>>>>>>>>> ONLY when you take it out of context!!
I said, we need Islamic education and secular education. Which means math, physics, marketing etc beside religious education. It is NOT a zero sum game and I stand behind what I said. If you wish to spend your time searching for "Grammatical mistakes", you will find plenty but I would encourage you to try to catch the spirit of these words, it is not far from what you feel.
>>>>>>>>> Unless we have the right leadership, no system will work. Islam have been abused by corrupt people and we see the concept of "Democracy" have been hijacked by corrupt politicians as well. In order to enjoy fruit of our labor, we have to walk towards the right environment. Where rule of law will mean something. Where people can speak their mind without fearing for their lives or livelihood.
Therefore, we have to change ourselves FIRST before we want to pick a system for ourselves. In the early seventies, we had "BAKSHAL" party, which was a communist like one party system. It became so unpopular that even BAL does not support that concept.
In democracy, wish and aspiration of common people have to have some weight. Solution from outside cannot be inserted over our people.
As far as Islamic rule is concern, I think you did not understand my position. After analyzing many political system I feel, Islamic system gives us best solution. At the same time, I said at this time, we are NOT ready for it. Which means I am NOT advocating for it. However if you ask my opinions of political system, I'll give you the same answer.
We have to become much more honest, dedicated and God fearing before Islamic system can deliver any "Good" for us. So far most Islamic leaning parties have failed to project that image to common people. Specially they have to do much more to have confidante of non-Muslim population. As Muslims it is our DUTY to protect them and save them from any attacks on their lives and properties. Therefore, before we ask for rights, we have to become much more responsible and leave power hungry politics for now.
I understand you don't agree with me. Do understand, I always respected your opinions. I hope you will take a minute to understand what I am saying before you tell me what I "Must do" or "Must not do". :-)
As far as "Great religion" is concern, my statement did not come out as some "Blind supporter". Rather (Feel free to verify) Islam is the ONLY faith which has some benchmark about ruling a multi-faith country. It has codified laws that are very liberal. However I respect all of my non-Muslim friends and their preference for their faiths. But when it comes to ruling a country, no other faith have such a track record. So it cannot even be compared.
Jesus (PBUH) did not rule any country or even a small town. Moses (PBUH) had limited success in getting followers and did not rule any nation. All of them came for a tribe. ONLY Muhammad (PBUH) address all of humanity. So it is like comparing apples and oranges!!
ANYWAY, it is important to understand that, I am NOT advocating for any party or any religion here. Simply DISCUSSING this issue. NOTHING more.
4. As I have said before, any thing good in the Medina Charter or in any other historical documents have been captured in all the great constitutions without making specific mentions of them.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But the inspiration cannot be denied. Just read the US constitution. They wanted to keep religion separate but they were not against religion.
. You don't need to update the Medina Charter. You should rather work on updating the present constitution which has collected some g arbage over the years.
>>>>>>>> Dr. Kamal Hossain is still alive (One of the major constitution writers) but no one wants to listen to him. Because he is not a "Yes sir" or "Yes madam" person. He was kicked out of BAL few years ago. See if you can do something about that.
6. If you are really good with separation of church and state, please be a great advocate for it. Can you explain how Bangladeshi secularism has failed to focus on spiritual and moral guidance.
>>>>>>>>>> Personally I am comfortable with "Seperation of church and state". However if you ask me what is the best system, I'll give you the same answer. I am advocating neither system, just discussing to promote better UNDERSTANDING. I get a kick out of statements made by people who do not even understand what they love to criticize. So I am "Helping" people to become better critic!! :-D
7. With reference to prosecution of the war criminals, it is very likely that proper verdicts have not been given. Memory of the victims cannot lie. Improper verdicts can well be an AL-Jamat conspiracy! Who knows! It is all power game. ( I am also not happy with all the excesses AL is doing. We deserve more restraints. ) A third party had to come forward. We are proud of them. Good thing is that AL is supporting them. BNP has betrayed.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I can understand where you are coming from. However we have BAL administration now. So the "Protest" should be directed at our ministry of law (Which controls courts) IF you have strong feelings against verdicts. BNP is not a party to the whole thing. They did not say anything against the tribunal. ONLY wanted to have transparent "Due process". I support the US position in it. US state department encouraged an "Public trial". Where the whole process would be televised. So any future criminals will think twice before they attack innocent civilians.
There are lot of people who do not agree with BNP steps and next election will hopefully give us a clearer picture about it.
8. Islamic secular rule (an oxymoron) cannot promote fairness and justice for all. Some groups have to be second class citizens--no doubt about it.
>>>>>>>>>> Few months ago, member Jiten Roy gave us a long list of persecution of Hindus in last four years. We all know what proceeded during BNP era. I said as per Islam the state is RESPONSIBLE to guarantee safety and security of non-Muslim citizens. The talk about second class citizen comes from lesser informed Muslims and non-Muslims.
