. Are you sure you are not still in the 20th. century? :) Actually I am Bangladeshi and have moved on from the past which is why I don't hold any grudges against Pakistan. I assure you it is very liberating to free oneself of that anger, though it wasn't easy, and I had to do a lot of self-therapy to get there. Since it is now 42 years since the military government of Pakistan committed genocide in our homeland, I am more interested in peace in South Asia where we don't go around destabilizing each other. I am hoping for India-Pakistan-Bangladesh unity. Besides I don't like kicking anyone, even an old enemy when they are down, nor do I hold anything against the people of Pakistan who are just as decent as the people of India and Bangladesh. Peace!On Mon, Mar 18, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Shah Deeldar <shahdeeldar@yahoo.com> wrote:This is 21st century my friend! Time to grow up and walk!
I hope you are not committing the same genocidal crimes in Balochistan as you have done in Bangladesh. Good luck with your democracy if you really got one?
-SD"All great truths begin as blasphemies." GBS
From: Ali Shaheen <alishaheen2010@gmail.com>
To: pfc-friends@googlegroups.com
Cc: "india-unity@yahoogroups.com" <india-unity@yahoogroups.com>; "mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com" <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 7:17 PM
Subject: [mukto-mona] Re: Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
Pakistan has just marked an important milestone by completing for the first time in its history, the full term of a democratically elected civilian government. Let's hope RAW and CIA give Pakistan and its people a chance to find their own way out of the many problems that have been created by foreign interference. And may the upcoming elections result in better leadership for Pakistan - Inshallah!
On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Farida Majid <farida_majid@hotmail.com> wrote:--http://pakpotpourri2.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/breaking-up-is-not-hard-to-do/
Breaking Up Is Not Hard to Do
Why the U.S.-Pakistani Alliance Isn't Worth the Trouble
By Husain Haqqani![HH]()
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