As I said, in SECULAR west Bengal over 26% of population are Muslims. They get around 2% of government jobs. They cannot even rent a house in Kolkata when the landlord come to know about faith of tenants. Do understand, west bengal is considered as a "Liberal" state. Just imagine how Muslims are treated in rest of India.
If you can present a better alternative (That has some history of success) to Islamic rule, I am open for it.
>>>>>>>>> I am sorry to say, it DOES matter. If I want to have an opinion about the USA, I should know a little bit about it. Otherwise, I'll part of the ignorant crowd who see image of people on the moon.
I do not care what Pakistanis think. I have some Pakistani friends and they respect me. I don't agree with everything a "Pakistani" says, so we disagree in some areas.
As per Islam, Allah (SWT) will NOT ask me if I followed Pakistan. Rather I'll be asked if I tried stay true to the Qur'an and Sunnah. If Pakistan have some good practice (Independent judicial system), we can follow it. If US has good practices, we can follow it. If China has some practice, we can follow it. It will NOT make us lesser Muslims, as long we stay true to fundamentals of Islam.
Exactly, there are Scholars who do not agree with certain interpretations of Jamaat. Mostly dealing with politics and role of state. I don't see Jammat as a big enough player to worry about. They have to sort out their role during 71 to move forward. Until then lot of people have some questions about them.
Shalom!
From: Subimal Chakrabarty <subimal@yahoo.com>
To: mukto-mona <mukto-mona@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 15, 2013 4:14 am
Subject: Re: [mukto-mona] Re: এই জলে আগুন জ্বলে
2. You have love for what is happening in Malaysia, Turkey, and Egypt. What is your opinion about the US (probably your adopted country) and Bangladesh (your motherland) (1972) constitutions? Don't you think that they are better than or at least as good as those of Malayasia, Turkey, and Egypt? Why can't you accept the principle of "separation of church and state"? I don't understand how you prefer, for example, the Muslim Brotherhood (primarily for the Sunni) to the secular rules which theoretically provide equal rights to all citizens. Admittedly even a secular constitution is not perfect. Why can't we build on what we have in such constitutions? Medina Charter happened 1500 hundred years ago. Since then we have advanced and more progressive thoughts. Abolition of slavery and expanded women's rights are two of them. Whatever is good in Medina Charter, I am sure, has been captured in the great constitutions of the world. Why do we have to stick to only the Medina Charter exclusively?
>>>>>>>>>>>> You probably forgot that, earlier I mentioned Bangladesh needs to be little more "Evolved" before it is ready for Islamic rule. We need more education for Muslims and (If it ever happens) future leaders have to be very careful about their responsibilities forwards all citizens. Islam is less about rights and stresses more about responsibilities. Some how this part of Islam is lost among our current Islamic leaders.
I have NOT endorsed the brotherhood BUT I do like that, they waited seventy years and came to power via election. I also like the fact that, their leaders are much less selfish and well educated. They are working with US state department to avoid previous mistakes and it is an encouraging sign.
Medina charter is a 1400 year old constitution. Like the US constitution, it can be "Updated" but like all moral charters, it can a baseline for our future. It has all fundamental needs of modern time, just the application part needs to be examine and Islam DOES permit that sort of interpretation.
Let me make it VERY clear that, I am comfortable with separation of Church and state. However I feel Islam has the best answer for our needs. Nothing more. Secularism have been tried and it does not focus on spiritual and moral guidance of modern people and Islam can offer some "Update" on secular models. Again personal opinion ONLY....
3. This is a time to strongly specifically condemn Jamat-Shibir's heinous activities which you seem to be unwiling to do. This is also the time to criticize BNP for its present role with respect to trial of the war criminals and its position on Jamat-Shibir's heinous activities. One will not do it only if he or she is allied with Jamat-BNP politics. You need to understand that this is a serious moment and it has great implications for our great spirits of the liberation war.
>>>>>>>> People of Bangladesh gave a HUGE mandate to our government on that issue during last election. I do believe in law and order and we the people have done our part. It is job of our elected administration to implement their mandate. We live in a FREE country now and I don't think we should run to streets over and over simply to implement what has been accepted by the majority of people. It is job of government prosecution team to make the case against Jamaat and court will do the rest.
4. I feel good when you say, "However if you want to speak about Jamaat, I do understand where you are coming from." Yes, I come from the big forum which believes in the great spirits (secularism is one of them) of 1971 liberation struggle. Are you coming from a different place? Do you endorse Jamat's anti-Ahmadiya stance?
>>>>>>>>>> I am coming from a place which promotes FAIRNESS and JUSTICE for all. I have written extensively about Ahmadiya issue in this forum. You are welcome to read them. I do not like any type of violence against any faith groups. Ahmadiya sect is NO exception.
5. You are confusing between an Islamic rule and a Muslim rule. An Islamic rule is essentially biased against the religious minorities. Mujib was a Muslim ruler but he believed in the four state principles until the notorious 4th Amendment. Pakistan, an Islamic Republic, cannot have a non-Muslim President. Pakistan has declared Ahmadiyas non-Muslims. Muslim Brotherhood cannot have a woman President.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have been posting here for a while. It seems ( I put a lot of hours into it) you have been absorbed them!!
It is some of members in this forum, who make Pakistan and Jamaat as some entities who are representing Islam. I don't feel that way. Jamaat is a political party with religious leaning. They should be treated like any other parties and if they promote violence, they should be punished (Like rest of the political parties).
You have to ask Pakistan why did they declared Ahmadiya's non-Muslim. NOT me!!
Just curious, how much do you know about Ahmadiya's? IF you feel, it was unfair for Pakistan, what are your reasons?
>>>>>>>>> Absolutely. However fundamentals does not change. Thou shall not steal (From Old testament) is still a good law, albeit it is thousands of years old.
__._,_.___
****************************************************
Mukto Mona plans for a Grand Darwin Day Celebration:
Call For Articles:
http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=68
http://mukto-mona.com/banga_blog/?p=585
****************************************************
VISIT MUKTO-MONA WEB-SITE : http://www.mukto-mona.com/
****************************************************
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
-Beatrice Hall [pseudonym: S.G. Tallentyre], 190
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
__,_._,___
Saturday, March 16, 2013
Re: [mukto-mona] Re: এই জলে আগুন জ্বলে
The phrase "Islamic secular" is an oxymoron.
2. With regard to your comment on Muslim Brotherhood, my response is still item no. 1 above.
3. Please do not advocate for Islamic rule in Bangladesh. That would be a worst form of communalism and sectarianism. Your suggested evolutionary path will bring Bangladesh to a horrible state. Please build on 1972 constitution. Islam is a great religion, so are Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity. Let us not be selective and give our country of birth a particular religious color.
9. It does not matter how much I know about the Ahmadiy as. Who am I to declare them non-Muslims? Many Islamic scholars believe that Jamati interpretations of Islam are heretical. Many Pakistsnis believed and still believe that the Muslims in Bangladesh are not 'sachcha' Muslims.
-----Original Message-----
1. The phrase "Islamic secular" is an oxymoron.
2. With regard to your comment on Muslim Brotherhood, my response is still item no. 1 above.
3. Please do not advocate for Islamic rule in Bangladesh. That would be a worst form of communalism and sectarianism. Your suggested evolutionary path will bring Bangladesh to a horrible state. Please build on 1972 constitution. Islam is a great religion, so are Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity. Let us not be selective and give our country of birth a particular religious color.
4. As I have said before, any thing good in the Medina Charter or in any other historical documents have been captured in all the great constitutions without making specific mentions of them.
5. You don't need to update the Medina Charter. You should rather work on updating the present constitution which has collected some g arbage over the years.
6. If you are really good with separation of church and state, please be a great advocate for it. Can you explain how Bangladeshi secularism has failed to focus on spiritual and moral guidance.
7. With reference to prosecution of the war criminals, it is very likely that proper verdicts have not been given. Memory of the victims cannot lie. Improper verdicts can well be an AL-Jamat conspiracy! Who knows! It is all power game. ( I am also not happy with all the excesses AL is doing. We deserve more restraints. ) A third party had to come forward. We are proud of them. Good thing is that AL is supporting them. BNP has betrayed.
8. Islamic secular rule (an oxymoron) cannot promote fairness and justice for all. Some groups have to be second class citizens--no doubt about it.
9. It does not matter how much I know about the Ahmadiy as. Who am I to declare them non-Muslims? Many Islamic scholars believe that Jamati interpretations of Islam are heretical. Many Pakistsnis believed and still believe that the Muslims in Bangladesh are not 'sachcha' Muslims.
Best regards.
Sent from my iPhone
1. By saying that "primarily by ISI and initially backed by America. We know how that worked out", you have avoided answering my questions.
>>>>>>>>>> Only Mullah Omar can answer you the best. Rest are guess work. I don't prefer his interpretation of Sharia and if Afghanistan had a better educated leader, it would have been wonderful. All goes back to my consistent stress over Islamic and secular education. A leader has to have education on "Leadership" or at least have some exposure to it. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was very liberal for his time and that spirit needs to be in the hearts of future Islamic leaders.
6. If you read holy books critically, you will see that many of the teachings have to be reinterpreted in the light of the present context.
Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional